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ATS Episode 5.8 Initial Thoughts
I loved this episode, which was written by Stephen DeKnight and David Fury. It's the episode I've been waiting for since the Fool for Love/Darla cross-over. Loved it.
Here are my initial thoughts (very rough):
Destiny may be one of the best episodes of ATS I've seen. I was slightly spoiled for this episode and it was not at all what I'd expected. Not even close.
For anyone whose been reading my live journal - this was the episode I was going nuts about in October due to a couple of spoilers and cjl reassurred me on. People on the spoiler boards had gone nuts and all out war between Spike/Angel fans ensued, silly fools - they are focusing on the wrong things. (sigh). This episode is the one that the whole Wagner's Parsifal post and Schoepenhauer was about btw.
This episode had tons of misleads for both the audience and the characters. The biggest one is...
THE SHANSHUE PROPHECY - which in the vampire world is almost akin to the Arthurian prophecy of the Holy Grail.
In this episode the Shanshu is brought to the fore again. Interesting. Why now? And more importantly by whom? And how does this connect through the seasons? I think the "who" is what connects it and why we probably shouldn't trust anything we've ever learned about it.
The Shanshue Prophecy first came up in S1 ATS Blind Date. (It was translated in To Shanshu in LA, but Angel stole the scroll for it in Blind Date - this is important.But who ensured Angel would find the scroll with the Shanshue prophecy? This is answered in Blind Date - an episode that features Lindsey, Angel's nemesis for much of S1 and S2.)
In Blind Date - Lindsey approaches Angel to save a bunch of blind telekinetic children (3 in all). He appears to be betraying W&H. He tells Angel where to get the files on the kids in order to locate them before the assassin does. As long as Angel concentrates on those files, they'll be fine.
Does Angel? No, he's mysteriously drawn to a scroll and by stealing it sets off all the alarms - so that Lindsey can't escape the building and is discovered by Holland Manners. Manners lets Lindsey off the hook. Giving a nice little speech about Power. A speech that echoes the FE's speeches to Caleb and Spike in S7 BTVS.
Later in To Shanshue in LA - after Wes translates the scroll - W&H has a Vocah demon (who bears a striking resemblance to Jasmine by the way) steal it back so they can use the scroll to bring back a human Darla. Angel attempts to stop them and slices off Lindsey's hand, causing Lindsey to hate Angel even more. (Lindsey flirted with leaving W&H and joining AI in Blind Date, but changes his mind at the end of the episode after Angel steals the scroll...one can't help but wonder what Lindsey would have done if Angel hadn't stolen the scroll?)
Angel becomes obsessed with the Shanshu prophecy, doing all sorts of things to be the champion in it. Also the scroll/Shanshue Prophecy is why Vocah decides to blow up AI (injuring Wes), and make Cordy's visions more intense, and kills Angel's oracles. This by the way is the turning point in the pain of Cordy's visions and Angel's approach to heroism. It's also the beginning of the Connor/Darla arc. Would any of that happened if Angel had left that scroll alone? Probably. What if he had destroyed it? Angel also becomes obsessed with Darla. Then Connor. He doesn't really save the world or people very much during this arc? Does he? Not unless they are somehow linked to w&H, Darla, or Connor? All the while, W&H is egging him on. Lindsey finally fed up with W&H, Angel, and everything - leaves town with his newly attached hand, the last thing he tells Angel, is:"The best way of handling W&H is to not play their game, to make them play yours..." (very good advice, which Angel doesn't appear to follow.)
Now, five years later, after barely mentioning it for two years, we have the Shanshue come up again. Interesting. Guess whose also been gone for two years? That's right Lindsey. The Shanshu thing was Lindsey's project. And we've barely heard it mentioned since Lindsey left town, have we? Eve is convienently the person who tells the gang that the universe is out of balance because there are two vamps with a soul. She deliberately brings up and focuses on the Shanshue prophecy. No one else does. Angel is in fact a bit annoyed by the reference. Who questions EVE? Gunn. Gunn says, wait a minute - we had two vamps with souls last year and no problem. EVE grasping at straws - grabs the fact that Spike wasn't a champion before. Gunn, notice is the only other member of the gang affected by the red eye and he gets affected after he tells EVE he doesn't trust her. Gunn is credible until he attacks EVE and Fred saves her - so now EVE looks nice and innocent.
