Udate on the LJ User Agreement

[shadowkat]

So, uhm, update on the LJ situation. I did a little research during lunch at work. One of my co-workers is a) Russian, and b) has an old LJ account. Also he's up on the news in Russia.

According to my co-worker LJ has been having issues with a lot of lawsuits concerning people illegally sharing other people's posts, without credit. Mainly politically sensitive posts. Nothing has come of them, but it's been an issue. He says with all the bribes and corruption in the court system, the lawsuits don't really go anywhere. He said that unless you were writing a lot of political posts or Russian posts, not to worry about it. He doesn't use his lj account.

I also googled the law on contracts in foreign languages, and discovered that yes, they are legal and stand up in a court of law. As long as the contract states which language version is the valid one. If it's silent, than not valid.
Actually found a legal comment thread that I found rather amusing due to all the disclaimers, that yes, a contract that is in a foreign language other than English can stand up in a US court and if the agreement is based in the other country, that country's law governs. Way back in the day, I negotiated rights contracts with Chinese, French, German, and Russian journal publishers, who sent me translations of my contract in their language. I'd have to translate it. If it fit my contract's language -- then I'd sign with the caveat that the English version governed, since the contract's jurisdiction was the US.

That's why they state the Russian version is the legal one. However in talking to my co-worker, he said there weren't really any differences between the two. And the items that were concerning me, weren't really an issue unless I was living in Russia or the countries near and around Russia.

So...there you have it.

But...should I sign that user agreement? I don't want to. The legal professional in me is balking.

The problem is -- if I don't sign, I have little more than "lurking" privileges. I can read LJ, as long as I'm not logged in. The only way I can post and cross-post, not to mention manage my content and reply to comments is if I sign the user agreement. BTW, I can't even delete the journal or change anything in it. I've no access, except as a lurker. [ETA: You can comment under Open ID over there, just like you can here. So...you can still play on LJ, just don't log into it, and do it as an outsider.]

It's very hard for me as a contracts legal professional to sign an agreement that is in another language. When I was rights manager and had to deal with foreign contracts, I got them fully translated and ensured the clauses were the same. That said, I think my co-worker is right about this and we really have nothing to worry about. LJ is probably about as safe as DW or any other social media or journal outlet.

So again, what do you think?

Comments

[promethia_tenk]

Thank you for looking into this. I still haven't decided what to do at the moment, but it's good to have a little clearer information.

What you're stating is pretty much what I expected, tbh.

[shadowkat]

I'm struggling with it, mainly because I don't like signing an agreement that is governed by laws in another country - regarding my content.

Although my co-worker is right when he states that all someone has to do is a screenshot to copy and play with your content. But that is copyright infringement, and you can fight them on it. Which is apparently why LJ did their user agreement - due to lawsuits.

I'm on the fence. Not doing anything at the moment. It's not like there's a deadline. Also, you can still read your friend's page over there (as long as it's not flocked) and comment under the Open ID system. To be honest that's what I was doing for the most part anyhow. Cross-posting from here, and reading both.

The only downside here is I can't figure out how to post pics and videos.

[promethia_tenk]

Yeah, I haven't done anything yet either. I'm thinking probably I'll just walk away.

The only downside here is I can't figure out how to post pics and videos.
They've been working on image hosting for years. They finally made it live in a usable form just the other month. Info here:

https://dw-news.dreamwidth.org/2017/02/15/february-2017.html

I've not tried it yet, and currently it's quite a low storage maximum. But it's there.

I use postimage.io to host my stuff. I find it to be extremely lightweight and simple to use. But I never had a paid account over on LJ, so I've always needed external hosting.

[shadowkat]

At this point, looks like I'm walking away as well. Very glad that I had the foresight to transfer my entire LJ over here a while back.

Not sure that you can do that now...without signing that frigging agreement.

The only thing I'll lose is a few pics and a handful of posts that weren't cross-posted, nothing serious. But at least I know that they can't do anything with the content under the new agreement, since I didn't agree to it.

[promethia_tenk]

I just deleted. It did not make me sign. I use the Ghostery plugin to block most third-party scripts, so I suspect that suppressed the dialogue box, as others are suggesting is possible.

[shadowkat]

Thank you, I installed the Ghostery plugin, logged in, and deleted the journal, all comments, etc. It will be on the server for 60 days, but they can't do anything with it -- since I didn't agree to it. It's the best I can do.

[mefisto]

It's easy for me. As you know, I've never once posted on lj. I use it only to keep in touch with others and to comment occasionally. I see no reason to sign an agreement with clauses I can't understand, giving jurisdiction to a country the government of which I hate.

[shadowkat]

Yeah, and you can also comment via Open ID, so why bother?

