Gotta say - I agree with the point about Faith. Because I like Five By Five a lot, and Sanctuary... But they get press as being the best Faith episodes. Whereas yeah, I actually prefer Who Are You - and it really is more important. Five By Five, Faith reverts to villainy so she can be saved by Angel - which O think is believable, but the point made in WAY about the way circumstances dictate one'a identity resonates more strongly with me than the point in 5X5 that it's hard to commit to bring good even when one has 'seen the light.' Both important ideas and good character work in both, but WAY resonates more, PLUS major Willow/Tara action (in more ways than one).
Wesley was much more interesting on Angel - but notably, he *was* redeemed on Buffy. He speed up at the battle and Buffy admitted tacitly that it was classy. He ends Grad Day a buffoon - but a buffoon who gave his all, and survives. Giles even makes a point of mentioning he is going to find him! So BtVS seven gives happier, more redemptive endings for Cordelia and Wesley in s3 than AtS does.
In a way, AtS really is almost against the idea that redemption ia possible. The only unqualified success in redemption is Faith - and as you say, it was WAY that did the big work of turning her around. Connor gets 'redeemed' - but not really; Angel replaced the real Connor with a completely different person. We see Angel's stance on Lindsey. Lilah remains damned. Harmony even gets a sort of happier ending on Buffy - she at least grows enough to recognize that Spike will never treat her right, and leaves. Her forward momentum, such as it was, in AtS s5, is reversed at the end.
Now this all feeds into the basic difference between the two shows - but it is interesting that people claim that AtS is a show more committed to the idea of redemption. Because basically - it essentially disproves redemption is possible. Angel fails when he decided his son was unsalvageable without rewriting him from the ground up - and permanently dooms everyone else in his life, including people like Lindsey who actually take their cues from Angel. (Lindsey is possessed with Angel - and I think him finding out that Angel took over W&H clues Lindsey in that Angel has given up on his epiphany, so Lindsey should give up on trying to change too. Lindsey, when he thinks Angel has a) turned a corner and b) respects him, in NFA, sees himself as a potential good guy. Lindsey is another classic narcissist - much less committed to goodness than Angel, but when Angel seems to think it's possible for Lindsey to be good, or acts like he does, Lindsey considers it. Like Angel, he is desperate for a place in the world, from W&H or Darla. That Angel so completely dismisses him is indicative of Angel's total lack of belief that Angel himself can ever change, IMO. It's not so much that I think he owes Lindsey better - well, he owes him better than executing him! - but mostly that he owes himself better.)
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branchandroot
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Date: 2014-10-12 05:07 am (UTC)Wesley was much more interesting on Angel - but notably, he *was* redeemed on Buffy. He speed up at the battle and Buffy admitted tacitly that it was classy. He ends Grad Day a buffoon - but a buffoon who gave his all, and survives. Giles even makes a point of mentioning he is going to find him! So BtVS seven gives happier, more redemptive endings for Cordelia and Wesley in s3 than AtS does.
In a way, AtS really is almost against the idea that redemption ia possible. The only unqualified success in redemption is Faith - and as you say, it was WAY that did the big work of turning her around. Connor gets 'redeemed' - but not really; Angel replaced the real Connor with a completely different person. We see Angel's stance on Lindsey. Lilah remains damned. Harmony even gets a sort of happier ending on Buffy - she at least grows enough to recognize that Spike will never treat her right, and leaves. Her forward momentum, such as it was, in AtS s5, is reversed at the end.
Now this all feeds into the basic difference between the two shows - but it is interesting that people claim that AtS is a show more committed to the idea of redemption. Because basically - it essentially disproves redemption is possible. Angel fails when he decided his son was unsalvageable without rewriting him from the ground up - and permanently dooms everyone else in his life, including people like Lindsey who actually take their cues from Angel. (Lindsey is possessed with Angel - and I think him finding out that Angel took over W&H clues Lindsey in that Angel has given up on his epiphany, so Lindsey should give up on trying to change too. Lindsey, when he thinks Angel has a) turned a corner and b) respects him, in NFA, sees himself as a potential good guy. Lindsey is another classic narcissist - much less committed to goodness than Angel, but when Angel seems to think it's possible for Lindsey to be good, or acts like he does, Lindsey considers it. Like Angel, he is desperate for a place in the world, from W&H or Darla. That Angel so completely dismisses him is indicative of Angel's total lack of belief that Angel himself can ever change, IMO. It's not so much that I think he owes Lindsey better - well, he owes him better than executing him! - but mostly that he owes himself better.)