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Movies: Meta on Spiderman No Way Home & King Richard
1.Spiderman No Way Home - which is kind of necessary prior to the flick Dr. Strange and the Multi-verse of Madness - since Spiderman leads directly into the Dr. Strange film.
The more I think about this film, the more impressed I am with it - also the more I find myself appreciating the last trio of Spiderman films over the previous ones. What this trio did differently from both the comics and the previous films - by looping them in with the broader MCU film verse and starting with Peter in high school - is create an interesting, unintentional and unrecognized villain at the center. The villain at the center of the films is who we think it is - and in truth, he's not really a villain, and is rather well-meaning actually.
A superhero series is only as good as its villains. And it works best when the villain isn't something you can kill or put in prison, but something bigger and not as easily resolved.
If the ghost of Tony Stark was the unseen and unintentional villain of Spiderman: Far From Home, along with an en absentia Nick Fury and his well-meaning, if disorganized Skrull invested Shield, then...well, guess who it is here?
Doctor Strange is the unwitting and unknown villain at the center of Spiderman: No Way Home much the same way Stark was in the first two films. The villains in each of the previous Spiderman films were created by Tony Stark - and after Stark. Spiderman by virtue of interacting with Stark or knowing him - unwittingly became their target. Both let Parker know at various points that they aren't after him - they are after Stark, he's just in the way or a pawn. Stark's hubris and tendency to be callous towards anyone who isn't perceived as bright and capable as he is - creates his own villains. When in truth, Stark's worst enemy is Stark. He means well - but more often than not his influence is rather toxic and wrecks havoc on his friends lives. By gifting the nanonite tech to Spiderman - without any explanation of what it does or entails (just that Peter will figure it out) - he endangers the world and Peter along with it - in Spiderman No Way Home. To Stark - weapons are toys, and he fails to learn the consequences of playing with them - until it's almost too late. If Stark was the poster child on how to be mindful with science and technology, and not treat it like a "toy" then Doctor Strange is the poster child in regards to magic.
Which kind of makes these Spiderman films far more interesting then the previous films - in that enemy is well not so clear cut. We like the bad guy. We're even rooting for him. We like his friendship with Spiderman. Like Peter - we perceive him as a hero, and a helper. But is he?
It reminded me a little of The Dark Knight film in that regard - in which the bad guy is more often than not the well-meaning heroes. Even Daredevil an actual vigilante makes an appearance as Peter's lawyer - because Peter is being perceived as a vigilante, when in actuality Peter's a hero, unlike Daredevil, Peter tries not to kill people (those who die in the previous films, Peter is actually trying to save.)
What's also interesting in Spiderman - is that Peter takes the blame for everything, and Strange lets him. When in reality - Strange does quite a few things colossally wrong - and his inability to take responsibility for any of it, makes Strange a kind of anti-hero in a way. He reminds me a lot of Tony Stark - with his sarcastic quips, he's devil-may-care attitude, his air of entitlement, and self-importance. Also like Stark - he doesn't take accountability for his own actions - instead he blames Spiderman/Peter for everything that went wrong. It makes the movie interesting - and Cumberbatch much like Downy Jr in Ultron, is perfect for this type of role.
Both are exceedingly charismatic and likable - even though they are ultimately responsible for everything that went wrong.
I was fascinated by Strange's character. Actually the whole film is fascinating from multiple standpoints. It reminds me a little of Spiderman: Into the Spiderverse - which is equally excellent for similar reasons.
Stephen Strange from the very beginning - is notable for his colossal hubris. He gets into the accident that injures his hand because of his hubris and inattention. Or lack of mindfulness. He's so full of himself - that he often isn't mindful of the little things. Thinking that's beneath him. He treats magic much the same way he treated surgery. Similar to Stark - he's the brightest guy in the room - and knows it, seeing little room for improvement. He's never really had to work that hard at anything. That's the problem. Also, much like Stark, he doesn't really have a family or connections - just work related ones. It's not until Stark has those connections - that Stark begins to care about someone other than himself.