Also, convienently, Wes has taken a leave of absence after the attack of the evil cyborgs (hmmm - wonder who sent them? And were they sent to get Wes out of the picture?) So Sirk takes over and gives a very nice "holy grail" tale coupled with the theory that one vamp has to be accepted as the one with the Shanshue for the universe to re-align. (I don't buy for a second that the universe is out of wack - but that someone has done something to make it appear out of wack.) What does this do? This pits Spike and Angel at each other's throats. They go off on a wild goose chase to an opera house in the middle of the desert to fight over what appears to be a holy relic. (Yet as Spike notes, it doesn't look like a cup of perpetual torment, way too shiny. Reminds me of the Indiana Jones quote in IJ and the Holy Grail.)
After much fighting (which I'll get to later, b/c the true meat of the tale is what is going on in both the past and present psychologically between Spike and Angel, not the whole Shanshue thing. The Shanshue is the "mislead".), Spike finds out the cup is a hoax. Annoyed they return to w&H, wondering why they were set up. But still unduly distracted by the whole Shanshue thing.
Wait..."distracted"...I just re-watched the S2 episodes, where Wes and Cordelia and Gunn warn Angel not to let W&H distract him, which they of course manage to do with flying colors. Whose in charge of the distraction? Lilah and Lindsey.
Who is in the final scene in bed with EVE? Lindsey covered with runes. (Actually just learned they aren't runes at all, they are anti-magic symbols - seen in a manga someone read, and if you compare to actual runes and magic symbols - fit the magic symbols. So what they do is jam magic. Interesting.)Or is it Lindsey? (Woo-hoo! On the return of Christian Kane. I really missed him.)
So, if I was an evil law firm who had to deal with a pesky vampire with a soul who was messing with my evil plans - what would I do? I'd come up with a way of distracting him. I'd manipulate him. And what's the best way of manipulating or distracting someone if you are a lawyer? Well two things 1) find their weakness. 2)Words baby. It's all about the words. And Angel was always into the whole prophecy/destiny thing - we got the oracles after all. Remember when Saijhan told the gang he re-wrote the prophecy? That anyone can write a prophecy? So what if W&H found the Shanshue, played with a few words, and have been using it to play with Angel's head?
Plus - note before Angel gets a chance to consult the power's that be's mouthpieces: the oracles - on the whole Shanshue Prophecy - Vocah kills them and drives Cordy crazy with visions, effectively disconnecting both of Angel's avenues.
So we've never really gotten a confirmation from the PTB that the Shanshue Prophecy Wes translated is the real one or valid.
We just have Wes' translation and W&H's word on that.
EVE and her bedmate (Lindsey's look-a-like) clearly
wanted Spike to kill Angel or vice-versa. But that's not what happened and that is the "main" point of the episode - the core of the episode is why Spike and Angel did not kill each other. It's all about their relationship - not which vamp is better, not who is more heroic, or more evil or who deserves the Shanshue, that's the mislead, the joke - the game W&H is playing. W&H wants Angel and Spike at each other's throats.
They want them to fight, not to band together. The best way of doing that is bringing up the Shanshue Prophecy.
In the flashbacks - we don't get a rivalry so much as a male bonding. I get the feeling these two guys were friends maybe even brothers or had a mentor relationship, maybe father/son? Angelus reacts with glee when Dru returns with William. Darla had just left him again to be with the Master (the Master always comes first with Darla - Angelus states - which is a very important thing to remember and goes to the heart of explaining a lot about Angelus), and they'd fought over it. Angelus takes one look at William and reactes with a sort of glee, another guy, another vamp. Someone he can mold into his own image, teach, bond with. I think Spike may be right when he states something else was going on there as well. Angelus sees a reflection of himself or who he once was. To test it he holds out his hand in the sunlight standing face to face with William. William takes up the challenge and mirrors him.
Angelus laughs - you and I are going to have a ball.
And they do. Until the carriage ride home, when Angelus offers him another drink of the bride, he'd killed, William turns him down - talking about Dru and how she's his Destiney (note before that William was all about bonding with Angelus, stroking Angelus - now he's talking about Dru, whom Angelus dismisses as crazy) - William calls her "his" beloved, and he wants to get back to her. This makes Angelus quiet. He frowns and withdraws into the shadows. I think this is when he plots his rendezvous with Dru. When William returns he's horrified at the betrayal. And Angelus tells him - "she's not yours William, nothing is, you can take all you want, but you will "never" own anything. There is no deserving, no owning, nothing. Just this." He also makes fun of the name Willy - not stating William. But Willy. (Will.) Telling William - he needs to get a better name, William doesn't exactly strike fear in the hearts of anyone. (Interesting considering Liam is Angelus' real name - the Irish verison of William.)
