![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
Justice League Film Comparison - The Importance of Original Score..
If you want to know how music or the musical score (orchestration & songs) can drastically alter a film - go no further than the Whedon cut vs. the Snyder cut Justice League films. [Caveat - I'm not expert on this, a lot of things about musical scores go over my head.]
I always knew musical scoring was vitally important to film, after all silent films are mainly just music and visuals - but when I compared those two films, it smacked me upside the head. You can change the entire meaning and tone of a film with just your selection of the music.
The Music of Justice League - is its own epic tale of Death and Rebirth
Holkenborg, now 53, is far from the first film composer to lose his spot at the eleventh hour. But he might be the first to ever get his job back. Four years after he was canned, Holkenborg's name is back in the main credits of Zack Snyder's Justice League, the four-hour epic premiering today on HBO Max. And his equally long score — a colossal mashup of operatic orchestra, rock, synthesizers and wailing vocals — is, for some, as hotly anticipated as the expanded exploits of Ben Affleck's Batman and company.
...
The studio turned to the wisecracking Joss Whedon, known for his work on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Marvel's own super-team franchise, The Avengers. Though credited with merely finishing Snyder's cut, Whedon actually rewrote and reshot as much as 75 percent of the film that was released in theaters on Nov. 17, 2017.
Holkenborg says he had just one meeting with the director. "We did not necessarily have a great click," he says. "I mean, I wasn't sitting there being thrilled to talk to him, because he was quite negative on the cut that was existing and what we worked on together. He was negative about the music that was in there at that point. He was negative about a lot of things in it. And I was like, 'Hey, you're talking about my friend here.' So I wasn't really inclined to take that further. I spoke to Zack that night and said, 'I'm leaning towards not doing it.' But then the next morning, I got a phone call that [Whedon] was going to work with Danny Elfman."
And this Interview may work better - it's more in depth.
Holkenborg had six months to write a brand new four-hour original score, involving previously conceived musical ideas by his mentor and partner, Hans Zimmer, from the first two movies in the Snyder-helmed DC trilogy, along with brand new ones. Holkenborg's process was a very free one due to the particular and somewhat unusual circumstances of the film's release. He went on to explain:
[Snyder said] 'Keep in mind when you start that the shackles are off.' Which basically meant that whatever my vision, together with Zack, was going to be the final vision and there was no interference of studio and producers on this particular film. Which, as some of you know, is extremely unique.
While the Whedon Cut and Snyder Cut both follow the same basic plot, the Snyder Cut makes changes and adds scenes, which provide the necessary context that Whedon was missing. And while Elfman's score was in no way a bad one, Holkenborg's return to the project allowed Snyder to release a film more faithful to his original vision involving Holkenborg's electrifying rock score in all its glory.
So..Tom Holkenberg who is closer in style to Hans Zimmer, is replaced by Danny Elfman.
The article by the way is really interesting - it points out that Holkenberg is by no means the first composer to be replaced on a film score, but he may well be the first to come back and re-score that film several years later.
I'm going to try to show the differences in a few clips. But, I know of a man who is blind - that enjoys the Looney Tunes Cartoons - based solely on the score of the films and the sound.
But first - a link to an Interview with Danny Elfman, the composer on Whedon's verison. Danny Elfman hates when Reboots Scrap Classic Themes - explaining why he dropped in other films scores into the Whedon Cut.
"I got the call from Joss very last-second," Elfman tells Heat Vision. "I got the call and it was, ‘You have to decide now and then go to work tomorrow.’"
There's been plenty of speculation about how much of the final product is Snyder's and how much is Whedon's. Elfman says that much of the film was being shot as he wrote the score, and that he never scored any of the retooled Snyder footage that didn't make it into the film. Things were so last-minute that at times he wouldn't be composing to actual footage.
"I had a lot of storyboards in place of action. There would be full scenes and then a five-minute sequence of storyboards. Honestly, it was like working on an animated film," says Elman. "I didn’t score any of the unused footage — the movie that came out is the movie I scored, it was just in very rough form."
Elfman and Whedon previously worked together on 2015's Avengers: Age of Ultron, another situation he describes as another "three-alarm call." He shared scoring credits with Brian Tyler.
"I’ve only worked with [Whedon] twice and it’s been under those circumstances," says Elfman. "With Avengers, it was trickier because I was working around half a score. So, I had to rescore either half or two-thirds of the film, and that made for a squirrelly process. On Justice League, it was a blank slate. I only had to work around a Leonard Cohen song."
