shadowkat | The Interview Tango and other unrelated things...

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The Interview Tango and other unrelated things...

First off - FL stuff. HAPPY BIRTHDAY WISHES TO THE EVER LOVELY rahael!! (I pray it was a good one!) Also congratulations to

fresne for the new job! (Way to go!), and congrats to

masqthephlsphr for her new nephew!

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Job Interviewing feels a bit like doing the tango except with an unpredictable partner on a tight-rope, or through land-mines.

Well, I survived the interview dance I went through last week and this week. Exhausted. Demoralized. Anxious. Fearful. All emotions that come to mind. Along with quite a bit of frustration. Let's see five interviews at four different places for three different jobs. Want to see how broad the gap is between some of these jobs? One was for an administrative assistant handling workload for five managers, and one was overseeing/managing administrative assistants and paralegals. Sort of like doing the hokey-pokey one day and the tango the next. Much prefer the tango, but I'd take whatever I can get at this point. Afraid to talk about it in too much depth - since it could jinx me. Also none of these interviews will lead to me being hired - if I pass this stage, I get to go on and do more interviews. Two of which are in another state and require a three hour train ride, six hour round trip.

If you want to lose weight? Try unemployment. Nothing like the stress of unemployment and no stable financial support to make one drop pounds or for that matter look at food and other comforts such as alcohol as money going down a drain. Only one problem with this - if I lose 10 more pounds I won't be able to fit into those two suits I bought two weeks ago and that would be a *very* bad thing. Not that I'm not eating, I am, I just am eating less. Also practically no alcohol - costs money and interfers with "tremor" meds. (I make a few exceptions - a drink socially with friends but very few.) Amazing how many calories are in alcohol.

At any rate, fear not...I'm hanging in there. Just tired.
Emotionally, physically and mentally. One of those interviews was 3 and 1/2 hours, or 11 am to 2:30 pm (no break for lunch - hence the losing weight bit).

Partly to amuse myself and partly out of curiousity, I found the fan fic hate site, everyone's been going on about. LOL! This site reminded me of a scene in an old episode of the West Wing that I watched on Monday night at 7pm on Bravo. (I'd been watching Deep Space 9 reruns at that time period, but Spike TV stopped showing them, so I'm checking out West Wing episodes - most of which I missed due to watching Angel instead.) This episode had the Deputy Chief of Staff discover a website devoted solely to him, complete with posting board. Donna, his assistant, warns him not to post on the board or look at the site. She notes that these people are hysterical and not in a good way. When he asks why? She says :"no one knows, we think they just went off their meds". He doesn't believe her and engages and well if you want to know what happened? Just visit fan fic hate or any fanboard during a flame war. When Josh starts getting worked up over what these people are saying about him and his work - Donna turns to him and states: "Josh, you are going around the bend...". I could not stop laughing for five minutes (and part of it was at myself). Seriously, the internet is a funky place. Sort of like seeing all humanity's "intellectual"/"mental" strengths, weakenesses, and fatal flaws displayed in living color.

Had a lovely lunch last Friday with

herselfnyc. She is as lovely in person as on her livejournal. And kindly bought me lunch, a favor I hope to repay someday. While we may not share all the same tastes in literature, not a huge fan of Russian lit, we did share our feelings on 911 which affected us both in a major way and brought us both to Buffyfandom. 911 changed who I am and my life. It is a day I cannot forget or look back on with anything less than abject horror. Nor is it a day I can write about without pain. Suffice it to say, part of me died on that day and it's a part I still miss.

Moving a little bit more away from the BTVS/ATS fandom. No more essays and I don't foresee myself writing any more fic or finishing that evil fanfic I started. I'm focusing my attention more and more on other things right now. New horizons. The fandom helped me deal with a difficult time in my life and I treasure the people I met through it, but it's time for me at least to begin to move away from it and move on to other interests.