Spike in the present - accuses Angel of not wanting to look at him now, of hating him now, because it reminds Angel that he created the monster Spike became. Dru may have sired him. But Angelus created him. Angel retorts all he did was open the door and show him how disgustingly horrid he truly was. Spike retorts, you don't know who I am, you never did. You think you created someone in your own image you didn't. Spike
stakes Angel through the shoulder, but doesn't kill him. He even mentions the fact that he has no interest in killing him.
He does it when both are in vamp face. He withdrawls.
Both turn back to human face. Angel removes the stake and warns Spike not to drink. (Angel could still stop Spike physically if he wanted to. Spike after all had stopped Angel when he grabbed for it.) What he says is not what one would expect - it's in fact very similar to the advice Angelus once gave William - do you really want the burden of it? Until it takes everything away, and all you are is dust? Is it worth it just to take something away from me? Spike drinks but not just to take something away from Angel but to take on the burden as well. (He states as much - "A little bit of both actually.") Yet the cup is only filled with mountain dew. Why? Well the test wasn't who gets to drink from the cup, but whether they would literally kill one another for it. They don't. Also the shanshu prophecy is "not" important in of itself, it never was. The cup is "not" important. They are symbols and also distractions. Spike and Angel drank from the cup of perpetual torment the moment they became ensouled. Because that's what having a conscience and being human can be like. One vampire chose it. One had it forced upon him. But it doesn't change the torment. When Angel cautions Spike - it is an echo of the advice Angel may have given Spike, had he asked, way back in Villians through Grave about getting a soul. As well as an echo of what he might have told Spike when Spike fell for Buffy, or decided to wear the amulet. It is the advice an older/more experienced brother gives a younger less experienced brother, a father to a son. A teacher to a student.
The love buried between these two characters echoed in that opera house. Their psychological connection far deeper and more complex than either may be willing to admit.
Remember when Angelus teaches William that harsh lesson, Darla had just left him again...he is basically telling William - look I thought Darla was my destiney and the road to wonder/riches/etc, I've learned she's not. I'm going to save you the same pain of that discovery if I can. Here again, Angel is telling Spike - drinking from that cup does not lead to wonder, it leads to ruine, I don't want that for you unless you know what it entails, choose it wisely. Angel does not tell Spike not to drink from the cup just because he wants it, because as he tells Gunn later, he's not so sure that's still the case...no he tells Spike, because he knows what wanting it, what pursuing it, what believing in it and other prophecies has cost him over the years.
The metaphors, the use of Lindsey (a character whose always been connected with the Shanshue prophecy) all lead me to believe that the whole who deserves to Shanshue theme may be mislead. The Cup = cup of friendship, cup of perpetual torment...yet it reminds me of the grail and the grail was a cup that Christ shared with his friends at the last supper. The Opera house - Wagner's Parsifal - an opera about the search for the grail, by a fool who when he discoveres the cup brings it to his wounded King and they both sup from it. The drag race in fast cars. The flashbacks.
Even the mirror dance of a battle - where neither vamp really goes for the kill.
In the scene with Lindsey and Eve, Eve says that even though Spike didn't stake Angel, they did fight, since both came back bloody. So does Lindsey and EVE expect Spike or Angel to kill each other? If so, they will be sorely disappointed. They weren't willing to kill each other when one or the other was evil, I sincerely doubt they'll do it now. There's far too much love between them, mixed in with the rivalry and hate, for that to happen. They might beat each other up, knock each other out, but they will not kill each other. Also in a way, W&H or Lindsey/Eve did Spike and Angel a favor - they gave them a chance to address their issues, to fight it out. Far better than letting things continue to fester.
Those are just my initial thoughts. I'll have to re-watch the episode and lurk on a few discussions, before I figure out the metaphors. Once I do, I may change my mind.
Little leery of reading or posting on the fanboards for this episode, you should have seen the spoiler boards when this stuff first broke in Oct. Nasty. Nasty. Hence the reason I'm posting this here and not on the fanboards for the moment.
Here are my initial thoughts (very rough):
Destiny may be one of the best episodes of ATS I've seen. I was slightly spoiled for this episode and it was not at all what I'd expected. Not even close.
For anyone whose been reading my live journal - this was the episode I was going nuts about in October due to a couple of spoilers and cjl reassurred me on. People on the spoiler boards had gone nuts and all out war between Spike/Angel fans ensued, silly fools - they are focusing on the wrong things. (sigh). This episode is the one that the whole Wagner's Parsifal post and Schoepenhauer was about btw.
This episode had tons of misleads for both the audience and the characters. The biggest one is...