Whedon turned Elfman loose on the Justice League score, asking only that he add humanity, warmth and some fan payoffs, including restoring his original theme from 1989's Batman into the Dark Knight's mythos, as well as bringing in John Williams' classic Superman theme.
"I twisted it and my Batman theme … the DNA is there, but the themes aren’t necessarily obvious in the film. Except for one specific moment in the final battle," says Elfman. "Joss said, ‘Let’s do it [Batman’s theme] on the nose. Fans love this kind of stuff.’"
So two completely different styles and why we have two different styles. The reason for the different styles - is Snyder had been hired to make an adult film series based on DC superheroes, adapted from Frank Miller's take on the heroes - he was picking up the mantle from Christopher Nolan of the Batman trilogy. While this was happening, Marvel came out with their jaunty fun take on the Marvel franchise. A massive change from the previous X-men and Spiderman films. The Marvel films - since they appealed to the whole family and were PG-14, and very accessible to the mainstream audience - made billions world-wide, while the darker DC films did not - they were adult superhero films, they weren't going to. Also they had a darker dystopian theme, and the audience wanted a more uplifting one during the Trump Era.
WB wanted the financial returns that Marvel had - so grabbed the director/writer of Marvel's Avengers to re-tool Justice League in less than five months. The rest you already know or can glean from the above article links.
Here's how they differ:
* Snyder's version is scored around Allison Crowe's cover of Leonard Cohen's song "Hallelujah", which is sung as a coda or in the end credits. He chose it - because it was his daughter, Autumn (who tragically died), favorite song.
* Whedon's version is scored around Sigrid's cover of Leonard Cohen's song Everybody Knows.
Now let's look at the scoring of the prologues...
* Tom Holkenberg's Prologue and Part 1 - Superman Rising: A Book of Hourse
vs.
* Danny Eflman's Score starting with Everybody Knows
And the scores...
* Zack Snyders - Justice League Score by Tom Holkenberg
* < A HREF="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb-4yGh2QbM"> Danny Elfman's full score
Now a specific scene with two different song choices:
The sequence of Aquaman saving a crew from a shipwreck is almost exactly the same in the Snyder Cut, although there are no added jokes about him calling the captain “Ahab” in the bar. Additionally, there’s a really nice grace note of Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds’ “There is a Kingdom” playing when Aquaman goes to brood stoically before a raging storm. It’s exactly the same as in the Whedon Cut, but Whedon makes it generic blockbuster filler with a White Stripes song playing in the background. Snyder goes for a mournful, reflective tone that resembles the better elements of his version of Justice League.
From Den of Geek.
I'm using this as an example since Whedon basically uses Snyder's footage, what he changes is mainly the score from Holkenman to Elfman, also he edits down the footage. The differences between the two show the tonal shift in the film, also how we feel about Aquaman as a character and hero shifts as well.
1. Joss Whedon/Danny Elfman version - White Stripes
2. Snyder/Holkenberg - Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
I couldn't get the actual clip for the Snyder - since it's protected right now.
The take-away from the shifts in musical score - show that Whedon chose to mock the action of the film, and make fun of it. There's an underscore of a kind of wise-cracking, snarky humor here. Also, Aquaman's scene is cut short in Whedon's version - we don't see Jason take off his shirt in close up and part the waves.
This clip clearly grabbed by a fan off of their watch of the film on HBO Max - rather choppy unfortunately, but gives you an idea?
Note it is not like that in the actual version - the fan had troubles getting a good clip.
Elfman states in his interview that Whedon and the studio wanted a wise-cracking, jaunty feel to the movie, and to reuse old songs, and old theme music from previous films. Elfman unlike Holkenberg did a rush job and was told to write his score around the song "Everybody Knows", a choice that heightens the theme of class issues, and focuses on class, and division.
Whedon's film is about class divides, power, and heroes saving folks. Snyder's film, which is much darker, is about unity, and coming together to fight the encroaching darkness, also about the difficult decisions made by those in charge, and what it means to be a hero in today's world. Snyder wasn't making fun of the characters, nor did he feel the need to undercut the characters, while Whedon did.