My current obsession/interest is Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles . Amazing series of novels. Not *genre*. These are historical novels that take place in 1500s Scotland when Mary Queen of Scots was 8 years old. During the time of Edward, Bloody Queen Mary, and Sulieman the Manificent. The hero is possibly the most fascinating, complex hero I've read or seen in a while. The writer does what many writers fail to do - she keeps him mysterious at times, she shows you who he is through others points of view. He remains on the periphery - where you always want more. I think that was the problem I had with Angel The Series and actually most TV series with leads, including Harry Potter, - I got too much Angel by the time I'd entered the third season of the series -the lead character no longer fascinated me, no longer challenged my intellect. I knew everything there was to know and was sort of bored with him. Nothing he did surprised me. While the supporting characters kept more on the periphery - continued to fascinate, thrill and surprise me. (Hence the reason I've never read much fanfic focusing on Angel or for that matter felt the need to write essays analyzing him (the show yes, Angel? Not so much) - there wasn't anything to reveal about the character in my point of view that I hadn't already seen on-screen.) This is why I love Dunnett - she handles this juggling act, she keeps your attention, no one is predictable, and all her characters feel fully developed.

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I've just picked up a stack of Dunnett novels, myself, on the strength of a presentation at the SLAYAGE conference from Elizabeth Rambo (a professor of English at Campbell University who presented a fascinating paper on BtVS season 6 and T.S. Eliot at the Norwich conference in 2002 -- the paper title that Joss Whedon commented on in the TV GUIDE article on that conference) about a Dorothy Dunnett mailing list she participates in which spawned a BtVS/AtS discussion list called "SunnydaleU", because so many of the Dunnett readers and professors were turning out to be Buffy fans as well. You might find that an interesting list to check out.

Heh, S'kat and I are both on Sunnydale U already, a weird confluence of tastes that somehow works. Beth Rambo is one of the founders of the Sunnydale U list. It's a members-only list: you must be a Dunnett reader AND a BtVS/AtS fan to be admitted.

I'm a huge fan of Dunnett, but I've only read the Lymond Chronicles. As soon as I get a breather, I'm hoping to start on either her MacBeth book or the House of Niccolo (her other big series). Although you probably don't want to get spoiled, there are a couple of great lists for Dunnett -- Marzipan, another Yahoo group is where I believe a lot of the Sunnydale U'ers came from. Random House also has a list for Dunnett readers. There's another one, but it's a closed list and I'm not sure it's still going on.

Mmm, Dunnett. I was obsessed with reading the LC for a 3 month period during which I lost many nights of sleep because I couldn't put the damn book down! Can't wait to re-read the whole thing again one of these days. And I've finally gotten S'kat sucked into the LC, too (evil chuckle).

punkinpuss

You'll enjoy Lymond, he is an interesting classical hero - sort of a mixture of Angel meets T.E. Lawrence meets Spike as played by Peter O'Toole or James Marsters. Also a bit of what you enjoy in Riddick.
Dunnett keeps the ambiguity in tact, which works.

There's only a few characters in literature, film and television that have captivated me in this way - and in each instance the character was kept by the writer partly in the shadows. Some of those characters are: Spike in Btvs/Ats, (Angel in the second season of ATS briefly and second season of BTVs when he became Angelus), Han Solo in the first two Star Wars films, Lymond, T.E. Lawrence in Lawrence of Arabia, and Sir John Smythe in Elizabeth Peters Vicky Bliss mysteries (not a fan of Peters, haven't been able to make it through any of her other books, but Sir Hohn Smythe captivated me to such an extent that I devoured those mysteries.)

It's the character who dances in and out of the shadows, whose actions can be interpreted in more than one way. For example Spike's actions in Becoming, numerous interpretations are possible. Characters that inspire lengthy and spirited debates - these fascinate and enthrall me.

Cutting, pasting. I have heard much about these Chronicles on lj. Saw them at the library but didn't know which to do first. Can you recommend which one should go first or does it matter? They sound fascinating.

and in each instance the character was kept by the writer partly in the shadows. Oooh, I agree. More to be revealed and more to keep us fascinated and coming back for more. My want and wish at the end of any good tv-show, book, film, is that this world I have been introduced to shouldn't end. If I can say that, I am satisfied, but not really. Such frustration! LOL

The first book in the LC is The Game of Kings, followed by Queens Play, The Disorderly Knights, Pawns in Frankincense, The Ringed Castle, and finally Checkmate. Yes, all of the titles are chess references.

It's a good idea to read them in order. There are so many important characters, besides Lymond, and complex plot developments to keep track of from book to book, it can be dizzying. However, it's worth the trouble because it's such a fascinating fictional world to be immersed in. There's also a Dunnett Companion book for historical references and translations of the polyglot Lymond's various tangential remarks in other languages.

When I finished the LC I didn't want it to end either! I've re-read all the books at least 2-3 times and there are always new things you find that you can't believe you missed the first time. Hell, folks on the Marzipan lists are constantly debating over certain plot points. Dunnett did not believe in coddling her readers. Even when asked point blank about something, she would always reply that the answer was in the books and it was up to the reader to figure it out. Thus, the endless debates online!

