First off I didn't mean that Faith/Xander was subversive, only that it was more of a sub/dom sex relationship than spuffy and I wasn't speaking of the scene when she chained him up but the one in "The Zeppo" when he lost his virginity while Faith wasn't a villain yet. I should have made it clearer, my bad.
As for School Hard and OFMM, of course Spike lost (frustration is a recurring theme in his journey), because otherwise there would no longer be a show called BTVS but Buffy didn't beat him...which showed that *she* didn't necessarily overcome him. I was only arguing about the relationship between those too. As he said, ashamed, in "Something Blue", it's Buffy's team that always made his plans fail not Buffy herself.
BTW I think that "Fool For Love" pointed that they could switch roles easily. In that episode Spike has been metaphorically "on the top" many times (hurting her in the Bronze, telling her a certain truth about his past, blocking her while she's weaponless by the pool table, telling her about her death wish...) but Buffy was too (thanks to her money first, then during the fight in the alley or when she said he was beneath her and made him cry) and they both has been put at a disadvantage. But the ending scene is meaningful...they end up on the same level, sitting side by side, equal! Oh I so love that episode!!!!
As for A/B...well I do disagree with your comparisons. IMO the subtext isn't hinting at a relationship between a man and a younger woman, but at a man obsessed with little girls. When Angel stared at Buffy in L.A she isn't showed at all as a woman. I don't think he even really saw her as a woman btw hence his bizarre and so-far-from-reality idea of the Spuffy sex during his hallucinations in Ats season 5.
Lolita is only 12 in Nabokov's novel and once she becomes a woman she isn't very interesting anymore. Of course the true kink might be that Lolita isn't that innocent and actually kinda manipulated the hero...Buffy isn't very manipulative with Angel though.
I think that Cordy/Connor was felt as kinky because she took care of baby Connor so there was a connotation of incest...very Oedip-like given to Angel's feeling for Cordy!
Not sure that Buffy was in control in the balcony scene...she says "don't" and she didn't choose to have that intercourse, she submitted to the seducer.
Concerning the nudity during season 6, I think it's more a matter of SMG's contract and JM's sex-appeal LOL
But "Dirty Girl" did show Spike spread as an odalisque, when Faith is going downstair. He's really the forbidden fruit in that scene, kinda like "La Maja Desnuda" and that's certainly subversive!
But I'm playing the advocate of the devil for the pleasure of arguing (and in order to avoid my marking!). Of course Buffy being The Slayer is the strong one, and yes she punched Spike a lot(well he punched back as soon as he could, in Smashed), and yes Joss wanted to put women "on the top" in his show, and yes her wild sexuality was a way to show it...it's just that reading season 6 in a sub/dom way isn't satisfying for me. But I would agree that the zipper sound in Smashed and Buffy literally taking Spike in was quite subversive, much more than the cut scene on the floor (I really don't understand American censorship).
Now I'm thinking of that scene when she left Riley in bed and was running in the night, obviously to get off on slaying baddies! Rather subversive too...
Well thanks for giving me the opportunity to discuss Buffy again. I missed that.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2005-06-26 11:44 am (UTC)First off I didn't mean that Faith/Xander was subversive, only that it was more of a sub/dom sex relationship than spuffy and I wasn't speaking of the scene when she chained him up but the one in "The Zeppo" when he lost his virginity while Faith wasn't a villain yet. I should have made it clearer, my bad.
As for School Hard and OFMM, of course Spike lost (frustration is a recurring theme in his journey), because otherwise there would no longer be a show called BTVS but Buffy didn't beat him...which showed that *she* didn't necessarily overcome him. I was only arguing about the relationship between those too. As he said, ashamed, in "Something Blue", it's Buffy's team that always made his plans fail not Buffy herself.
BTW I think that "Fool For Love" pointed that they could switch roles easily. In that episode Spike has been metaphorically "on the top" many times (hurting her in the Bronze, telling her a certain truth about his past, blocking her while she's weaponless by the pool table, telling her about her death wish...) but Buffy was too (thanks to her money first, then during the fight in the alley or when she said he was beneath her and made him cry) and they both has been put at a disadvantage. But the ending scene is meaningful...they end up on the same level, sitting side by side, equal! Oh I so love that episode!!!!
As for A/B...well I do disagree with your comparisons. IMO the subtext isn't hinting at a relationship between a man and a younger woman, but at a man obsessed with little girls. When Angel stared at Buffy in L.A she isn't showed at all as a woman. I don't think he even really saw her as a woman btw hence his bizarre and so-far-from-reality idea of the Spuffy sex during his hallucinations in Ats season 5.
Lolita is only 12 in Nabokov's novel and once she becomes a woman she isn't very interesting anymore. Of course the true kink might be that Lolita isn't that innocent and actually kinda manipulated the hero...Buffy isn't very manipulative with Angel though.
I think that Cordy/Connor was felt as kinky because she took care of baby Connor so there was a connotation of incest...very Oedip-like given to Angel's feeling for Cordy!
Not sure that Buffy was in control in the balcony scene...she says "don't" and she didn't choose to have that intercourse, she submitted to the seducer.
Concerning the nudity during season 6, I think it's more a matter of SMG's contract and JM's sex-appeal LOL
But "Dirty Girl" did show Spike spread as an odalisque, when Faith is going downstair. He's really the forbidden fruit in that scene, kinda like "La Maja Desnuda" and that's certainly subversive!
But I'm playing the advocate of the devil for the pleasure of arguing (and in order to avoid my marking!). Of course Buffy being The Slayer is the strong one, and yes she punched Spike a lot(well he punched back as soon as he could, in Smashed), and yes Joss wanted to put women "on the top" in his show, and yes her wild sexuality was a way to show it...it's just that reading season 6 in a sub/dom way isn't satisfying for me. But I would agree that the zipper sound in Smashed and Buffy literally taking Spike in was quite subversive, much more than the cut scene on the floor (I really don't understand American censorship).
Now I'm thinking of that scene when she left Riley in bed and was running in the night, obviously to get off on slaying baddies! Rather subversive too...
Well thanks for giving me the opportunity to discuss Buffy again. I missed that.
I have 5 papers left...grrrrr