The music choices reflect the different director's styles. Elfman - is interesting choice - since he scored Burton's take on the Batman franchise. He's been described as a jaunty composer, who does an almost comical score to films. Light and airy. Snarky. While Holkenberg is similar to Hans Zimmer, and closer in tone to the scoring of Nolan's films - Hans Zimmer was the co-composer of Nolan's films. And mentor to Holkenberg. Zimmer also co-composed Bvs.S.
Note Snyder inherited the DC film franchise from Nolan.
Add to that the song choices. Nick Cave & Bad Seed's ballad - "There is a Kingdom that Needs a King" - referring to Atlantis vs. The White Stripes Song that Whedon uses - that conveys an almost frat boy dynamic or loner feel. Whedon also cuts Aquaman's majestic exit and his discussion about taking his place as King of Atlantis with Vulcan. The song choice shows the decisions each director made regarding their characters and where those characters should end up next.
Finally, it should be noted that of the two directors and composers - one thought about their score in great depth and took the time to compose it, and fit it to the film, and determine if it worked with the tone and the tonal shifts in the film. The other did it quickly as a rush job, didn't take the time to see if it fit tonally, and didn't check the tonal shifts or how it revealed the characters.
Take-away? Music matters in film scoring. It will change how we think about a film and how it haunts us. The Whedon version - I forgot about immediately, well for the most part - what stuck with me was how jarring and off it seemed tonally. Part of the reason for that is the choice in music. While I adore Leonard Cohen's Everybody Knows, which I first heard in an old Christian Slater teen film, Pump up the Volume, it does not work in Justice League. It sets the tone early on - as a kind of mockery of everyone left behind. The mocking tone becomes grating after a bit and jarring. The Snyder version, however, haunts me. In part, because the music and the visuals work so well together. And it seems to enhance the footage, without outright mocking it.
I always knew musical scoring was vitally important to film, after all silent films are mainly just music and visuals - but when I compared those two films, it smacked me upside the head. You can change the entire meaning and tone of a film with just your selection of the music.
The Music of Justice League - is its own epic tale of Death and Rebirth
Holkenborg, now 53, is far from the first film composer to lose his spot at the eleventh hour. But he might be the first to ever get his job back. Four years after he was canned, Holkenborg's name is back in the main credits of Zack Snyder's Justice League, the four-hour epic premiering today on HBO Max. And his equally long score — a colossal mashup of operatic orchestra, rock, synthesizers and wailing vocals — is, for some, as hotly anticipated as the expanded exploits of Ben Affleck's Batman and company.
...
The studio turned to the wisecracking Joss Whedon, known for his work on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Marvel's own super-team franchise, The Avengers. Though credited with merely finishing Snyder's cut, Whedon actually rewrote and reshot as much as 75 percent of the film that was released in theaters on Nov. 17, 2017.
Holkenborg says he had just one meeting with the director. "We did not necessarily have a great click," he says. "I mean, I wasn't sitting there being thrilled to talk to him, because he was quite negative on the cut that was existing and what we worked on together. He was negative about the music that was in there at that point. He was negative about a lot of things in it. And I was like, 'Hey, you're talking about my friend here.' So I wasn't really inclined to take that further. I spoke to Zack that night and said, 'I'm leaning towards not doing it.' But then the next morning, I got a phone call that [Whedon] was going to work with Danny Elfman."
And this Interview may work better - it's more in depth.
Holkenborg had six months to write a brand new four-hour original score, involving previously conceived musical ideas by his mentor and partner, Hans Zimmer, from the first two movies in the Snyder-helmed DC trilogy, along with brand new ones. Holkenborg's process was a very free one due to the particular and somewhat unusual circumstances of the film's release. He went on to explain:
[Snyder said] 'Keep in mind when you start that the shackles are off.' Which basically meant that whatever my vision, together with Zack, was going to be the final vision and there was no interference of studio and producers on this particular film. Which, as some of you know, is extremely unique.
While the Whedon Cut and Snyder Cut both follow the same basic plot, the Snyder Cut makes changes and adds scenes, which provide the necessary context that Whedon was missing. And while Elfman's score was in no way a bad one, Holkenborg's return to the project allowed Snyder to release a film more faithful to his original vision involving Holkenborg's electrifying rock score in all its glory.
So..Tom Holkenberg who is closer in style to Hans Zimmer, is replaced by Danny Elfman.
The article by the way is really interesting - it points out that Holkenberg is by no means the first composer to be replaced on a film score, but he may well be the first to come back and re-score that film several years later.