Enjoy!

punkinpuss

Thanks punkinpuss. I have seen your responses around LJ. You should get one :-)

Diving into the Chronicles. Thank you both for convincing me to do so!

Thank you very much, SK! I had a pretty great day, thanks to d'H. I hope you get to tango...

Fingers crossed for you 'kat!

That West Wing episode is supposed to be inspired by Aaron Sorkin visiting the TWoP forums and getting flamed on some errors he'd made. Never piss someone off with their own tv show is the moral of the story.

Glad to hear you had a good time meeting Herself_nyc! I really enjoy her journal and not just for the WIP, she has a great writing style even for the day to day stuff. Though I will say her story made me appreciate Angel a lot more than I had of late - put a bit of that old tragic Romantic hero back in.

Though I will say her story made me appreciate Angel a lot more than I had of late - put a bit of that old tragic Romantic hero back in.

Odd, I had the opposite response. Reading her fic has made me despise Angel. (As you may have guessed from my criticism on her lj regarding the J/A relationship.) Angel falling in love with and having romantic sex with Buffy and Spike's 32 year old daughter isn't working for me for numerous reasons. I know she means it to be Jane Eyre, but it's not. Maybe an incredibly creepy version. Part of it is the daughter - who is almost too virtuous to be true at times and now has painless visions no less. Part of it is Angel himself who comes across as a bit of creep - considering the things that lead up to this. (Sleeping with Spike, helping Spike go to the conduit, etc). At any rate - that portion of the story isn't working for *me*. But apparently it's working for others...so I just skip the J/A sections, refrain from commenting on it, and read the S/B, and other character sections. The way she's set it up - you can fortunately do that. That's another problem - her set up seems to be - look *good* romance with j/A, and look bad romance with s/B, which bugs me on a certain level because of Angel's action prior to sleeping with J.

Interesting! I'll admit that I'm strange in that I like Angel more when he is despicable - I like seeing him as the weak man, the dark man, the guy in love with pain who despite all that still tries to do good. It's Angel as the unquestioned Champion that drives me nuts. The only way Not Fade Away works for me is by seeing Angel as completely corrupted in the end, yet still fighting on.

I agree that Jem is falling on the wrong side of Mary Sue a lot of the time, but I sense there is a certain amount of an author crushing on her own creation going on so there doesn't seem much point in commenting on that. There is a weird element in both the writing and the comments of simultaneously loving S/B and wanting to see Buffy punished for various reasons. Some of Herself's earlier stories bother me because while they focus on Buffy they also make her look incredibly bad and incredibly passive. It's been an interesting experience peering into someone else's writing process, and in my own response to it - my instincts, from too many years in tv, often have me wanting to say, "dude, why are you cutting away from the action? Where's the through-line?" I need screenplay rehab.

I'll admit that I'm strange in that I like Angel more when he is despicable - I like seeing him as the weak man, the dark man, the guy in love with pain who despite all that still tries to do good. It's Angel as the unquestioned Champion that drives me nuts. The only way Not Fade Away works for me is by seeing Angel as completely corrupted in the end, yet still fighting on.

Ah. Now that would work better for me if I sensed she meant for me to see him as being despicable here. (I have this odd feeling that the writer means him to come across as heroic and good. Could be wrong. But having read her other fic - it feels like she's going that route. Then again we are in Jem's point of view and you are right the writer is crushing on her own creation. That's the problem with creating non-canon characters in fanfic...you have a tendency to fall into Mary Sue territory without meaning to.)

I agree - I don't like *champion* Angel, not because it's too sweet.
Just painfully cheesy and dull. I love Not Fade Away because he does these ambiguous things, to fight. He's more of an *anti-hero* in S5 ATS than a hero and that fascinates.

There is a weird element in both the writing and the comments of simultaneously loving S/B and wanting to see Buffy punished for various reasons.