THE SHANSHUE PROPHECY - which in the vampire world is almost akin to the Arthurian prophecy of the Holy Grail.
In this episode the Shanshu is brought to the fore again. Interesting. Why now? And more importantly by whom? And how does this connect through the seasons? I think the "who" is what connects it and why we probably shouldn't trust anything we've ever learned about it.
The Shanshue Prophecy first came up in S1 ATS Blind Date. (It was translated in To Shanshu in LA, but Angel stole the scroll for it in Blind Date - this is important.But who ensured Angel would find the scroll with the Shanshue prophecy? This is answered in Blind Date - an episode that features Lindsey, Angel's nemesis for much of S1 and S2.)
In Blind Date - Lindsey approaches Angel to save a bunch of blind telekinetic children (3 in all). He appears to be betraying W&H. He tells Angel where to get the files on the kids in order to locate them before the assassin does. As long as Angel concentrates on those files, they'll be fine.
Does Angel? No, he's mysteriously drawn to a scroll and by stealing it sets off all the alarms - so that Lindsey can't escape the building and is discovered by Holland Manners. Manners lets Lindsey off the hook. Giving a nice little speech about Power. A speech that echoes the FE's speeches to Caleb and Spike in S7 BTVS.
Later in To Shanshue in LA - after Wes translates the scroll - W&H has a Vocah demon (who bears a striking resemblance to Jasmine by the way) steal it back so they can use the scroll to bring back a human Darla. Angel attempts to stop them and slices off Lindsey's hand, causing Lindsey to hate Angel even more. (Lindsey flirted with leaving W&H and joining AI in Blind Date, but changes his mind at the end of the episode after Angel steals the scroll...one can't help but wonder what Lindsey would have done if Angel hadn't stolen the scroll?)
Angel becomes obsessed with the Shanshu prophecy, doing all sorts of things to be the champion in it. Also the scroll/Shanshue Prophecy is why Vocah decides to blow up AI (injuring Wes), and make Cordy's visions more intense, and kills Angel's oracles. This by the way is the turning point in the pain of Cordy's visions and Angel's approach to heroism. It's also the beginning of the Connor/Darla arc. Would any of that happened if Angel had left that scroll alone? Probably. What if he had destroyed it? Angel also becomes obsessed with Darla. Then Connor. He doesn't really save the world or people very much during this arc? Does he? Not unless they are somehow linked to w&H, Darla, or Connor? All the while, W&H is egging him on. Lindsey finally fed up with W&H, Angel, and everything - leaves town with his newly attached hand, the last thing he tells Angel, is:"The best way of handling W&H is to not play their game, to make them play yours..." (very good advice, which Angel doesn't appear to follow.)
Now, five years later, after barely mentioning it for two years, we have the Shanshue come up again. Interesting. Guess whose also been gone for two years? That's right Lindsey. The Shanshu thing was Lindsey's project. And we've barely heard it mentioned since Lindsey left town, have we? Eve is convienently the person who tells the gang that the universe is out of balance because there are two vamps with a soul. She deliberately brings up and focuses on the Shanshue prophecy. No one else does. Angel is in fact a bit annoyed by the reference. Who questions EVE? Gunn. Gunn says, wait a minute - we had two vamps with souls last year and no problem. EVE grasping at straws - grabs the fact that Spike wasn't a champion before. Gunn, notice is the only other member of the gang affected by the red eye and he gets affected after he tells EVE he doesn't trust her. Gunn is credible until he attacks EVE and Fred saves her - so now EVE looks nice and innocent.
Also, convienently, Wes has taken a leave of absence after the attack of the evil cyborgs (hmmm - wonder who sent them? And were they sent to get Wes out of the picture?) So Sirk takes over and gives a very nice "holy grail" tale coupled with the theory that one vamp has to be accepted as the one with the Shanshue for the universe to re-align. (I don't buy for a second that the universe is out of wack - but that someone has done something to make it appear out of wack.) What does this do? This pits Spike and Angel at each other's throats. They go off on a wild goose chase to an opera house in the middle of the desert to fight over what appears to be a holy relic. (Yet as Spike notes, it doesn't look like a cup of perpetual torment, way too shiny. Reminds me of the Indiana Jones quote in IJ and the Holy Grail.)
After much fighting (which I'll get to later, b/c the true meat of the tale is what is going on in both the past and present psychologically between Spike and Angel, not the whole Shanshue thing. The Shanshue is the "mislead".), Spike finds out the cup is a hoax. Annoyed they return to w&H, wondering why they were set up. But still unduly distracted by the whole Shanshue thing.