In direct contrast to Peter - who doesn't see himself as the smartest guy, if anything he's the opposite. Self-deprecating to a fault. But Peter has family, connections to the world. Aunt May who as a counter point to both Stark and Strange - pushes that we take care of others, feel empathy for their situations, and "with great power comes great responsibility" - we take accountability. Both Strange and Stark have great power - more than Peter - at their disposable, and both fail to hold themselves accountable - they are blaming others for their mistakes. Much like the five villains who pop into Peter's life from other universes - they are in a way extreme versions of Stark and Strange - demented fools obsessed with power at all costs.
Doctor Octupus
Doctor Connors
Electro
Sandman
Norman Osbourn - The Green Goblin
All lost souls - brilliant scientists much like Tony Stark. Entitled. Well-meaning, like Doctor Strange. Note two are Doctors. And the one who is almost killed - is the weapons manufacturer and tech businessman - Norman Osbourn is kind of a dark take on Tony Stark. Just as Doctor Connors who is a surgeon and healer - hunting a way to make people heal faster - is a dark take on Doctor Strange - who went abroad to find a cure for his hand, and found magic instead.
They all represent how not taking accountability or responsibility for their power and own actions, destroys their lives and everyone around them.
Peter in stark contrast is humble. All three Peter Parker's are - they lack confidence. They aren't wealthy. They aren't entitled. They are all poor kids from Queens living in run-down apartments not high-rises or castles. And it's Peter's lack of confidence and uncertainty that leads him to Strange's door to ask what appears to Peter to be a simple enough solution to major problem. Everyone knows who he is - if Strange could only undo it somehow with magic. And to be fair to Peter - Tony Stark and Strange and the Avengers themselves kind of set him on that road of easy short-cuts to resolve difficult problems, screw the consequences. With Stark it was science, with Strange it is magic. And both have dire consequences that neither seem to recognize or worse, take responsibility for. Stark doesn't for his gadgets which he gives to Peter without thinking, or any instruction whatsoever or supervision. Dangerous gadgets - if placed in the wrong hands, or that can be easily corrupted (as seen with Mysterio), but Stark uses them without thought - so doesn't see this as an issue. (That's the first movie). And Strange doesn't it as an issue either when he contemplates what he sees as a simple enough spell - which he does all the time and often thoughtlessly, without worrying over the consequences. He's even warned by his associate not to do it callously, that it crosses the line.
From the beginning - a few things about Doctor Strange seem a bit off, and if we think about it - they always were off. Strange got the time stone years ago, and was elevated because of how he handled an initial battle - but even in that battle - it's clear that the line between Strange and the villain is all too thin. And Strange's actions after that - stink of hubris, he gets away with it - though, with little to no consequences. The things that happen to him - aren't his fault up to now.
1. Peter walks into the sanctum and it's like he's walked into the aftermath of a blizzard.
Peter: Whoa, did you go nuts for a party or something?
Wong: No, one of the gateways was left open because a blizzard blew through. Don't slip - we don't have insurance.
Strange: It was left open because someone forgot to do a basic spell to close it.
Wong: Which would be you.
Strange: I much have higher duties than to waste time on such a basic spell.
Wong: Really? What? I'm the socerer supreme - I'm the one with the higher responsibilities - which I have to be seeing to. You're the associate.
Peter: Wait - he's the socerer supreme now?
Strange: When I blipped out for five years - he got it on a technicality.
2. Peter asks Strange to use the time stone to go back in time - change things, so not everyone finds out who he is. But Strange can't do that. Even if he had the time stone - he doesn't think its a good idea. Considering what they did to bring everyone back...had its own set of consequences. Plus it's gone. So not possible. However, Strange can do a simple forgetting spell. Make everyone forget Peter Parker is Spiderman.
Wong: No, you don't want to do that. That could have serious consequences if mishandled. It's a dangerous spell that we don't use - it can cross into a dark territory...
Strange: Oh please, it wasn't a problem when I made you forget the Moons on Rumpor party. It's a simple spell. I don't see a problem.
Wong leaves, and Strange starts the spell, stating along the way that well, it does mean everyone everywhere will forget that Peter Parker is Spiderman. But he's stating this as he's constructing the spell. He doesn't tell Peter the consequences prior to doing the spell. Also he pulls Peter into the spell-casting ring with him.