I'm going to try to show the differences in a few clips. But, I know of a man who is blind - that enjoys the Looney Tunes Cartoons - based solely on the score of the films and the sound.
But first - a link to an Interview with Danny Elfman, the composer on Whedon's verison. Danny Elfman hates when Reboots Scrap Classic Themes - explaining why he dropped in other films scores into the Whedon Cut.
"I got the call from Joss very last-second," Elfman tells Heat Vision. "I got the call and it was, ‘You have to decide now and then go to work tomorrow.’"
There's been plenty of speculation about how much of the final product is Snyder's and how much is Whedon's. Elfman says that much of the film was being shot as he wrote the score, and that he never scored any of the retooled Snyder footage that didn't make it into the film. Things were so last-minute that at times he wouldn't be composing to actual footage.
"I had a lot of storyboards in place of action. There would be full scenes and then a five-minute sequence of storyboards. Honestly, it was like working on an animated film," says Elman. "I didn’t score any of the unused footage — the movie that came out is the movie I scored, it was just in very rough form."
Elfman and Whedon previously worked together on 2015's Avengers: Age of Ultron, another situation he describes as another "three-alarm call." He shared scoring credits with Brian Tyler.
"I’ve only worked with [Whedon] twice and it’s been under those circumstances," says Elfman. "With Avengers, it was trickier because I was working around half a score. So, I had to rescore either half or two-thirds of the film, and that made for a squirrelly process. On Justice League, it was a blank slate. I only had to work around a Leonard Cohen song."
Whedon turned Elfman loose on the Justice League score, asking only that he add humanity, warmth and some fan payoffs, including restoring his original theme from 1989's Batman into the Dark Knight's mythos, as well as bringing in John Williams' classic Superman theme.
"I twisted it and my Batman theme … the DNA is there, but the themes aren’t necessarily obvious in the film. Except for one specific moment in the final battle," says Elfman. "Joss said, ‘Let’s do it [Batman’s theme] on the nose. Fans love this kind of stuff.’"
So two completely different styles and why we have two different styles. The reason for the different styles - is Snyder had been hired to make an adult film series based on DC superheroes, adapted from Frank Miller's take on the heroes - he was picking up the mantle from Christopher Nolan of the Batman trilogy. While this was happening, Marvel came out with their jaunty fun take on the Marvel franchise. A massive change from the previous X-men and Spiderman films. The Marvel films - since they appealed to the whole family and were PG-14, and very accessible to the mainstream audience - made billions world-wide, while the darker DC films did not - they were adult superhero films, they weren't going to. Also they had a darker dystopian theme, and the audience wanted a more uplifting one during the Trump Era.
WB wanted the financial returns that Marvel had - so grabbed the director/writer of Marvel's Avengers to re-tool Justice League in less than five months. The rest you already know or can glean from the above article links.
Here's how they differ:
* Snyder's version is scored around Allison Crowe's cover of Leonard Cohen's song "Hallelujah", which is sung as a coda or in the end credits. He chose it - because it was his daughter, Autumn (who tragically died), favorite song.
* Whedon's version is scored around Sigrid's cover of Leonard Cohen's song Everybody Knows.
Now let's look at the scoring of the prologues...
* Tom Holkenberg's Prologue and Part 1 - Superman Rising: A Book of Hourse
vs.
* Danny Eflman's Score starting with Everybody Knows
And the scores...
* Zack Snyders - Justice League Score by Tom Holkenberg
* < A HREF="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb-4yGh2QbM"> Danny Elfman's full score
Now a specific scene with two different song choices:
The sequence of Aquaman saving a crew from a shipwreck is almost exactly the same in the Snyder Cut, although there are no added jokes about him calling the captain “Ahab” in the bar. Additionally, there’s a really nice grace note of Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds’ “There is a Kingdom” playing when Aquaman goes to brood stoically before a raging storm. It’s exactly the same as in the Whedon Cut, but Whedon makes it generic blockbuster filler with a White Stripes song playing in the background. Snyder goes for a mournful, reflective tone that resembles the better elements of his version of Justice League.
From Den of Geek.
I'm using this as an example since Whedon basically uses Snyder's footage, what he changes is mainly the score from Holkenman to Elfman, also he edits down the footage. The differences between the two show the tonal shift in the film, also how we feel about Aquaman as a character and hero shifts as well.
1. Joss Whedon/Danny Elfman version - White Stripes
2. Snyder/Holkenberg - Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
I couldn't get the actual clip for the Snyder - since it's protected right now.
