As a point of clarification: did Lynch ever do anything with the ambiguity of whether Wes was a free agent or manipulated by W&H? Angel wondered and then he seems to have stopped wondering.
Actually he does, but not through Angel, exactly. Wes has a very brief scene - I can't remember where - in which he pretty much gets across that he can find loopholes. They want him to stop Angel from dying. Which he keeps going against in all sorts of snide little ways. Wes - is an interesting character, a contradiction in terms. He's the "headboy" but he never follows the rules. He's in love with rules and regulations, but he keeps finding ways around them. Reminds me a lot of lawyers actually. ;-) (I went to law school, so it's sort an inside joke).
I know what you wanted from Wes' storyline - but the limitations of the medium made it almost impossible. They would have had to do a mini-series just featuring Wes. I think if we had an Angel S6 - you would have gotten what you wanted or something a lot closer to it - because Whedon most likely would have done a couple of episodes focusing solely on Wes and Illyria, much as he did in S5. Here, we get one issue that sort of does, illustrated by Nick Runge. I can't remember which one it is - but it takes place shortly after the defeat the Lords and high-tail it to the Hyperion.
But if Angel is incapable of taking responsibility for his own actions, it is because he has "friends" like Wesley who are willing to let him.
I don't think that's true. He does take responsibility in a way. And he does pay for it. He just, has a tendency to blame a lot of things on his alter-ego. But I'd say he took responsibility for the mind-wipe and joining WRH. Almost too much responsibility. Remember - we really have no way of knowing for certain if they would have joined without the mindwipe. They were offered prior to it. And Gunn definitely said yes, as did Fred. Wes - was the only one on the fence, but that's only because of his relationship with Lilah and how much he knew about WRH that the others, excluding Angel, did not. Also, it's never been clear how much the mindwipe took away of their memories and what it replaced them with. We gets hints here and there, but nothing definite. You're Welcome - touches on the consequences, as does Origin, and Hole in the World.
(How much courage does it take these days to do real, full, they all die in the end because of their tragic flaws tragedy? I can see why they blinked. Or maybe Whedon is telling us that the show really ended at NFA, and for people who don't get that or don't want that here's this other story. Angel lite as it were. Made safe for our oh-so-delicate sensibilities.)
I don't think it's about courage, so much as about - do I have more story I want to tell. Also remember they are making money off of this - it's not for their entertainment. So, you know, job.
That said, the story isn't over yet. In Fray - it is made clear that Buffy closes off all the demons, including vampires into another dimension. Some vampires leak through, but they are weaker versions or lurks and it's only many many years later. This means that at some point Whedon plans on either killing all the characters in Angel who aren't human, or making them human, or creating a loop-hole.
At any rate, I would not be the least surprised if he killed off Buffy, Angel, Spike - etc. He has before, after all. Granted they came back to life. But there's nothing to keep from doing it again. Whedon does not shy away from killing beloved characters - if they further his plot and story themes.
Lynch won't do it unless Whedon let's him. Nor will anyone else writing Angel - if it is meant to be part of Whedon's Buffy comic verse. And IDW won't let them do it on their own.
I loved the ending of NFA, because I read it as everyone dies or is going out to die, sort of a Wild Bunch ending. But, I also like the story continuing.
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branchandroot
Re: Continued...Connor
Date: 2009-01-27 02:23 am (UTC)Actually he does, but not through Angel, exactly. Wes has a very brief scene - I can't remember where - in which he pretty much gets across that he can find loopholes. They want him to stop Angel from dying.
Which he keeps going against in all sorts of snide little ways. Wes - is an interesting character, a contradiction in terms. He's the "headboy" but he never follows the rules. He's in love with rules and regulations, but he keeps finding ways around them. Reminds me a lot of lawyers actually. ;-) (I went to law school, so it's sort an inside joke).
I know what you wanted from Wes' storyline - but the limitations of the medium made it almost impossible. They would have had to do a mini-series just featuring Wes. I think if we had an Angel S6 - you would have gotten what you wanted or something a lot closer to it - because Whedon most likely would have done a couple of episodes focusing solely on Wes and Illyria, much as he did in S5. Here, we get one issue that sort of does, illustrated by Nick Runge. I can't remember which one it is - but it takes place shortly after the defeat the Lords and high-tail it to the Hyperion.
But if Angel is incapable of taking responsibility for his own actions, it is because he has "friends" like Wesley who are willing to let him.
I don't think that's true. He does take responsibility in a way. And he does pay for it. He just, has a tendency to blame a lot of things on his alter-ego.
But I'd say he took responsibility for the mind-wipe and joining WRH. Almost too much responsibility. Remember - we really have no way of knowing for certain if they would have joined without the mindwipe.
They were offered prior to it. And Gunn definitely said yes, as did Fred. Wes - was the only one on the fence, but that's only because of his relationship with Lilah and how much he knew about WRH that the others, excluding Angel, did not. Also, it's never been clear how much the mindwipe took away of their memories and what it replaced them with. We gets hints here and there, but nothing definite. You're Welcome - touches on the consequences, as does Origin, and Hole in the World.
(How much courage does it take these days to do real, full, they all die in the end because of their tragic flaws tragedy? I can see why they blinked. Or maybe Whedon is telling us that the show really ended at NFA, and for people who don't get that or don't want that here's this other story. Angel lite as it were. Made safe for our oh-so-delicate sensibilities.)
I don't think it's about courage, so much as about - do I have more story I want to tell. Also remember they are making money off of this - it's not for their entertainment. So, you know, job.
That said, the story isn't over yet. In Fray - it is made clear that Buffy closes off all the demons, including vampires into another dimension. Some vampires leak through, but they are weaker versions or lurks and it's only many many years later. This means that at some point Whedon plans on either killing all the characters in Angel who aren't human, or making them human, or creating a loop-hole.
At any rate, I would not be the least surprised if he killed off Buffy, Angel, Spike - etc. He has before, after all. Granted they came back to life. But there's nothing to keep from doing it again. Whedon does not shy away from killing beloved characters - if they further his plot and story themes.
Lynch won't do it unless Whedon let's him. Nor will anyone else writing Angel - if it is meant to be part of Whedon's Buffy comic verse. And IDW won't let them do it on their own.
I loved the ending of NFA, because I read it as everyone dies or is going out to die, sort of a Wild Bunch ending. But, I also like the story continuing.