Peter appalled - says, "wait a minute, I don't want everyone to forget who I am...MJ needs to know, so does Ned, and Aunt May, and Happy...and.."
Doctor Strange who is mid-spell by this point, because he's not really listening to Peter - he's showing off much like Stark showed off his gadgetry to Peter, says - oh okay, we'll do that, and this...
And before long Strange's spell has been altered six times, to the point that he begins to lose control of it. He's furious with Peter for tampering with his spell. He doesn't blame himself at all. He's blameless - this is all on Peter.
Strange: Sorry, had to stop the spell. You changed it six times. Possibly for the best. What did the admission's office say when you called them.
Poor Peter tells Strange that he hadn't called admissions.
Strange: you came to me, before you talked to MIT? It didn't occur to you to talk to them first? You wasted my time? And caused me to do this spell when you could have talked to them first??
Strange thinks he has contained the spell. But alas no. It's now pulling into their universe everyone who knows that Peter Parker is Spiderman.
Including some nasty villains, and the other universe's Peter Parker's.
Even when Strange comes up with a way to send them all back, and to contain them until then - he doesn't listen to Peter. Who says that they can't just send the villains back to die. There has to be another way.
And as a result, Peter tries to save the villains. But the villains can't quite let go of their power - except for Doc Oc, who was more than happy to. Aunt May gets killed in the fracas. Peter does however with the help of his friends and Peter Parker alternates manage to cure and save the villains giving them all a second chance. But in the process - Strange's spell is corrupted by Osborn, and when Strange attempts it again, he loses control.
The only way to heal the cracks in the multi-verse - is for Peter to have Strange do a forgetting spell that makes everyone in the multi-verse forget Peter.
And Strange throughout - blames Peter, as does Peter. He takes no responsibility for any of it. Nor does he try to save any of the villains or anyone really. He's not the hero, even though he believes he is.
It reminds me of the What If? Episode - where Doctor Strange destroys the world through his hubris. He's a powerful magician who if he gives into his worst inclinations, or flaws, he could very well be his own worst nightmare.
With Great Power, as Aunt May tells Peter, comes great responsibility. A lesson Doctor Strange has yet to learn.
2. King Richard starring Will Smith, about Serena and Venus Williams father who coached them in tennis and helped advance their careers. If it weren't for their father - they wouldn't be tennis champions.
It's one of the better biopics. And unlike most - doesn't focus on the tragedies, just the tennis, and why it happened.
It begins with Richard hunting a coach for his girls, and ends with Venus's first pro match.
The over-riding theme of this story is staying humble and not letting the fame, fortune, etc get in your head. In one sequence he forces his family to watch Cinderella twice - in order to get the message that no matter what, Cinderella stayed humble.
He sees his daughters as champions, but he wants them to put family, education, love, charity, humility, and each other first.
Will Smith is almost unrecognizable in the lead, and it is a story that touches upon racism. Which the family combats daily. The tennis world is insanely white - in the 1970s-1990s, where this takes place.
It's also a tight film - held my interest and focused on the girls finding a coach, a sponsor, and getting to the pros. That's it. I think it serves it well - bio-pics are best when focused.
The more I think about this film, the more impressed I am with it - also the more I find myself appreciating the last trio of Spiderman films over the previous ones. What this trio did differently from both the comics and the previous films - by looping them in with the broader MCU film verse and starting with Peter in high school - is create an interesting, unintentional and unrecognized villain at the center. The villain at the center of the films is who we think it is - and in truth, he's not really a villain, and is rather well-meaning actually.
A superhero series is only as good as its villains. And it works best when the villain isn't something you can kill or put in prison, but something bigger and not as easily resolved.
If the ghost of Tony Stark was the unseen and unintentional villain of Spiderman: Far From Home, along with an en absentia Nick Fury and his well-meaning, if disorganized Skrull invested Shield, then...well, guess who it is here?