Wait..."distracted"...I just re-watched the S2 episodes, where Wes and Cordelia and Gunn warn Angel not to let W&H distract him, which they of course manage to do with flying colors. Whose in charge of the distraction? Lilah and Lindsey.
Who is in the final scene in bed with EVE? Lindsey covered with runes. (Actually just learned they aren't runes at all, they are anti-magic symbols - seen in a manga someone read, and if you compare to actual runes and magic symbols - fit the magic symbols. So what they do is jam magic. Interesting.)Or is it Lindsey? (Woo-hoo! On the return of Christian Kane. I really missed him.)
So, if I was an evil law firm who had to deal with a pesky vampire with a soul who was messing with my evil plans - what would I do? I'd come up with a way of distracting him. I'd manipulate him. And what's the best way of manipulating or distracting someone if you are a lawyer? Well two things 1) find their weakness. 2)Words baby. It's all about the words. And Angel was always into the whole prophecy/destiny thing - we got the oracles after all. Remember when Saijhan told the gang he re-wrote the prophecy? That anyone can write a prophecy? So what if W&H found the Shanshue, played with a few words, and have been using it to play with Angel's head?
Plus - note before Angel gets a chance to consult the power's that be's mouthpieces: the oracles - on the whole Shanshue Prophecy - Vocah kills them and drives Cordy crazy with visions, effectively disconnecting both of Angel's avenues.
So we've never really gotten a confirmation from the PTB that the Shanshue Prophecy Wes translated is the real one or valid.
We just have Wes' translation and W&H's word on that.
EVE and her bedmate (Lindsey's look-a-like) clearly
wanted Spike to kill Angel or vice-versa. But that's not what happened and that is the "main" point of the episode - the core of the episode is why Spike and Angel did not kill each other. It's all about their relationship - not which vamp is better, not who is more heroic, or more evil or who deserves the Shanshue, that's the mislead, the joke - the game W&H is playing. W&H wants Angel and Spike at each other's throats.
They want them to fight, not to band together. The best way of doing that is bringing up the Shanshue Prophecy.
In the flashbacks - we don't get a rivalry so much as a male bonding. I get the feeling these two guys were friends maybe even brothers or had a mentor relationship, maybe father/son? Angelus reacts with glee when Dru returns with William. Darla had just left him again to be with the Master (the Master always comes first with Darla - Angelus states - which is a very important thing to remember and goes to the heart of explaining a lot about Angelus), and they'd fought over it. Angelus takes one look at William and reactes with a sort of glee, another guy, another vamp. Someone he can mold into his own image, teach, bond with. I think Spike may be right when he states something else was going on there as well. Angelus sees a reflection of himself or who he once was. To test it he holds out his hand in the sunlight standing face to face with William. William takes up the challenge and mirrors him.
Angelus laughs - you and I are going to have a ball.
And they do. Until the carriage ride home, when Angelus offers him another drink of the bride, he'd killed, William turns him down - talking about Dru and how she's his Destiney (note before that William was all about bonding with Angelus, stroking Angelus - now he's talking about Dru, whom Angelus dismisses as crazy) - William calls her "his" beloved, and he wants to get back to her. This makes Angelus quiet. He frowns and withdraws into the shadows. I think this is when he plots his rendezvous with Dru. When William returns he's horrified at the betrayal. And Angelus tells him - "she's not yours William, nothing is, you can take all you want, but you will "never" own anything. There is no deserving, no owning, nothing. Just this." He also makes fun of the name Willy - not stating William. But Willy. (Will.) Telling William - he needs to get a better name, William doesn't exactly strike fear in the hearts of anyone. (Interesting considering Liam is Angelus' real name - the Irish verison of William.)
Spike in the present - accuses Angel of not wanting to look at him now, of hating him now, because it reminds Angel that he created the monster Spike became. Dru may have sired him. But Angelus created him. Angel retorts all he did was open the door and show him how disgustingly horrid he truly was. Spike retorts, you don't know who I am, you never did. You think you created someone in your own image you didn't. Spike
stakes Angel through the shoulder, but doesn't kill him. He even mentions the fact that he has no interest in killing him.
He does it when both are in vamp face. He withdrawls.
