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More Thoughts on Twilight...
Tempting to do a Buffy poll, but don't worry, will restrain myself. My polls have a tendency to get comments such as : you did this all wrong. Why didn't you put such and such? Where is this option? (I have no idea why I get these responses. No one else appears too, and they make the same mistakes.)
Been having rather fascinating discussions regarding the comics...but have mixed feelings regarding them. I find myself agreeing with people with conflicting views. Which I guess makes my thoughts feel a bit dishonest? I want to like the comics, but...they bug me. Thought about doing a meta about Buffy's trust issues (which I think is a major theme), decided not to. Because, mixed feelings.
Dollhouse more or less gave me my aha moment on the whole Twilight arc, which I think is basically if you get right down to it about a betrayal of trust. Although, I probably should have figured it out after reading Fray. Ukron, Fray's demon advisor/watcher (think Giles combined with Angel sans the sex which I doubt would have been possible with Ukron anyhow not to mention slightly squicky (not that that would stop Whedon, impossibility however..definitely) - anyhow, Ukron teaches Fray, calls her to be a slayer, sets up her up to fight him, sets her up to fight his war for him or something to that effect, she discovers his betrayal is completely heartbroken, and kills him.
I think, I may be wrong about this - would have to go back and check - ah, found it:
Melaka has taken in a girl from the streets who looks up to her like a hero, named Loo, who she trusted Ukron not to hurt. Melaka wasn't really being a slayer, she wasn't working it.
She wasn't playing the game that the powers wanted, so Ukron thought she needed a little push.
Melaka: I work it you were twitchy. I wasn't looking a winner. Your creepity masters sent you to bring me to battle and you thought I wasn't gonna fight. Thought I needed a push. So you sanpped a Five Year Old's neck, 'cause hey, you're a demon right? What's one small human life, we got a WAR coming! Am I right?
Ukron: We would have lost.
Melaka: Not good enough. (she drowns him, because she figures out his weakness is water, he can't swim). (Afterwards...she thinks to herself, he was a good teacher. Even a friend. For a Friend I make it quick).
Now regarding how Fray's world came to be:
It was some hundreds of years ago, in the twenty-first century. What we know is this -- there was a battle. A slayer, possibly with some mystical allies, faced an apocalyptic army of demons. And when it was done...they were all gone. All demons. All magicks, banished from this earthly dimension.
(In the art we see a girl in silhouette with a stake fighting demons, none we recognize, then disappearing with a tentacle into another dimension.)
I do not know if she lived. But, the demons being gone, she was the last to be called. The line continued. There were girls with power, but they were never called, never trained, which may be why you have no memories of your heritage. The Council of Watchers fell to ruin, held together ony by fanatics and fools, those that believed the demons would return....
So...this is the world that Twilight wishes to bring about. The world Buffy has seen.
A world that does not remember any slayer but her. No Faith. None of the others.
It reminds me a lot of Dollhouse, actually, where we have a big bad named Rossum Corp (Twilight Org), that wants to bring about an apocalypse to stave off an apocalypse.
It's also Angel's MO in Angel the Series - where he brings about Hell LA to stave off WRH's vision.
And in an odd way it is a bit of an parable on WAR. We are fighting two wars in the hopes of combatting terrorism, when in fact we are merely making things worse. (Depending on your pov).
Fits with BSG - which in of itself was an anti-war drama.
I don't believe Spike is working with Twangel, because I can't see him a) doing it quietly,
b) hanging in the background, c) not laughing at Twangel and making his life a living hell.
and d) I can't see Twangel putting up with him. Granted they got along in S5 ATS - but that was a different situation and you can't really compare being forced to let Fred die in order to prevent over a million people going through the achingly painful death Fred is going through to well attacking a bunch of people doing zen meditation in Tibet. Also, if I recall, Spike was not happy about old Angel killing Drogyn. Granted he went along with killing the members of the Black Thorn - but who wouldn't? Evil. As for Damage? I don't think he was condeming "slayers" plural or saying Dana was irredeemable, so much as well, let's face it the gal chopped off his arms, how would you react? I honestly think he was talking about himself and Angel, and telling Angel that they are monsters, and look at what we wrought.