Ah Buffy. Herself like many fanfic writers who became enthralled by B/S in S6 and S7, has serious Buffy issues. The way ME chose to depict the B/S relationship and Buffy in S6 and S7 caused a couple of interesting reactions in the viewers. One group despised Spike, the other despised Buffy. You see it in the fic. There's all these fics that are obsessed with punishing and redeeming Spike after Seeing Red.
In contrast there's all these fics obsessed with punishing and redeeming Buffy after Dead Things, Beneath You, Same Time Same Place and Chosen. Buffy and Spike became in some ways the most ambiguous and complex characters in S6 and S7. People loved to hate them. I admit, I'm one of the fans who struggled with Buffy in S7 (not S6, I completely understood her in that Season), S7 - she bugged me. And I dealt with my anger at the Scooby Gang and Buffy through the evil fanfic - where I fully intended to kill the little witch, but somehow through the writing process began to understand her again...and couldn't. I think that may be what you are seeing in this fic - the author working through her own subconscious issues with the character.

My problems with s7 are legion, but chief among them is how the show took Buffy away from us and then never re-established the connection sufficiently. Worst of all I think the extent of the disconnect was never realized by ME.

But yes, I think the desire to punish characters is a kind of power dynamic - certain characters are seen as having special status, which they do 'cause they're generally the leads, a kind of inherent rightness that creates a desire to see them brought down. Hey I did it in my response above with Angel, I love it when his faults are made evident, and I feel a few twinges of it with Jem - why are the cards so stacked in her favour? Writing is of course the ultimate way to exercise control over characters so there are all these punishment themes for the ones that bug us. The thing is, I think S/B in s6 was completely about power and punishment, where the question of who was in control, who had the power or who was right or wrong was constantly shifting - which is why a blanket Buffy=bad statement is so frustrating to read.

I think what also upsets a lot of people about S/B is that it flies in the face of the traditional romance where it's about the man coming to realize his feelings. Buffy may have never loved Spike in the way we would have expected. Buffy's rejection of Spike is seen by some because of this as a rejection of love entirely, perhaps because there's something wrong with her - even the show took this position to some extent - so a certain amount of punishment is justified.

Of course I think Herself's story is really well done, but I think she's hitting a lot of the problems the show had - especially with issues of the soul and morality, and varying intrepretations of characters' actions.

My only issues with Herself's story is the Jem/Angel deal which didn't happen until around the 70th? chapter.
Everything else is actually fascinating to me. The Johnny character is a fascinating study in the Oedipal syndrom taken to an extreme, dealing with issues the writers dealt with to a degree in S4 ATS and LMPTM.
Also the contrast between Johnny being ensouled and Spike is one the most fascinating explorations of what it means to have a conscience and how we deal with one I've seen handled in fanfic. So many people want to make it an either/or prospect, herself managed to make it more ambiguous actually. (Have to admit, I was a little sorry it ended, yet saw the ending as inevitable).

My problems with s7 are legion, but chief among them is how the show took Buffy away from us and then never re-established the connection sufficiently. Worst of all I think the extent of the disconnect was never realized by ME.

I'd agree. Instead of exploring Buffy's issues with the characters they had - and working to rebuild or at least examine the breakdown of the characters and their relationships in the previous season - ME made the mistake of introducing 50 more people into the show, to the degree that Buffy's characterization got a bit lost in the mix. I honestly believe the show began to break apart and disintergrate the moment Giles brought the potentials to Sunnydale.

The thing is, I think S/B in s6 was completely about power and punishment, where the question of who was in control, who had the power or who was right or wrong was constantly shifting - which is why a blanket Buffy=bad statement is so frustrating to read.

Agree. People want to simplify it. Also like you stated, it flies in the face of traditional romantic relationships. It deals with power dynamics in relationships. Actually all of S6 dealt with the idea of power/control dynamics in relationships. Neither character in that relationship was good or bad, which was why it was so interesting.

Also the examination of Buffy and how she loves and her relations with men is very dark. Horrific in places. We don't get the traditional romantic ending of the girl and the guy falling into each other's arms. Instead the girl moves on to greener pastures, remembering and loving the guys, but not waiting for them. It's actually in some respects a feminist statement - how a woman can build a life without a man being central to it, he can be a part of her life, but he is not the end result or the reason. This is a statement that goes against most of the gothics - Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Rebecca, Dracula, etc. As much as S7 bugged me (like you my problems are legion), I can't fault that statement, I just wish they'd written it better.

I think most people would put the break in s7 with the arrival of the Potentials. Things had been going along so well up until that point, and while Never Leave Me wasn't a perfect episode, the B/S conversations in that really seemed to be getting to the heart of the matter, an emotional honesty that never really returned. I know ME was intending the Potentials' arrival to be a turning point, one of those Act 2 twists, but I don't think the direction the season took afterwards was thought out.