Both turn back to human face. Angel removes the stake and warns Spike not to drink. (Angel could still stop Spike physically if he wanted to. Spike after all had stopped Angel when he grabbed for it.) What he says is not what one would expect - it's in fact very similar to the advice Angelus once gave William - do you really want the burden of it? Until it takes everything away, and all you are is dust? Is it worth it just to take something away from me? Spike drinks but not just to take something away from Angel but to take on the burden as well. (He states as much - "A little bit of both actually.") Yet the cup is only filled with mountain dew. Why? Well the test wasn't who gets to drink from the cup, but whether they would literally kill one another for it. They don't. Also the shanshu prophecy is "not" important in of itself, it never was. The cup is "not" important. They are symbols and also distractions. Spike and Angel drank from the cup of perpetual torment the moment they became ensouled. Because that's what having a conscience and being human can be like. One vampire chose it. One had it forced upon him. But it doesn't change the torment. When Angel cautions Spike - it is an echo of the advice Angel may have given Spike, had he asked, way back in Villians through Grave about getting a soul. As well as an echo of what he might have told Spike when Spike fell for Buffy, or decided to wear the amulet. It is the advice an older/more experienced brother gives a younger less experienced brother, a father to a son. A teacher to a student.
The love buried between these two characters echoed in that opera house. Their psychological connection far deeper and more complex than either may be willing to admit.
Remember when Angelus teaches William that harsh lesson, Darla had just left him again...he is basically telling William - look I thought Darla was my destiney and the road to wonder/riches/etc, I've learned she's not. I'm going to save you the same pain of that discovery if I can. Here again, Angel is telling Spike - drinking from that cup does not lead to wonder, it leads to ruine, I don't want that for you unless you know what it entails, choose it wisely. Angel does not tell Spike not to drink from the cup just because he wants it, because as he tells Gunn later, he's not so sure that's still the case...no he tells Spike, because he knows what wanting it, what pursuing it, what believing in it and other prophecies has cost him over the years.
The metaphors, the use of Lindsey (a character whose always been connected with the Shanshue prophecy) all lead me to believe that the whole who deserves to Shanshue theme may be mislead. The Cup = cup of friendship, cup of perpetual torment...yet it reminds me of the grail and the grail was a cup that Christ shared with his friends at the last supper. The Opera house - Wagner's Parsifal - an opera about the search for the grail, by a fool who when he discoveres the cup brings it to his wounded King and they both sup from it. The drag race in fast cars. The flashbacks.
Even the mirror dance of a battle - where neither vamp really goes for the kill.
In the scene with Lindsey and Eve, Eve says that even though Spike didn't stake Angel, they did fight, since both came back bloody. So does Lindsey and EVE expect Spike or Angel to kill each other? If so, they will be sorely disappointed. They weren't willing to kill each other when one or the other was evil, I sincerely doubt they'll do it now. There's far too much love between them, mixed in with the rivalry and hate, for that to happen. They might beat each other up, knock each other out, but they will not kill each other. Also in a way, W&H or Lindsey/Eve did Spike and Angel a favor - they gave them a chance to address their issues, to fight it out. Far better than letting things continue to fester.
Those are just my initial thoughts. I'll have to re-watch the episode and lurk on a few discussions, before I figure out the metaphors. Once I do, I may change my mind.
Little leery of reading or posting on the fanboards for this episode, you should have seen the spoiler boards when this stuff first broke in Oct. Nasty. Nasty. Hence the reason I'm posting this here and not on the fanboards for the moment.
Just remember
Rufus
Re: Just remember
Because I just kept fiddling with it.
Ah, fiddling with me are ya?.....;)
Rufus
no subject
Is Eve lying about SP?
sk
Yeah, maybe cause he really really is....
Rufus
There was a very good reason the Shanshu prophecy was dropped
He was obsessed with the prophecy in the beginning of season 2, then realized the idea of "earning humanity" by doing enough good deeds was ludicrious--he could never make up for all the bad deeds he'd done, and he knew it.
He had to go through a dark bout in the middle of season 2 to realize this, but when he did, in Epiphany he realized he wanted to do good for its own sake, to help people. And he didn't lose sight of that when Connor came on the scene, he just focused a lot of his attention on Connor for reasons any parent would.
So I think his pessimism about the Shanshu prophecy at the beginning of season 5 was from two sources (a) the prophecy had become a non-factor in his life and (b) he was pessimistic about prophecy in general after losing Connor more than once.
I was kind of nervous about the return of the shanshu prophecy in season 5, because I thought that thing was about "fighting the good fight for all the wrong reasons" in the first place and that ME had gotten Angel long past that kind of motivation.