Doctor Strange is the unwitting and unknown villain at the center of Spiderman: No Way Home much the same way Stark was in the first two films. The villains in each of the previous Spiderman films were created by Tony Stark - and after Stark. Spiderman by virtue of interacting with Stark or knowing him - unwittingly became their target. Both let Parker know at various points that they aren't after him - they are after Stark, he's just in the way or a pawn. Stark's hubris and tendency to be callous towards anyone who isn't perceived as bright and capable as he is - creates his own villains. When in truth, Stark's worst enemy is Stark. He means well - but more often than not his influence is rather toxic and wrecks havoc on his friends lives. By gifting the nanonite tech to Spiderman - without any explanation of what it does or entails (just that Peter will figure it out) - he endangers the world and Peter along with it - in Spiderman No Way Home. To Stark - weapons are toys, and he fails to learn the consequences of playing with them - until it's almost too late. If Stark was the poster child on how to be mindful with science and technology, and not treat it like a "toy" then Doctor Strange is the poster child in regards to magic.
Which kind of makes these Spiderman films far more interesting then the previous films - in that enemy is well not so clear cut. We like the bad guy. We're even rooting for him. We like his friendship with Spiderman. Like Peter - we perceive him as a hero, and a helper. But is he?
It reminded me a little of The Dark Knight film in that regard - in which the bad guy is more often than not the well-meaning heroes. Even Daredevil an actual vigilante makes an appearance as Peter's lawyer - because Peter is being perceived as a vigilante, when in actuality Peter's a hero, unlike Daredevil, Peter tries not to kill people (those who die in the previous films, Peter is actually trying to save.)
What's also interesting in Spiderman - is that Peter takes the blame for everything, and Strange lets him. When in reality - Strange does quite a few things colossally wrong - and his inability to take responsibility for any of it, makes Strange a kind of anti-hero in a way. He reminds me a lot of Tony Stark - with his sarcastic quips, he's devil-may-care attitude, his air of entitlement, and self-importance. Also like Stark - he doesn't take accountability for his own actions - instead he blames Spiderman/Peter for everything that went wrong. It makes the movie interesting - and Cumberbatch much like Downy Jr in Ultron, is perfect for this type of role.
Both are exceedingly charismatic and likable - even though they are ultimately responsible for everything that went wrong.
I was fascinated by Strange's character. Actually the whole film is fascinating from multiple standpoints. It reminds me a little of Spiderman: Into the Spiderverse - which is equally excellent for similar reasons.
Stephen Strange from the very beginning - is notable for his colossal hubris. He gets into the accident that injures his hand because of his hubris and inattention. Or lack of mindfulness. He's so full of himself - that he often isn't mindful of the little things. Thinking that's beneath him. He treats magic much the same way he treated surgery. Similar to Stark - he's the brightest guy in the room - and knows it, seeing little room for improvement. He's never really had to work that hard at anything. That's the problem. Also, much like Stark, he doesn't really have a family or connections - just work related ones. It's not until Stark has those connections - that Stark begins to care about someone other than himself.
In direct contrast to Peter - who doesn't see himself as the smartest guy, if anything he's the opposite. Self-deprecating to a fault. But Peter has family, connections to the world. Aunt May who as a counter point to both Stark and Strange - pushes that we take care of others, feel empathy for their situations, and "with great power comes great responsibility" - we take accountability. Both Strange and Stark have great power - more than Peter - at their disposable, and both fail to hold themselves accountable - they are blaming others for their mistakes. Much like the five villains who pop into Peter's life from other universes - they are in a way extreme versions of Stark and Strange - demented fools obsessed with power at all costs.
Doctor Octupus
Doctor Connors
Electro
Sandman
Norman Osbourn - The Green Goblin
All lost souls - brilliant scientists much like Tony Stark. Entitled. Well-meaning, like Doctor Strange. Note two are Doctors. And the one who is almost killed - is the weapons manufacturer and tech businessman - Norman Osbourn is kind of a dark take on Tony Stark. Just as Doctor Connors who is a surgeon and healer - hunting a way to make people heal faster - is a dark take on Doctor Strange - who went abroad to find a cure for his hand, and found magic instead.
They all represent how not taking accountability or responsibility for their power and own actions, destroys their lives and everyone around them.
