but what was with the casting of these very attractive people to play unpopular nerds?
It was very much a network thing, or that's my guess? I watched The TV Set - a film about trying to get a television show on the air - a long time ago, and the most interesting bit was the commentary at the end between Judd Apatow, David Duchovny, and someone else (whose name I forget) - where Apatow goes into detail about casting for Freaks and Geeks in the 1990s. How he had to fight the network to get actual teens in the roles, specifically in the Geeks. He talked about how the network had a list of things they had to do. Whedon had similar issues - he wanted Bianca Lawson apparently as Buffy or Cordelia, and the network nixed it.
I honestly think the network tests audiences, and decides that pretty people sell a show. It saw Buffy as a show directed towards tween girls, and there should be hot guys on it.
. I am currently rewatching Veronica Mars and found it interesting how very ambivalent the romantic partners she has are (even her friends, for that matter). Of course, the show was intended to be teenage noir so it fits well, just as Buffy exists in an environment of morally corrupt characters. But then Buffy paved the way for Veronica.
Pondering whether I agree.
Buffy wasn't really noir to start with though, like Veronica Mars? Otherwise, yes, Buffy paved the way for it. And the writer in a lot of ways pays homage to Whedon and Buffy throughout, and Veronica Mars is quippy and snarky just like Buffy.
That said? Buffy definitely gets more noir as it goes. The Pack in S1, along with Out of Sight Out of Mind screams noir. And Whedon definitely started going there, or rather Greenwalt prodded him in that direction as did the other writers with Spike, Ethan Raine, Giles, Dru, Jenny Carpenter, and Angel. There are also episodes in Buffy that I would definitely describe as horror/noir. Heck both Angel and Spike fit the noir romantic hero trope.
I honestly think most of Whedon's writing fell into horror/noir which may be the reason for such mixed reactions to it. Noir is kind of controversial? And it explores a lot of controversial themes?
That's an interesting thought about how the romantic hero was never played to become a turncoat. You're right that what was much more common was a guy who is supposed to be a bad guy who is later revealed to be misunderstood or the victim of someone's vendetta against him, so he becomes "good" and a romantic hero.
Yeah, I think I've seen the romantic hero flip a few times - but usually its in comics or fairy tales, and it's usually because of a magic spell or possession or he's cursed (aka Beauty and the Beast trope) - and doesn't last long. Angel was interesting because he flips when the "Curse" is lifted. He's only good (well good is a relative term here) when the curse is intact. Whedon completely subverted that trope. They have to curse him to make him ...not evil.
Spike's character is more common. That's done a lot. The Rogue with the heart of Gold. It's basically the Beauty and the Beast Trope. They did subvert it in a few ways, and made it noirish, but it's a common trope.
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branchandroot
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Date: 2025-04-23 10:14 pm (UTC)It was very much a network thing, or that's my guess? I watched The TV Set - a film about trying to get a television show on the air - a long time ago, and the most interesting bit was the commentary at the end between Judd Apatow, David Duchovny, and someone else (whose name I forget) - where Apatow goes into detail about casting for Freaks and Geeks in the 1990s. How he had to fight the network to get actual teens in the roles, specifically in the Geeks. He talked about how the network had a list of things they had to do. Whedon had similar issues - he wanted Bianca Lawson apparently as Buffy or Cordelia, and the network nixed it.
I honestly think the network tests audiences, and decides that pretty people sell a show. It saw Buffy as a show directed towards tween girls, and there should be hot guys on it.
. I am currently rewatching Veronica Mars and found it interesting how very ambivalent the romantic partners she has are (even her friends, for that matter). Of course, the show was intended to be teenage noir so it fits well, just as Buffy exists in an environment of morally corrupt characters. But then Buffy paved the way for Veronica.
Pondering whether I agree.
Buffy wasn't really noir to start with though, like Veronica Mars? Otherwise, yes, Buffy paved the way for it. And the writer in a lot of ways pays homage to Whedon and Buffy throughout, and Veronica Mars is quippy and snarky just like Buffy.
That said? Buffy definitely gets more noir as it goes. The Pack in S1, along with Out of Sight Out of Mind screams noir. And Whedon definitely started going there, or rather Greenwalt prodded him in that direction as did the other writers with Spike, Ethan Raine, Giles, Dru, Jenny Carpenter, and Angel. There are also episodes in Buffy that I would definitely describe as horror/noir. Heck both Angel and Spike fit the noir romantic hero trope.
I honestly think most of Whedon's writing fell into horror/noir which may be the reason for such mixed reactions to it. Noir is kind of controversial? And it explores a lot of controversial themes?
That's an interesting thought about how the romantic hero was never played to become a turncoat. You're right that what was much more common was a guy who is supposed to be a bad guy who is later revealed to be misunderstood or the victim of someone's vendetta against him, so he becomes "good" and a romantic hero.
Yeah, I think I've seen the romantic hero flip a few times - but usually its in comics or fairy tales, and it's usually because of a magic spell or possession or he's cursed (aka Beauty and the Beast trope) - and doesn't last long. Angel was interesting because he flips when the "Curse" is lifted. He's only good (well good is a relative term here) when the curse is intact. Whedon completely subverted that trope. They have to curse him to make him ...not evil.
Spike's character is more common. That's done a lot. The Rogue with the heart of Gold. It's basically the Beauty and the Beast Trope. They did subvert it in a few ways, and made it noirish, but it's a common trope.