So to see first Spike and then Angel get interested in it again was kind of disappointing. But after last night, I am reassured. That prophecy brought out the worst in both vamps, and I don't even know why Angel bothered fighting for it, except to keep it out of Spike's hands. His speech to Spike about the burden of being "the vampire with a soul" before Spike drank sums up season 5 Angel's feelings about being the object of prophecy and destiny: it's a big job, be sure that you want it, 'cause it's not about becoming human TODAY, it's about doing what all the prophecies say first before becoming human.
And Angel has a long history of struggling to come to terms with the demans of being the Hero with a capital H, and not just an everyday hero with a little h. He's pessimistic about it now.
I think the shanshu was actually brought back by ME this season for the same reason it was dropped in mid-season 2. It's fighting for the wrong reasons, and Lindsey dangled it like a carrot in front of two very emotionally vulnerable vamps. So in a way, it shows where Angel and Spike are currently (which isn't flattering), and it is a nice frame around the re-introduction of a character who was there through the whole shanshu arc and left when the arc was over.
Welcome back Lindsey!
Re: There was a very good reason the Shanshu prophecy was dropped
While it's nice to feel the need to do good with no reward.
It's very hard thing to stick to, because that lovely speech in Epiphany which is echoed almost word for word in Tale by Angel, to someone who left the building, doesn't bring your friends back, doesn't keep you warm at night, and it doesn't pay the bills. While it's a lovely thought and helping others (the pay it forward philosophy) is a good thing - it's a bit hard to stick with it when your son becomes a killer, your girlfriend betrays you, your best friend betrays you, etc. Any more than it's an easy sentiment to buy - if you just burned up saving the world,
came back an incorporeal ghost, and the one person you loved most probably doesn't return your feelings. As Angelus darkly notes - nothing is yours - even if you take it. The Shanshue as Wes points out to Angel in Tale, is partly about hope. Hope that the good we do isn't pointless, that it means something. That our existence means something. And we all desire hope. It's why people believe in God, believe in an afterlife even. Hope.
So in a way, it shows where Angel and Spike are currently (which isn't flattering),
Thank god. Anything else would be pretty dull, wouldn't it?
I mean do we really want to watch a show about a moral, upstanding, do-gooder who goes and kills a monster once a week? What I love about ME is the fact that the characters are wonderfully immature, convoluted, insecure, morally ambiguous, and quite likely to do something horrendous at any second. What I've never understood are the fans who for some bizarre reason want to worship the character and feel horribly betrayed when the character isn't the moral hero they've pictured in their heads. What ME excels at is emotional arcs for their characters and making their characters three-dimensional and pricky.
Agreed on Lindsey (assuming it is Lindsey) - he's amongst my all time favorite characters. If I can't have Lilah back, Lindsey will more than make up for it.
It had darned well better be Lindsey!
Bad idea.
It is Lindsey! It is! It is!
childish pout
Squee!
And what was Security's code for sealing off W&H? Closing Pandora's box!
Re: There was a very good reason the Shanshu prophecy was dropped
I like my Angel broody, morally ambiguous and pained (although I admit freely and happily that I like him smiling and (wellnotperfectly) happy, too. They're giving him new things to angst about (the loss of Connor, etc), give him new things to look forward to and fight for as well.
"A Game of Pool" (yes, this is relevant to AtS 5.8--trust me)
(Anonymous) 2003-11-20 12:54 pm (UTC)(link)In one shot, we had Angel remembering some of the hard-earned lessons of the past five seasons, Angel giving Spike an almost-paternal word of warning, and Spike re-considering his own motivations--a rare thing for our bleached-blonde vamp. (Of course, Spike drank from the cup anyway; I would have been disappointed if he didn't.)
The scene, in a strange way, also reminded me of the great Twilight Zone episode, "A Game of Pool," in which pool hustler/social misfit Jack Klugman squared off against the ghost of a legendary champion (Jonathan Winters). All through the episode, Winters' Fats Brown taunted Klugman's Jesse Cardiff about all the time Jesse's wasted in the pool hall, sinking bank shots rather than living a life and experiencing the world around him. Jesse blew him off, contending that "fat boy" was just scared about losing the title of the Greatest, and that the championship was worth any sacrifice.
Just as Jesse lined up the winning shot, Fats interjected that he might win more than he bargained for. Klugman blew him off, sank the shot, and won the title of "champion." Problem is, once he died, Jesse's spirit was then condemned to compete against the wannabes who think they're hot stuff, while Fats could kick back and relax for the rest of eternity.
What are we willing to sacrifice to become a champion? Is Angel's capacity for self-sacrifice the greatest expression of his humanity, or the ideal detaching him from humanity? Or both? Should Angel have simply taken the chance to live as a human with Buffy while he had the chance (IWRY), rather than extend his (and everyone else's) misery?
