Sigh. I think perhaps, we are talking at cross-purposes and just frustrating one another. Because after reading the above, I do not believe we disagree on romance or how it should be viewed on a tv show or in a story.
Where I think we do disagree is in which relationship is the most interesting to follow and why. I think Angel is far more interesting when you remove Buffy from the mix. That the B/A relationship distracts from the analysis of Angel's character. His character is far more complex when you forget Buffy. He's less the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde cliche we see in Beauty and the Beasts. And I do agree, Spike is by far, more interesting when he is not with Buffy or not analyzed primarily in context with Buffy. The problem with analyzing either character in context with just Buffy is the tendency to romanticize the character, to excuse their faults.
Angel - is set up early on in BS1 as the worst out thing out there. He taught and created Spike and Dru. He was to stand at the Master's Right hand and was the Master's favorite son. But he got a gyspey blood curse guaranteed to make him suffer for the horrors he did. Angel is proud of being the worst thing ever, while at the same time deeply guilty and in pain over it. He wishes he didn't have a soul - "do you have any idea how hard it is to have done what I've done and to care?" Very complicated and dark character.
Spike likewise is a very complicated and dark character.
I find Angel and Spike's relationship to be far more interesting than Angel and Buffy's. Heck Angel and Darla were more interesting.
That is where you and I differ. You are as annoyed by the fixation on Buffy and Spike and why they should be so great together, as I am by the fixation on Buffy and Angel and why they should be together which shippers are prone to do and distract equally from any valuable analysis of Angel's character.
That said - my post above is not analysis of Angel's character nor Spike's - it was and I think I was pretty clear about it - a post about how Whedon satirizes romantic love specifically in the episodes of Beauty and the Beasts, IOHFY, and other episodes. It was in my lj, not on a posting board, and several people enjoyed it, actually everyone but two appeared to. It was also lj-cut, so I didn't make you read all of it. If you didn't enjoy it, fine. If you disagree, fine. But hey, I stand by the post and why I wrote it - which was to discuss how untempered love or letting love rule you is a destructive thing and why I'm loving my re-watch of the series.
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Where I think we do disagree is in which relationship is the most interesting to follow and why. I think Angel is far more interesting when you remove Buffy from the mix. That the B/A relationship distracts from the analysis of Angel's character. His character is far more complex when you forget Buffy. He's less the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde cliche we see in Beauty and the Beasts. And I do agree, Spike is by far, more interesting when he is not with Buffy or not analyzed primarily in context with Buffy. The problem with analyzing either character in context with just Buffy is the tendency to romanticize the character, to excuse their faults.
Angel - is set up early on in BS1 as the worst out thing out there. He taught and created Spike and Dru.
He was to stand at the Master's Right hand and was the Master's favorite son. But he got a gyspey blood curse guaranteed to make him suffer for the horrors he did.
Angel is proud of being the worst thing ever, while at the same time deeply guilty and in pain over it.
He wishes he didn't have a soul - "do you have any idea how hard it is to have done what I've done and to care?" Very complicated and dark character.
Spike likewise is a very complicated and dark character.
I find Angel and Spike's relationship to be far more interesting than Angel and Buffy's. Heck Angel and Darla were more interesting.
That is where you and I differ. You are as annoyed by the fixation on Buffy and Spike and why they should be so great together, as I am by the fixation on Buffy and Angel and why they should be together which shippers are prone to do and distract equally from any valuable analysis of Angel's character.
That said - my post above is not analysis of Angel's character nor Spike's - it was and I think I was pretty clear about it - a post about how Whedon satirizes romantic love specifically in the episodes of Beauty and the Beasts, IOHFY, and other episodes. It was in my lj, not on a posting board, and several people enjoyed it, actually everyone but two appeared to. It was also lj-cut, so I didn't make you read all of it. If you didn't enjoy it, fine. If you disagree, fine. But hey, I stand by the post and why I wrote it - which was to discuss how untempered love or letting love rule you is a destructive thing and why I'm loving my re-watch of the series.