Peter in stark contrast is humble. All three Peter Parker's are - they lack confidence. They aren't wealthy. They aren't entitled. They are all poor kids from Queens living in run-down apartments not high-rises or castles. And it's Peter's lack of confidence and uncertainty that leads him to Strange's door to ask what appears to Peter to be a simple enough solution to major problem. Everyone knows who he is - if Strange could only undo it somehow with magic. And to be fair to Peter - Tony Stark and Strange and the Avengers themselves kind of set him on that road of easy short-cuts to resolve difficult problems, screw the consequences. With Stark it was science, with Strange it is magic. And both have dire consequences that neither seem to recognize or worse, take responsibility for. Stark doesn't for his gadgets which he gives to Peter without thinking, or any instruction whatsoever or supervision. Dangerous gadgets - if placed in the wrong hands, or that can be easily corrupted (as seen with Mysterio), but Stark uses them without thought - so doesn't see this as an issue. (That's the first movie). And Strange doesn't it as an issue either when he contemplates what he sees as a simple enough spell - which he does all the time and often thoughtlessly, without worrying over the consequences. He's even warned by his associate not to do it callously, that it crosses the line.
From the beginning - a few things about Doctor Strange seem a bit off, and if we think about it - they always were off. Strange got the time stone years ago, and was elevated because of how he handled an initial battle - but even in that battle - it's clear that the line between Strange and the villain is all too thin. And Strange's actions after that - stink of hubris, he gets away with it - though, with little to no consequences. The things that happen to him - aren't his fault up to now.
1. Peter walks into the sanctum and it's like he's walked into the aftermath of a blizzard.
Peter: Whoa, did you go nuts for a party or something?
Wong: No, one of the gateways was left open because a blizzard blew through. Don't slip - we don't have insurance.
Strange: It was left open because someone forgot to do a basic spell to close it.
Wong: Which would be you.
Strange: I much have higher duties than to waste time on such a basic spell.
Wong: Really? What? I'm the socerer supreme - I'm the one with the higher responsibilities - which I have to be seeing to. You're the associate.
Peter: Wait - he's the socerer supreme now?
Strange: When I blipped out for five years - he got it on a technicality.
2. Peter asks Strange to use the time stone to go back in time - change things, so not everyone finds out who he is. But Strange can't do that. Even if he had the time stone - he doesn't think its a good idea. Considering what they did to bring everyone back...had its own set of consequences. Plus it's gone. So not possible. However, Strange can do a simple forgetting spell. Make everyone forget Peter Parker is Spiderman.
Wong: No, you don't want to do that. That could have serious consequences if mishandled. It's a dangerous spell that we don't use - it can cross into a dark territory...
Strange: Oh please, it wasn't a problem when I made you forget the Moons on Rumpor party. It's a simple spell. I don't see a problem.
Wong leaves, and Strange starts the spell, stating along the way that well, it does mean everyone everywhere will forget that Peter Parker is Spiderman. But he's stating this as he's constructing the spell. He doesn't tell Peter the consequences prior to doing the spell. Also he pulls Peter into the spell-casting ring with him.
Peter appalled - says, "wait a minute, I don't want everyone to forget who I am...MJ needs to know, so does Ned, and Aunt May, and Happy...and.."
Doctor Strange who is mid-spell by this point, because he's not really listening to Peter - he's showing off much like Stark showed off his gadgetry to Peter, says - oh okay, we'll do that, and this...
And before long Strange's spell has been altered six times, to the point that he begins to lose control of it. He's furious with Peter for tampering with his spell. He doesn't blame himself at all. He's blameless - this is all on Peter.
Strange: Sorry, had to stop the spell. You changed it six times. Possibly for the best. What did the admission's office say when you called them.
Poor Peter tells Strange that he hadn't called admissions.
Strange: you came to me, before you talked to MIT? It didn't occur to you to talk to them first? You wasted my time? And caused me to do this spell when you could have talked to them first??
Strange thinks he has contained the spell. But alas no. It's now pulling into their universe everyone who knows that Peter Parker is Spiderman.
Including some nasty villains, and the other universe's Peter Parker's.
Even when Strange comes up with a way to send them all back, and to contain them until then - he doesn't listen to Peter. Who says that they can't just send the villains back to die. There has to be another way.