The take-away from the shifts in musical score - show that Whedon chose to mock the action of the film, and make fun of it. There's an underscore of a kind of wise-cracking, snarky humor here. Also, Aquaman's scene is cut short in Whedon's version - we don't see Jason take off his shirt in close up and part the waves.
This clip clearly grabbed by a fan off of their watch of the film on HBO Max - rather choppy unfortunately, but gives you an idea?
Note it is not like that in the actual version - the fan had troubles getting a good clip.
Elfman states in his interview that Whedon and the studio wanted a wise-cracking, jaunty feel to the movie, and to reuse old songs, and old theme music from previous films. Elfman unlike Holkenberg did a rush job and was told to write his score around the song "Everybody Knows", a choice that heightens the theme of class issues, and focuses on class, and division.
Whedon's film is about class divides, power, and heroes saving folks. Snyder's film, which is much darker, is about unity, and coming together to fight the encroaching darkness, also about the difficult decisions made by those in charge, and what it means to be a hero in today's world. Snyder wasn't making fun of the characters, nor did he feel the need to undercut the characters, while Whedon did.
The music choices reflect the different director's styles. Elfman - is interesting choice - since he scored Burton's take on the Batman franchise. He's been described as a jaunty composer, who does an almost comical score to films. Light and airy. Snarky. While Holkenberg is similar to Hans Zimmer, and closer in tone to the scoring of Nolan's films - Hans Zimmer was the co-composer of Nolan's films. And mentor to Holkenberg. Zimmer also co-composed Bvs.S.
Note Snyder inherited the DC film franchise from Nolan.
Add to that the song choices. Nick Cave & Bad Seed's ballad - "There is a Kingdom that Needs a King" - referring to Atlantis vs. The White Stripes Song that Whedon uses - that conveys an almost frat boy dynamic or loner feel. Whedon also cuts Aquaman's majestic exit and his discussion about taking his place as King of Atlantis with Vulcan. The song choice shows the decisions each director made regarding their characters and where those characters should end up next.
Finally, it should be noted that of the two directors and composers - one thought about their score in great depth and took the time to compose it, and fit it to the film, and determine if it worked with the tone and the tonal shifts in the film. The other did it quickly as a rush job, didn't take the time to see if it fit tonally, and didn't check the tonal shifts or how it revealed the characters.
Take-away? Music matters in film scoring. It will change how we think about a film and how it haunts us. The Whedon version - I forgot about immediately, well for the most part - what stuck with me was how jarring and off it seemed tonally. Part of the reason for that is the choice in music. While I adore Leonard Cohen's Everybody Knows, which I first heard in an old Christian Slater teen film, Pump up the Volume, it does not work in Justice League. It sets the tone early on - as a kind of mockery of everyone left behind. The mocking tone becomes grating after a bit and jarring. The Snyder version, however, haunts me. In part, because the music and the visuals work so well together. And it seems to enhance the footage, without outright mocking it.
no subject
no subject
I took a couple courses on film studies in grad school and the musical score was one of the most fascinating to me because it evokes so much emotion yet is often overlooked by the audience. There's a documentary I watched last year called 'Score'* which was rather interesting in a lot of respects (made me realize what a truly white-male dominated segment of movie making it is in other respects).
*(FYI - not to be confused with the movie called The Score, which is a Robert De Niro film and a completely different kettle of fish- haha)
no subject
I don't know if I'm fannish? But I am fascinated by it. It's a nice distraction at the moment. ;-)
I'm not sure anyone reading my posts is that interested. Scans Daily got into it for about a day and that was it. Which makes sense - to get into it - you have to be a film geek, a superhero film geek, and into superhero comics. And hitting those three simulataneously...plus have HBO Max, and like adult versions of the superhero films and comics. Talk about a narrow nitch.
no subject
But I am fascinated by it. It's a nice distraction at the moment. ;-)
I guess that's kind of my definition of fannish? And I think a lot of people are into those three things, I've seen a lot of chatter about the Snyder cut. I like that it's generated more of a meta sort of discussion that talks about the movie as a creative craft - vs. the tumblr version of fannish which is mostly reblogging pretty pictures (which is fine, but not very in depth).
no subject
Outside of briefly on scans daily, it's been silent. I feel like I'm off by myself discussing this - to myself. LOL! Which means my fascination isn't going to last long. Can fandom die in a vacuum? Apparently.