The episode you mean is called Origin, the device Wesley shatters is an Orion's window
Ah, thanks. For some reason I had separated those as two different episodes in my head. I don't know why. ;-)
I wouldn't say "anyone else", though I agree on the "stranger" part.
No, I agree - I tried to change that halfway through the sentence, but forgot to change the "anyone" bit. As aycheb stated above, we occasionally fall into the habit of "over-stating" things on lj. ;-)
Angel would have done it for anyone that he felt was his responsibility and/or was extreemly close to, although "responsibility" is the operative term here. It's how I've fanwanked the fact that he never staked Dru or Spike and looked for ways to get them out of trouble.
Something I do recall is that Tim Minear (who by all I've heard is the primary author of the Angel-Darla-Connor storylines, so I'm not sure how much this counts as a Joss Whedon tale anyway)
True. How much of Angel was Whedon..is questionable. I actually have similar questions regarding Buffy. Both felt more collaborative. And I think sometimes we give Whedon too much credit (but then I've seen things he's done without that level of collaboration and they don't stack up quite as well.)
says on the Home audio commentary that the original plan (back when they didn't know Charisma Carpenter was pregnant and s4 was still in the planning stage) was that de-possessed Cordelia, not Connor, would kill Jasmine
Remember that too - which was true and on the DVD commentary. Also remember a rumor (which may or may not be true), again stated by Minear in some interview somewhere, that originally Cordelia was supposed to be the Big Bad and get killed by Connor at the end. But Charisma got pregnant and it just didn't work. The other rumor was that Doyle would have come back as a big bad, if Glenn Quinn had still been around. (Not sure if either of these are true.)
the writers changed their mind, and decided that not only would Connor live but that, ironcially, this incredibly damaged, murderous child would end up as the one person who makes it out of the show definitely alive and with hope for the future.
An interesting writing choice and it works in a "noir" series, because typically that's what happens. I've always found it ironic that Angel corrupted everyone who saught shelter with him, as opposed to redeeming them (with the possible exception of Faith), and they all died horribly. But hey he still got his "shanshue" in the end - which was "Connor's magical redemption". Actually Connor was the shanshue.
From one perspective (not sure if its Watsonian or Doylist) I can't help but appreciate and admire the choice - it's neatly ironic, and ambiguous as well. Also tragic depending on the pov. I remember laughing my head off - when the moderator of the fan discussion board I was on at the time, remarked:"Okay, I didn't want them to kill off Connor...but that doesn't mean I wanted them to kill off everyone else!") It's highly ironic - that all of Angel's best buds, the one's who fought for him, his Willow, Giles and Xander, are dead by the end of S5. (Doyle, Fred, Cordy, and Wes).
From another perspective...and I'm guessing this is why the writers made the decision they did...I can't help but be disturbed by the outcome. I think it is meant to be morally ambigous and dark. It's a horror show after all.
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Ah, thanks. For some reason I had separated those as two different episodes in my head.
I don't know why. ;-)
I wouldn't say "anyone else", though I agree on the "stranger" part.
No, I agree - I tried to change that halfway through the sentence, but forgot to change the "anyone" bit. As aycheb stated above, we occasionally fall into the habit of "over-stating" things on lj. ;-)
Angel would have done it for anyone that he felt was his responsibility and/or was extreemly close to, although "responsibility" is the operative term here. It's how I've fanwanked the fact that he never staked Dru or Spike and looked for ways to get them out of trouble.
Something I do recall is that Tim Minear (who by all I've heard is the primary author of the Angel-Darla-Connor storylines, so I'm not sure how much this counts as a Joss Whedon tale anyway)
True. How much of Angel was Whedon..is questionable. I actually have similar questions regarding Buffy. Both felt more collaborative.
And I think sometimes we give Whedon too much credit (but then I've seen things he's done without that level of collaboration and they don't stack up quite as well.)
says on the Home audio commentary that the original plan (back when they didn't know Charisma Carpenter was pregnant and s4 was still in the planning stage) was that de-possessed Cordelia, not Connor, would kill Jasmine
Remember that too - which was true and on the DVD commentary. Also remember a rumor (which may or may not be true), again stated by Minear in some interview somewhere, that originally Cordelia was supposed to be the Big Bad and get killed by Connor at the end. But Charisma got pregnant and it just didn't work. The other rumor was that Doyle would have come back as a big bad, if Glenn Quinn had still been around.
(Not sure if either of these are true.)
the writers changed their mind, and decided that not only would Connor live but that, ironcially, this incredibly damaged, murderous child would end up as the one person who makes it out of the show definitely alive and with hope for the future.
An interesting writing choice and it works in a "noir" series, because typically that's what happens. I've always found it ironic that Angel corrupted everyone who saught shelter with him, as opposed to redeeming them (with the possible exception of Faith), and they all died horribly. But hey he still got his "shanshue" in the end - which was "Connor's magical redemption". Actually Connor was the shanshue.
From one perspective (not sure if its Watsonian or Doylist) I can't help but appreciate and admire the choice - it's neatly ironic, and ambiguous as well. Also tragic depending on the pov. I remember laughing my head off - when the moderator of the fan discussion board I was on at the time, remarked:"Okay, I didn't want them to kill off Connor...but that doesn't mean I wanted them to kill off everyone else!") It's highly ironic - that all of Angel's best buds, the one's who fought for him, his Willow, Giles and Xander, are dead by the end of S5. (Doyle, Fred, Cordy, and Wes).
From another perspective...and I'm guessing this is why the writers made the decision they did...I can't help but be disturbed by the outcome. I think it is meant to be morally ambigous and dark. It's a horror show after all.