And as a result, Peter tries to save the villains. But the villains can't quite let go of their power - except for Doc Oc, who was more than happy to. Aunt May gets killed in the fracas. Peter does however with the help of his friends and Peter Parker alternates manage to cure and save the villains giving them all a second chance. But in the process - Strange's spell is corrupted by Osborn, and when Strange attempts it again, he loses control.
The only way to heal the cracks in the multi-verse - is for Peter to have Strange do a forgetting spell that makes everyone in the multi-verse forget Peter.
And Strange throughout - blames Peter, as does Peter. He takes no responsibility for any of it. Nor does he try to save any of the villains or anyone really. He's not the hero, even though he believes he is.
It reminds me of the What If? Episode - where Doctor Strange destroys the world through his hubris. He's a powerful magician who if he gives into his worst inclinations, or flaws, he could very well be his own worst nightmare.
With Great Power, as Aunt May tells Peter, comes great responsibility. A lesson Doctor Strange has yet to learn.
2. King Richard starring Will Smith, about Serena and Venus Williams father who coached them in tennis and helped advance their careers. If it weren't for their father - they wouldn't be tennis champions.
It's one of the better biopics. And unlike most - doesn't focus on the tragedies, just the tennis, and why it happened.
It begins with Richard hunting a coach for his girls, and ends with Venus's first pro match.
The over-riding theme of this story is staying humble and not letting the fame, fortune, etc get in your head. In one sequence he forces his family to watch Cinderella twice - in order to get the message that no matter what, Cinderella stayed humble.
He sees his daughters as champions, but he wants them to put family, education, love, charity, humility, and each other first.
Will Smith is almost unrecognizable in the lead, and it is a story that touches upon racism. Which the family combats daily. The tennis world is insanely white - in the 1970s-1990s, where this takes place.
It's also a tight film - held my interest and focused on the girls finding a coach, a sponsor, and getting to the pros. That's it. I think it serves it well - bio-pics are best when focused.
no subject
I found the MCU version greeting Peter at the beginning... baffling. Relaxed, joking, kind of... chill? WTF? Who IS this guy? But you're right--Stephen Strange needs to be the big man in the room, the number one go-to guy, and he's kind of lost after coming back from the Snap. Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme at the moment, and you get the feeling it's not just because he was the last man standing; maybe Wong has the job because he has the humility and discipline the last guy didn't.
So Strange takes Peter's request as a favor to a friend... and maaaaybe a chance to prove he's just as awesome as he always (thought he) was.
(Still, even though I agree with your conclusions about Peter's attempts at archvillain reformation, personally, I would have sent the villains back the minute they were corralled. Way, way too risky to keep them around, and fudging with the timelines of those alternate universes could have disastrous consequences. Thought Strange had a point there...)
Anyway....
My favorite parts of the movie were anything with Doc Ock (Molina... chef's kiss) and the banter between the three Spideys. Awesome.
Let's hope that our good doctor will learn his lesson in his new movie, and be more like the Doc I've known all my life: Dedicated. Disciplined. Courageous.
And yes, still an asshole.
no subject
I'll probably re-watch it again - sometime this weekend. I loved the movie. It was just so interesting. It and Into the SpiderVerse are my favorite Spiderman flicks at the moment.
Anyhow..
I found the MCU version greeting Peter at the beginning... baffling. Relaxed, joking, kind of... chill? WTF? Who IS this guy? But you're right--Stephen Strange needs to be the big man in the room, the number one go-to guy, and he's kind of lost after coming back from the Snap. Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme at the moment, and you get the feeling it's not just because he was the last man standing; maybe Wong has the job because he has the humility and discipline the last guy didn't
I think he got a little lost after the blip. Or lost his sense of purpose. Pre-blip, he was the keeper of the time stone and the weight of that responsibility held him in check. Along with it's power. But now that it is gone - he's kind of adrift. Peter comes to him asking for him to use the Time Stone, and for a minute he forgets he no longer has it - because he tells Peter that they can't do that - do what the Avengers did to bring everyone back, because that was problematic. Then, almost as an afterthought, he looks down at his chest and says, well, it's gone now anyhow, so we can't use it. He has a look on his face of feeling almost lost without it.