This is the consequence of our actions. Buffy, gave her power to fight the nightmares. They just gave her nightmares. And for that reason, I don't think Dana's story in Damage was about the spell being a bad idea. The reason, Andrew and the slayers took Dana - was leaving her with the monsters who were responsible for creating people like Dana was not a good idea. It's
a commentary on who Angel and Spike are, not what a slayer is. They "damaged" Dana, they can't, no matter how often or much they atone, ever undo that damage. This is what Spike is telling Angel. You can't change what you did. You can't undo it. Anymore than we can go back and be innocent again. (that's how I read it anyhow and from what I've read of commentary and interviews, how the writers did). The other reason I don't think Spike is working with Twangel - is he died, sacrificed himself, for that spell, for what happened in Chosen to happen. He was part of it. He encouraged her to do it. Supported her even. Having Spike be Twilight or work with Twilight sort of goes counter to that. Sure you can argue he called her the "one" in chosen. But in the context of the speech - it is clear he does not mean the "one" in the sense of sole slayer, but rather in the sense of the one who has the power to change things, the leader. Think of the context of the speech and why he gives it. She has just said why she feels she's not worthy to lead, that she's no good, too hard, blah, blah, blah - and he is trying to tell her that this is simply not true. She is the one to lead.
She is amazing. That she can get it back. That they need her! He needs her! She's inspiring.
The speech is basically a pep talk. It's not - oh, you are the "ONE" slayer in the world, the Chosen one - that's Giles and Angel's speech. His speech is very different. His speech is that you can do this, you can fight Caleb. They were right to follow you. It has to be read in context.
So, no, it doesn't work for me that Spike is working with Twilight or is Twilight. Granted I'm biased. But it still does not work logically. I can see Angel being Twilight for a lot of reasons - he was not part or privey to the Chosen spell.
He has issues with pride and hubris. And he believes that he knows more than Buffy - which was shown when he showed up in Sunnydale in End of Days, and tried to wedge his way into her battle, without being asked, and gave her all this cryptic info from a less than reliable source. That's Angel. Angel reminds me a great deal of Fray's Ukron and a character in Dollhouse. Whedon goes over the same pathways.
Nor does it work for me that Twangel is a hero. Although I guess you could tweak it.
I can see Spike as a prisoner of Twilight - that would explain his absence. But that's about it.
Okay I didn't sleep well last night...so I'm watching telly then bed. Really looking forward to Caprica this year - Marsters roll looks amazing, and I love the issues they are exploring -very topical. With any luck Espenson will do a better job here than she did with the comics, I'm thinking that's a good bet, since Moore is a better plotter than Joss Whedon is.
Been having rather fascinating discussions regarding the comics...but have mixed feelings regarding them. I find myself agreeing with people with conflicting views. Which I guess makes my thoughts feel a bit dishonest? I want to like the comics, but...they bug me. Thought about doing a meta about Buffy's trust issues (which I think is a major theme), decided not to. Because, mixed feelings.
Dollhouse more or less gave me my aha moment on the whole Twilight arc, which I think is basically if you get right down to it about a betrayal of trust. Although, I probably should have figured it out after reading Fray. Ukron, Fray's demon advisor/watcher (think Giles combined with Angel sans the sex which I doubt would have been possible with Ukron anyhow not to mention slightly squicky (not that that would stop Whedon, impossibility however..definitely) - anyhow, Ukron teaches Fray, calls her to be a slayer, sets up her up to fight him, sets her up to fight his war for him or something to that effect, she discovers his betrayal is completely heartbroken, and kills him.
I think, I may be wrong about this - would have to go back and check - ah, found it:
Melaka has taken in a girl from the streets who looks up to her like a hero, named Loo, who she trusted Ukron not to hurt. Melaka wasn't really being a slayer, she wasn't working it.
She wasn't playing the game that the powers wanted, so Ukron thought she needed a little push.