Instead the girl moves on to greener pastures, remembering and loving the guys, but not waiting for them. It's actually in some respects a feminist statement - how a woman can build a life without a man being central to it, he can be a part of her life, but he is not the end result or the reason. This is a statement that goes against most of the gothics - Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Rebecca, Dracula, etc. As much as S7 bugged me (like you my problems are legion), I can't fault that statement, I just wish they'd written it better.

I know! I really think the intent was for Buffy's heart at the end of s7 to be healed and reawakened, so that when she says the big "I love you" to Spike it's to show that she can both feel love and be open to love again. It opens up a world of possibilities for her but still honours Spike's role. But it was executed badly with too many shortcuts so that a season's worth of Buffy's coldness, along with that horribly muddled Angel reunion, made it seem like she was tossing Spike a crumb before she left him to die. Sigh.

In any case I am so looking forward to the rest of Herself's story. It's exactly what fiction should be - taking a possibility and exploring it and in the course of doing so creating a rich world of her own.

In any case I am so looking forward to the rest of Herself's story. It's exactly what fiction should be - taking a possibility and exploring it and in the course of doing so creating a rich world of her own.

revdorothyl has done an interesting post on how we play with fiction and how fanfiction is created. It's friends locked unfortunately - possibly because she does a lot of quoting and is afraid of people cut and pasting too much. But the gist is that the richer the original universe - the more able someone is to extrapolate from it and create their own. She discusses how the more we play with the universe - the more we tear it apart, the more real it becomes to us and the more personal. She uses the Velveteen Rabbit as an example - the more torn and played with the rabbit is - the more real it becomes. Also that if a series begins to break down in later seasons not always giving the viewer what they want - the more the viewer wants to fill in the gaps and create their own stories from it. B/S is used as an example - the unresolved tension of their relationship causes viewers to want to find solace, often in the fic of others or their own.

Herself's fic is very good - because it has me writing my own versions in my head. I'm playing with it. When I start doing that with a story - you've got my attention.
The story, like revdorothyl notes - becomes like the Velveteen Rabbit, it becomes real to us, it takes on a life of its own - when we challenge it. When we question.
It's also an example of how we aren't willing to accept things people hand us at face value. A theory that makes me feel less guilty for reading fanfic.

I really think the intent was for Buffy's heart at the end of s7 to be healed and reawakened, so that when she says the big "I love you" to Spike it's to show that she can both feel love and be open to love again. It opens up a world of possibilities for her but still honours Spike's role. But it was executed badly with too many shortcuts so that a season's worth of Buffy's coldness, along with that horribly muddled Angel reunion, made it seem like she was tossing Spike a crumb before she left him to die. Sigh.

The problem was in the execution. If they'd skipped the cookie dough speech and not given into the temptation of having Angel appear one last time - this may have worked better. Not sure. The other problems of course were the short-cuts. I may never forgive ME for the amulet and scythe - two devices that threatened to lower the series to the level of camp. ;-)

Oh yeah, Joss will have to answer to the great Story Editor in the Sky for the amulet and scythe some day...

I do think that Angel's reappearance could have worked if they had treated it as a setup for Buffy's "I love you" at the end. I agreed with the idea behind the cookie dough, that Buffy doesn't know herself well enough to decide on her life, but if they had suggested a bit more self-doubt... Perhaps acknowledging that she's not the same girl that fell in love with Angel, that she may not know what love is, or if she is capable of that kind of love anymore, along with the fear of loving someone knowing that they will inevitably leave her - you know the stuff Buffy'd been wondering about for two years - it would have given Buffy's actions throughout the episode a bit more emotional resonance. Of course hindsight and all that stuff.

Thanks for the luck...I think I need some.

That West Wing episode is supposed to be inspired by Aaron Sorkin visiting the TWoP forums and getting flamed on some errors he'd made. Never piss someone off with their own tv show is the moral of the story.

LOL! I'd guessed one of the writers had been online, but I didn't know they'd visited TWoP. Oh that's just perfect. Sorkin's right - they are *hysterical* and not necessarily in a good way. ;-)

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The Interview Tango and other unrelated things...

Dunnett/BtVS discussion list

Re: Dunnett/BtVS discussion list

Re: Dunnett/BtVS discussion list

Re: Dunnett/BtVS discussion list

Re: Lymond Chronicles

Re: Lymond Chronicles

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Had the opposite reaction..

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Thanks and...