I don't think Doctor Strange is quite at the point in which you adored him in the comics. He's still at the beginning of his journey. It looked like he went through it all and obtained humility in the first film - but not really. Or not entirely. Life is pretty much two steps forward and fifteen steps back. He made progress then regressed a bit - partly because he's never quite held himself accountable for certain things. With the Time Stone - he did hold himself accountable as the Keeper of the Stone - but when he lost the Stone to Thanos - literally gave it to Thanos to save Stark's life, and the world, at the sacrifice of his own, he kind of lost his bearings in a way. Because that was his journey - and he was gone. Now, he's been brought back and has to navigate this new world and he's a bit grumpy and devil-may-care about it. (Completely understandable.)
He also thinks he has a handle on his magic - he doesn't, he's really just a novice at this point - without Wong's years of training.
(I adore him by the way. I actually like Strange much better than Stark, he's more interesting. We know less about him. Also, the actor is slightly more nuanced in how plays the role than Downy Jr was.)
Still, even though I agree with your conclusions about Peter's attempts at archvillain reformation, personally, I would have sent the villains back the minute they were corralled. Way, way too risky to keep them around, and fudging with the timelines of those alternate universes could have disastrous consequences. Thought Strange had a point there...)
No, I completely agree with you. I'd have sent them all back. For the reasons you state above and for the reasons Strange states...Like Strange, I know too much about time travel. Saving or curing these guys and then sending them back to give them a second chance at life - is all well and good, except, you are screwing up their time line - and creating more verses as a result.
Strange is right - it is their fate. Fiddle with that at your own peril. It goes back to what he was trying to tell Peter about the Time Stone - that fiddling about with time has serious consequences. Damn, Aunt May - her heart may be in the right place, but her plan was stupid and short-sighted. The villains made their choices long ago, Peter really can't effectively save them now without dooming others in the process. It was inevitable that his attempts to save them only end in tragedy.
What was interesting to me - is while Strange seems aware of the consequences of playing with Time, he's oblivious to the consequences of playing with others memories - or how that too can mess up the time stream, and fiddle with fate. I think it's a question of hubris, and the fact that in reality he's not as experienced a Wizard as he thinks he is.
Note - how he wanted to fix everything before Wong got back and discovered how colossally he'd screwed up. He even loses control of the mirror verse and Spidey manages to trap him.
I really want to see Doctor Strange and the Multi-verse of Madness. (It's being directed by Sam Rami, which is interesting, and could either be a good thing or a bad thing. I listened to two biographical books by Bruce Campbell, where he discusses his pal Rami - who is a devoted comic book geek, but does have a tendency to get carried away with his films. OTOH - Rami knows the characters very well.)
Also this film made me want more of Matt Murdoch. Maybe Disney will revive the Defenders?
My favorite parts of the movie were anything with Doc Ock (Molina... chef's kiss) and the banter between the three Spideys. Awesome.
I loved the whole thing. Although the 3 Spidey's were wonderful, as were the interactions with Doc Ock. Alfred Molina, William Defoe and Benedict Cumberbatch were having a blast. God the casting on this thing was marvelous. And the dialogue was spot on. Also Holland works very well as a young Spidey.
Let's hope that our good doctor will learn his lesson in his new movie, and be more like the Doc I've known all my life: Dedicated. Disciplined. Courageous.
He's just not there yet. Most likely will be at the end of the next film. Shame you haven't seen Marvel's What If - there's an episode that concentrates on Stephen Strange - and how Strange uses the Time Stone to bring back his love. In the What If episode, instead of injuring his hand in the accident, he loses his lover. And in his attempts to bring her back - he keeps having to obtain more and more power to do so, until he basically sells his very soul and destroys his world - so he's the only one left, adrift in a prison in Space. From the trailer's to Doctor Strange and the Multi-verse of Madness - this Strange ends up coming face to face with the current MCU verse Strange, and Strange has to deal with his dark side.
no subject
Our heroes avoided an apocalyptic disaster of their own making by a millimeter (if that much). Yes, May died as a result of their actions, but it was framed as a noble death, a "she died for her principles" death, rather than, "Wow, they fucked up bad."