Melaka: I work it you were twitchy. I wasn't looking a winner. Your creepity masters sent you to bring me to battle and you thought I wasn't gonna fight. Thought I needed a push. So you sanpped a Five Year Old's neck, 'cause hey, you're a demon right? What's one small human life, we got a WAR coming! Am I right?
Ukron: We would have lost.
Melaka: Not good enough. (she drowns him, because she figures out his weakness is water, he can't swim). (Afterwards...she thinks to herself, he was a good teacher. Even a friend. For a Friend I make it quick).
Now regarding how Fray's world came to be:
It was some hundreds of years ago, in the twenty-first century. What we know is this -- there was a battle. A slayer, possibly with some mystical allies, faced an apocalyptic army of demons. And when it was done...they were all gone. All demons. All magicks, banished from this earthly dimension.
(In the art we see a girl in silhouette with a stake fighting demons, none we recognize, then disappearing with a tentacle into another dimension.)
I do not know if she lived. But, the demons being gone, she was the last to be called. The line continued. There were girls with power, but they were never called, never trained, which may be why you have no memories of your heritage. The Council of Watchers fell to ruin, held together ony by fanatics and fools, those that believed the demons would return....
So...this is the world that Twilight wishes to bring about. The world Buffy has seen.
A world that does not remember any slayer but her. No Faith. None of the others.
It reminds me a lot of Dollhouse, actually, where we have a big bad named Rossum Corp (Twilight Org), that wants to bring about an apocalypse to stave off an apocalypse.
It's also Angel's MO in Angel the Series - where he brings about Hell LA to stave off WRH's vision.
And in an odd way it is a bit of an parable on WAR. We are fighting two wars in the hopes of combatting terrorism, when in fact we are merely making things worse. (Depending on your pov).
Fits with BSG - which in of itself was an anti-war drama.
I don't believe Spike is working with Twangel, because I can't see him a) doing it quietly,
b) hanging in the background, c) not laughing at Twangel and making his life a living hell.
and d) I can't see Twangel putting up with him. Granted they got along in S5 ATS - but that was a different situation and you can't really compare being forced to let Fred die in order to prevent over a million people going through the achingly painful death Fred is going through to well attacking a bunch of people doing zen meditation in Tibet. Also, if I recall, Spike was not happy about old Angel killing Drogyn. Granted he went along with killing the members of the Black Thorn - but who wouldn't? Evil. As for Damage? I don't think he was condeming "slayers" plural or saying Dana was irredeemable, so much as well, let's face it the gal chopped off his arms, how would you react? I honestly think he was talking about himself and Angel, and telling Angel that they are monsters, and look at what we wrought.
This is the consequence of our actions. Buffy, gave her power to fight the nightmares. They just gave her nightmares. And for that reason, I don't think Dana's story in Damage was about the spell being a bad idea. The reason, Andrew and the slayers took Dana - was leaving her with the monsters who were responsible for creating people like Dana was not a good idea. It's
a commentary on who Angel and Spike are, not what a slayer is. They "damaged" Dana, they can't, no matter how often or much they atone, ever undo that damage. This is what Spike is telling Angel. You can't change what you did. You can't undo it. Anymore than we can go back and be innocent again. (that's how I read it anyhow and from what I've read of commentary and interviews, how the writers did). The other reason I don't think Spike is working with Twangel - is he died, sacrificed himself, for that spell, for what happened in Chosen to happen. He was part of it. He encouraged her to do it. Supported her even. Having Spike be Twilight or work with Twilight sort of goes counter to that. Sure you can argue he called her the "one" in chosen. But in the context of the speech - it is clear he does not mean the "one" in the sense of sole slayer, but rather in the sense of the one who has the power to change things, the leader. Think of the context of the speech and why he gives it. She has just said why she feels she's not worthy to lead, that she's no good, too hard, blah, blah, blah - and he is trying to tell her that this is simply not true. She is the one to lead.
She is amazing. That she can get it back. That they need her! He needs her! She's inspiring.
