The Good Place

[shadowkat]

In an attempt to distract myself from real life events that I can't do anything about (no not politics -- which I've been avoiding for different reasons), I watched the Good Place and tooled across social media.

The Good Place -- the episode explores the "free will vs. determinism" debate...I rather enjoyed the episode. Even if it wasn't all that funny or rather I didn't find it funny, I'm sure other people did. We've already discussed how my sense of humor is well...a bit odd.



After talking Michael into showing all the clips of Chidi and her falling in love...Eleanor decides that Michael manipulated her into falling in love with Chidi. This perplexes Michael, because truthfully he didn't want them to fall in love -- he was trying to torture them, it was sort of the opposite of his intent.

So they have this extended argument over Free Will vs. Determinism, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Because I've lost count of the number of times I've had this argument with people claiming there's no such thing as free will and how environmental and genetic factors, or if they aren't atheist, a higher being, determines all their actions. It's an annoying argument that often goes in a circle, because you are basically arguing with someone's deep-seated beliefs and there's no logic to be had. I really wish I'd done what Michael did to Eleanor and just dumped a glass of ice tea on their head. Next time, I'm definitely taking that approach.

The determinists basically don't like taking responsibility for anything. The problem with "free will" is it means when you screw up royally, you have to live with the consequences of what "you" did. It's a whole lot easier to turn the blame hose on to someone else. Much harder to take responsibility for it, yourself.

And we live in an age of "deterministic" theory, where people are constantly blaming outside factors for their own actions. We're also lead by leaders who are blaming outside people for their actions and refuse to take responsibility for their own choices.

Eleanor also couldn't handle the idea of love...that she had fallen in love and then lost it. But it had happened.

Michael and Eleanor meanwhile are focusing their efforts on the wrong thing -- being bold, finding the best person ever...to either help or emulate, to ensure a get out of jail free card. But no such thing exists.

And the devil has now figured out how to get to earth and stop them. Michael upset the balance, and that has opened a door of sorts for the Devil and his kin to enter our world. Although I have to say that I prefer his demonic associate for this trip better than the last one.

Comments

[cjlasky7]

You know, I almost wish Eleanor could have had this argument with Chidi, because he would have been both upset by her denial of free will, and absolutely exultant that she learned her philosophy lessons so well. That would have been funny; the debate with Michael seemed a bit dry to me (until he dumped the iced tea).

My favorite bit was Bad Place Pet Day: Eleanor's iguana and (holy shirtballs!) Tahani's mirror centaur. Now that's torture!

I also liked Demon Michael's response to Chidi and Eleanor's "love is strong" declaration: "Even metaphorically, that's lame."

[yourlibrarian]

One of the things I really enjoyed about this episode was the flashback ear buds. By introducing these it means we could, regardless of future developments, always return to see some of the many reboots in Michael's land. And I was delighted by the bits we got there.

I agree that the free will-determinism argument got somewhat tedious. But I loved how Michael ended their time at the restaurant, insisting that he cared about her and the others, which means that regardless of what he thought of her "love is strong" argument before that he came to believe it.

The introduction of the other demons is probably going to be needed to keep this latest plot incarnation moving. But I do wonder if we're finally going to see Chidi's family which is the only one still unexplored.

[shadowkat]

Agree more or less on all of the above.

I didn't mind the free will-determinism debate -- I think it was supposed to be annoying? And it was very realistic -- I've had arguments exactly like that one with various people. Just no ice tea handy to dump on their heads -- which turned out to be weirdly effective.

One of the things I really enjoyed about this episode was the flashback ear buds. By introducing these it means we could, regardless of future developments, always return to see some of the many reboots in Michael's land. And I was delighted by the bits we got there.

It was actually one of the more comical moments. My favorite was Michael stating to her..."no, you're in hell. I'm just trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong here? I've got everything mapped out and you keep screwing up my plans!"

Or...the pets everyone picked. LOL!

And a good way of filtering bits from their time in the afterlife throughout this season without actually revisiting it.

The introduction of the other demons is probably going to be needed to keep this latest plot incarnation moving. But I do wonder if we're finally going to see Chidi's family which is the only one still unexplored.

I've mixed feelings about the other demons popping up. I know they need conflict, but it's too easy to fall into cliche...I think.

I hope we'll see Chidi's family -- I think that may be where we're headed at some point. Although you could say we already did Chidi, since we started with him and Simone in Australia. Maybe his family's long gone?

[shadowkat]

True...it got a little lost with Michael, and may have been more emotionally satisfying with Chidi. But I think it had to be with Michael, because why would she have blamed Chidi for her feelings or even had the debate with Chidi? Also I think Chidi may have agreed with her -- he was pretty fatalistic in Australia.

It's rather realistic and somewhat interesting with Michael. I've had that exact same debate with people (well outside of being called a demon bit). Masq and I got into it a lot on the ATPO board, she was a fatalist or took that point of view (hence the Angel fascination). I'm really not.

But here you have the puppet accusing the puppeteer of manipulating their every action. Sort of like having the free will/determinism debate with say the Devil, an Angel or God. But the puppeteer says, eh, no, it wasn't like that. If it worked like that..we wouldn't be here now. I'd still be torturing you in hell, you dingbat. LOL!

Tahani's mirror centaur was...perfect. Also Chidi ending up with an owl who attacked him because he couldn't choose between the puppies.

I did love how they deconstructed the whole..."romantic love can overcome anything, even if you wipe our brains clean, we'll remember..." Michael snaps his fingers. They forget.
Eleanor - "see that proves I can't love anyone." Michael: "Wait..what? How do you get that?"

LOL!