It's harder for me. But, I agree with you. I'm thinking of just walking away. I've done that before. I have a lot of social media sites that I'm not using, hanging out there. Although none that I used as much as LJ. I've had that blog since 2003. And over 20,000 posts.

It's annoying. But I can't bring myself to sign an agreement with clauses I don't understand and a jurisdiction that I despise and consider unethical. Even if I know they could care less what I do or don't do. (They really don't care about us, they care about the Russian users.)

Beergoodfoamy actually wrote a succinct post on it -- where he told LJ how he felt, but they refused to let him post his comment or complain about it. He has issues with the same clauses we do -- Russian Laws that we don't know anything about. Under contract law -- there is a caveat that an agreement is not binding on a party or parties if the clauses aren't clearly spelled out and explained. Although not all courts or judges agree on that caveat. But if the agreement is vague or can be interpreted more than one way, or not clear...the clause may not hold up. So I have my doubts about the legitimacy of this -- it reminds me a lot of the "shrink-wrap" agreements we studied in law school, which often did hold up, but with certain caveats.

I'm tempted to throw the question at another co-worker, who is a lawyer. But he's been cranky lately and keeps trying to tease a rise out of me. So maybe not.

[mefisto]

The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of the people I used to follow on lj have either stopped posting or privatized their posts and not included me (not complaining, just observing). Over 90% of what I read is you.

[shadowkat]

Flattered. ;-)

Rahael stopped posting on LJ ages ago, as did Masq, Midnight Jane, and a few others. They only post on FB now.

CJL rarely posts, and only reviews.

APOTCH - rarely posts. He'll pop up but rarely.

I was lurking, but it's not that interesting and I've been talking with more people here. If people want to read me they can come here.

[cactuswatcher]

Because I was always logged in on LJ, I can't even log off to use Open ID without using a different computer.

I suggest your coworker is only right about safety so far as it would be reasonably easy to hack into DW's code its initial source being the same as LJ's. Thus posts here are not exactly completely secure. But the difference is that LJ now is pretty much fair game for foul play, and by approving the agreement you'd pretty much tell your own government you don't care. For your coworker the problem is for Russian citizens and that is certainly where the greatest danger lies. When LJ was bought I warned people about making political posts on LJ, not for ourselves but for the Russians who might want to keep up with our posts and get into dire trouble over what we might say. But assuming that is the limit of the problem is not healthy for citizens from any country.

The Russian government is guilty of some very severe recent bad behavior. Putin was KGB. Do not assume that his proxies would not use any information they can gather to their advantage against citizens of other nations in their own countries. It's happened in my life time under the Soviets even in the US and it can happen again. I'm neither paranoid nor kidding.

[cactuswatcher]

I have remembered now I can clear the cookies on this computer and be logged out. But I still won't be able to see friends' locked posts over there...

[shadowkat]

They apparently caught on to the JavaScript loophole and corrected it over there. But it may work using Ghosterly.
I got rid of my journal. It did not sit well with me that they could do what they wanted with my content and I couldn't.
I don't want my content sitting on a Russian owned site, with no ability to control it, unless I sign their agreement.

[spikewriter]

I'm walking away. Something in the new agreement just...grates. I've been thinking about it since my server moved to Russia, but this is just the final push. First, I'm going through and deleting the private and family posts. Sure, there's likely backups on their servers, but I'd rather delete those first before deleting the account and letting it hang in suspension for 30 days. And no, I don't think I'm being paranoid, either.

[shadowkat]

Agreed. I deleted my journal tonight. It's gone. It will hang in suspension for 60 days. But that's better than leaving it up there indefinitely.

Most of the stuff that was on it, I imported over here, so I didn't really lose anything. And everyone I care about -- is here, anyhow. Only a few aren't...and they rarely post, if at all.

[jesuswasbatman]

People have posted that it's possible to log-in and delete your journal without signing the agreement by turning off Javascript (and it's partly the fact that they make it impossible to even delete your journal without agreeing to the new ToC's that makes it seem so sinister).

[promethia_tenk]

Can confirm this is true. I use the Ghostery plugin to block most third-party scripts and was able to log in and delete my account without running into the dialogue box.

[shadowkat]

Thank you!!! I was able to go in and delete the whole thing, along with all comments made. I don't want my content on a site that is housed in Russia and under Russian law. I told them that -- that I was deleting because of the user agreement.

Sad. I've had that journal since 2003. Although I already imported all my content over here. Except for the most recent entries...or most recent comments. But it's not worth signing that agreement, which I am completely opposed to, in order to save them. I don't care that much about them. The important stuff has been saved.

[shadowkat]

Apparently the LJ coders found out about the Javascript and took care of that, per Barb's post.

But Ghosterly may still work.

I deleted mine before they figured it out. (I think they figured it out when a bunch of us snuck in under the wire, and deleted our journals without signing the agreement.)