The speech is basically a pep talk. It's not - oh, you are the "ONE" slayer in the world, the Chosen one - that's Giles and Angel's speech. His speech is very different. His speech is that you can do this, you can fight Caleb. They were right to follow you. It has to be read in context.
So, no, it doesn't work for me that Spike is working with Twilight or is Twilight. Granted I'm biased. But it still does not work logically. I can see Angel being Twilight for a lot of reasons - he was not part or privey to the Chosen spell.
He has issues with pride and hubris. And he believes that he knows more than Buffy - which was shown when he showed up in Sunnydale in End of Days, and tried to wedge his way into her battle, without being asked, and gave her all this cryptic info from a less than reliable source. That's Angel. Angel reminds me a great deal of Fray's Ukron and a character in Dollhouse. Whedon goes over the same pathways.
Nor does it work for me that Twangel is a hero. Although I guess you could tweak it.
I can see Spike as a prisoner of Twilight - that would explain his absence. But that's about it.
Okay I didn't sleep well last night...so I'm watching telly then bed. Really looking forward to Caprica this year - Marsters roll looks amazing, and I love the issues they are exploring -very topical. With any luck Espenson will do a better job here than she did with the comics, I'm thinking that's a good bet, since Moore is a better plotter than Joss Whedon is.
no subject
Maybe it's something that only irks me, but I dislike the feeling that because I like Spike, my bias means I'm unable to think logically on the matter. It's just something I've encountered recently and your disclaimer reminded of it. Like we have to defend our right to a sound mind.
Anyways, I particularly liked reading how different Spike means "the One" as compared to Giles and Angel.
no subject
It does not just irk you, trust me. It bugs me as well. I have to restrain myself from blasting people ;-) Just because you like a character - does not mean that you can't analyze the story or its arc. I know Spike fans who think he could be working with Twilight, and I know Spike fans who think that he isn't important to Buffy or that she can't see the difference or he isn't relevant to her in Whedon's eyes. I disagree. Because what I've read from the writer and others, states the opposite. The writer has blatantly stated more than once, and somewhat irritably that she loves Spike and that Spike is incredibly important.
Anyways, I particularly liked reading how different Spike means "the One" as compared to Giles and Angel.
Thanks.
The speech is interesting. It repeats certain aspects of Riley's speech in As You Were, and is stated for some of the same reasons - a pep talk. But it is also Spike telling Buffy that she is important, that she is "different" than any other slayer, any other "woman", any other "human", anyone he's known, because she is able to see past the boundaries between good and evil, chaos and order, she can see past all of that...and bring in the light.
The First says the "ONE" but it means - the only slayer. The only one with the power.
Spike's speech and the Guardian's is a direct contrast to the First. That's the point.
I think there's another huge distinction people are forgetting about Angel and Spike. Spike is motivated by women, he loves women with power. He seeks them out. He sought out Joyce. He is matriarchy - while Angel is patriachry. Spike followed Dru, she was his raison d'etre, not Angelus. Even in Angel's series - he talks about Dru as his destiny. Then he puts Fred/Illyria first. He only works with Angel - because of Fred. It's Fred who brings him in.
These are important distinctions that they writer spent a lot of time on. If he drops them now...it sort of makes the story feel OCC.
no subject
But yeah, there's something also distinct about Spike being more sympathetic to women. That and his being a sort of queer figure.
no subject
Word.
no subject
(I have no idea why I get these responses. No one else appears too, and they make the same mistakes.)
I do. Quite a bit. Many, many comments about missing an option or phrasing something poorly or including something that somehow shouldn't have been included.
So, you're not alone! :)
no subject
Ghod polls are hard!
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I try not to get carried away with it, and that's why I remind myself that in fact Spike did NOT stand up to Angel (even when he noticed there was a problem on the Drogyn front). In AtF (which could tragically turn out to tell us stuff about the characters) Spike is the one who still has training wheels on the hero thing. He still needs to take his cues from Angel, however much he might snark about it. So I've defensively created room for Spike to be following around Twangel like the snarky Angel-wannabe that so many take him for.