I also thought three fifths of the villains were a waste of time. If you can't get Thomas Haden Church and Rhys Ifans for new footage on screen, why bother with Sandman and Lizard at all? And Jamie Foxx played Electro like... Jamie Foxx. He didn't even bother with the character in ASM2.
(Jamie DID get one of my favorite lines of the movie: "Well...I figure there's gotta be a black Spider-Man out there somewhere."
He's right here in Brooklyn, Jamie.)
As I said, I loved the Spider-Banter, and I absolutely loved that Andrew-Spidey got to rescue MJ and resolve the character crisis from his own movie! Somebody at Marvel or Sony CARES. Respect.
So....a mixed bag for me. I'll do a rewatch at some point and see if I can look past some of my nitpicks.
*************
Oh, and for the Dr. Strange movie. We'll definitely see Strange Supreme (from What If?) and two OTHER variants, as well. Cumberbatch is gonna be busy.
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She felt condemning these people to die was inherently wrong - she's right, it is. And she is in the business of helping others. Strange is really no different than May - he wanted to help give Peter a second chance and did the spell.
I mean its easy from our perspective to see that this will go south in a hurry, but from theirs? How do you send someone back to die? Part of the popularity of the film is that it was about the attempt to save the villains no matter what - which is an uplifting message in these troubled times. So many superhero films are the exact opposite.
Peter feels he screwed up by doing this, but Aunt May tells him that he didn't - he tried to help.
He felt empathy for the villains. That's not wrong. It's not wrong to care. Nor is it wrong to try to give someone a second chance.
Humanity as a species isn't worth all that much, if we can't see our way to doing at least that. And I think that was the message at the heart of May's statements to Peter. She died standing up for them - and in that respect was a hero, she died saving Peter, and died standing up for her cause and her views.
That said - it's not that simple. As Strange points out as a counter-argument, which you stated so well above - there are consequences. The "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". It's kind of like the great mask/vaccine debate, should we support the rights of those who don't want to be vaxxed (for reasons) or wear masks, or does public health take precedence? The later of course, yet, it's not quite that simple - if you dig deeper, I know people who get physically ill wearing the mask, they have gastric disorders or severe asthma. Or in the case of my father - Alzheimers and can't keep it on and get confused and scared when forced to wear it. Same with the vaccine - there are people who are highly sensitive to it, and have a severe allergic reaction or are severely immune compromised. Some may be terrified.
It's never simple. That's why I loved this movie so much - it didn't make it simple. I could see and argue both sides. Both sides were morally right for their own reasons. The only true villain in it - was maybe Mysterio who framed Spiderman in the previous film. The best villains are the ones who are well justified in their views...and you can actually see their point of view.
A Counter-Argument
Sometimes, you can inject yourself into a situation with the best of intentions and ensure disaster. Whether it's because you don't truly understand the scope of the situation (the case here), or are limited by your own personal prejudices, or don't have all the facts, you can tip things over from bad to Much Worse.
We've seen this happen in the real world countless times. You can provide your own examples.
May was working on a human level of compassion. Not blaming her for that. But did she truly understand the cosmic, multiversal scope of the events surrounding her? Did she have any knowledge of Osborn's particular psychosis and how the Goblin personality was always underneath, observing
and waiting?
No. She didn't. She just saw people in pain and wanted to help.
She only wanted to help.
A counter-counter-argument:
And yet....
And yet...
When the rage disappears from Octavius' eyes and he greets Toby-Spidey as the gentle, wise man he was Before, who's to say that wasn't worth the risk?
Re: A Counter-Argument
As a result all hell breaks loose.
It's kind of set up well - with Peter's well-meaning plan to swing MJ around Manhattan on his web - where she's absolutely terrified. He's almost oblivious to it - because he's too busy showing off. There's a lot of showing off and hubris. Even May is kind of showing off - look at all the good I'm doing.
The film is not just a fluffy superhero film with great action sequences. It actually has something to say. I love it. Superhero films aren't just fluff. They can be just as deep and interesting as say an Oscar nominated picture like Power of the Dog. And they don't have to be unrelentingly grim and violent and dark - like the Dark Knight, to say something interesting.