The season is officially rolling.
Other bits of "Destiny" goodness:
-- The battle scenes. Spike comes over to Angel, and yesss!--he gets the AtS 20-foot vertical leap! Also loved when Spike grabbed the cross from "Beneath You" and bludgeoned Angel insensate with it.
-- Lindsey! With "tats," yet! Back and badder than ever! (Or is he good guy, now? Too early to tell, and if I think about it too much, my head will probably explode.)
-- The looks between Spike and Harm before they took off for their "nooner." I know you're not a Spike/Harm fan, but one of my last remaining 'ships was reconfirmed.
-- The hug Spike gave Gunn, and the offer to go out for a round of drinks after work. I think Spike genuinely likes Chuckie, and vice versa. That's great--I hope ME builds on their friendship.
-- As somebody who has to change the toner for his fellow employees, I understand the anger, if not the violence.
-- Rutherford Sirk was a smug, patronizing bastard. But he was funny. (I miss Wesley too, Angel, but Alexis and Alyson need their honeymoon time.)
-- Dead Kennedys on network TV! California Uber Alles, baby!
-- Dru. Not enough of her, but always great to see Juliet.
The not-so-good:
-- Eve. I'm trying, but Sarah Thompson just makes me irritable. The character is superbly written (despite all the exposition), and should be fascinating--but the actress just isn't cutting it. At the end, I got more of a thrill from Christian Kane's single line than from her entire speech.
-- DB's irish accent. It hasn't improved either.
-- The lack of Lorne. ME loves Andy Hallett so much, they're willing to pay him a regular's salary for doing almost nothing.
-- Fred called Gunn "Charles"! She remembers! No, wait, she called him "Gunn" again. Make up your mind, will you, Winifred?
My fears about the deus ex machina nature of Spike's recorporealization and the Senior Partners' re-alignment of the universe were completely unfounded, and instead turned into enough plot material to keep conspiracy buffs buzzing for months. The flashback sections didn't have the emotional power I thought they would, but they were a huge addition to Jossverse mythology anyway. (I get the feeling the eppy ran long, and they had to cut a few scenes.)
Could have been the "Best. Episode. Ever."--but still a great effort. 9 out of 10.
--cjl
Re: "A Game of Pool" (yes, this is relevant to AtS 5.8--trust me)
What are we willing to sacrifice to become a champion? Is Angel's capacity for self-sacrifice the greatest expression of his humanity, or the ideal detaching him from humanity? Or both? Should Angel have simply taken the chance to live as a human with Buffy while he had the chance (IWRY), rather than extend his (and everyone else's) misery?
Exactly. I'm wondering the same thing, as is Angel. It also reminds me of Forever Knight - where Nick Knight, believes if he saves so many lives, he'll be redeemed. When the person who does become redeemed and lives life as human is his old paramour Janette - Janette succeeds by living as a human instead of disconnected from them as a champion. But her reward? Is the pain of being human - losing a loved one, mortality.
The Spike/Harm bit didn't bug me as much as I thought. Actually rather funny. Seemed a little odd, at first, b/c why would he go there again? OTOH - if I was a guy, had been incorporeal for four months, hadn't been able to touch, feel, or sense anything, and whammo I became corporeal b/c this cute blond chick opened a box? I'd shag her. Actually if I was Harmony and Spike came up to me and offered? I'd go for it too. So it works from both ends. Don't see the ship making it past two or three episodes though - so enjoy while it lasts.
Also loved the Spike/Gunn moments. These two seem to be building a friendship. They seem to appreciate each other on some level. They are also the only two characters who have had a major confrontation with Eve and whom EVE has worried about.
No clue who Dead Kennedys are. Yes, I'm muscially challenged, what of it? ;-)
Also agree on the not-so-good, which may be what is keeping this baby from a solid ten in my book.
Sarah Thompson as EVE? Just isn't cutting it for me. She seems off somehow. Too...stiff?
Didn't notice DB's accent being off - but I never notice those things.
Lorne seemed almost like an add-in. I'm not sure ME knows what to do with him. He hasn't been well utilized at all this season or much of the last one.
Did Fred and Gunn have a relationship in this mirrorworld Angel's memory-wipe appears to have created? IF so, they don't appear to remember it. While Wes does remember chopping up an ex-girlfriend who was stabbed in the neck.
Oh - I gave in and decided to post it on the boards, ASSB, Angel after Spike, and ATPO, that version is slightly different than the one above. Also reposted the Parsifal post from Oct.
sk