I want my biases to be right and not my fears, of course.
no subject
I don't really think it's either of your hopes or your fears to be honest. Both seem a bit extreme to me. ;-) Spike's either the better vamp and therefore Buffy's one true luv (something seems off there) or he's a villain or Angel's sidekick (again off). I'm thinking or rather hoping there has to be a third option out there somewhere...don't know what it is, but it is out there. Or so I hope.
Then again, we may find out that the whole Twilight as big bad was a huge mislead, and he's actually a good guy, the bad guy is really Giles. ;-)
no subject
Give me a day or so to get over it.
no subject
That bad, eh?
Oh well, if it makes you feel any better - while I was vainly searching for an inaccessible quote this weekend, I stumbled upon numerous and contradictory interviews from Jeanty, Allie, and Whedon. All of which lead me to believe these guys are talking out of their asses when it comes to promoting the comics.
One interview stated - "oh we'll never use Angel more than sparingly, he won't factor big time in this arc, because you know, that would interfer with IDW". (LOL!)
Silly me, I believed them. No more.
Another thing that stood out: Whedon states that his older brothers used to spoil him all the time on the endings of movies and tv shows, and how much it used to piss him off. And that the most enjoyable aspect of a show or story to him was that shock-value moment or twist that he did not see coming - the surprise! He loves stories with a huge surprise. So he goes out of his way to try and make that happen for his audience/readers.
Which leads me to believe - that anything these guys state is meant to mislead.
My difficulty with this view - is in some respects, spoilers can get people to keep reading - it means, damn, this boring part will end soon and there's good stuff ahead. You can't make people wait four years for a huge jaw-dropping moment...they'll get bored.
no subject
I do take this things too much to heart, I know, but things have been so stressy lately that this trivial stuff seems to hit me even harder. Some sort of displacement thing probably.
My difficulty with this view - is in some respects, spoilers can get people to keep reading - it means, damn, this boring part will end soon and there's good stuff ahead. You can't make people wait four years for a huge jaw-dropping moment...they'll get bored.
I agree, and I'm not so keen on big surprise moments myself. At least, I don't think they should be the be-all and end-all of a story, which is how the Twilight reveal seems to have been conceived.
That said, there was a pretty good shock reveal at the very end of last night's episode of Being Human.
no subject
Oh I do the same thing. You can always tell if I'm really upset about or worried over something else, by how I react to the trivial stuff online.
It's a way of letting off steam or getting rid of stress without focusing on the source of the stress - which in some cases can be rather more crippling.
I agree, and I'm not so keen on big surprise moments myself. At least, I don't think they should be the be-all and end-all of a story, which is how the Twilight reveal seems to have been conceived
It's funny, I have no desire whatsoever to read spoilers for Caprica (except casting spoilers which are different), Dollhouse, Lost, Being Human, but for serials like Buffy - I want to know what he's doing ahead of time.
I think it's a combination of factors...often when I'm reading a book, I'll find myself irritated or bored and skip ahead to see if the book gets better or if it gets worse. If it gets worse? I dump it. No need to waste more time. If it gets better? I'll hang in there.
If the book is thrilling me and I'm not bored, I feel no need to read ahead. If it is great, but I don't trust the writer to do what I want him to do and think there is a really good possibility he/she/it is going to ruine the story and the characters in such I way I'm going to want to throw assorted meat and vegetables at him - then I'm hunting those spoilers like crazy.
That said, I won't hunt spoilers for stories that I don't care that much about the characters and just find the story and surprises interesting - a la Dollhouse. Spoilers for Dollhouse would ruine it for me. Because that's really the only reason I'm watching for the story, the characters I'm rather ambivalent on.
While with Buffy, I fell in love with the characters and their arcs on the series - but I don't trust the writers to tell me a good story about them, even though I want to. (Not sure that makes sense.)
At any rate- I sort of want to tell Whedon, I'm willing to be surprised, as long as I can trust you to surprise me in a way that loathing. ;-)
no subject
I've only been like that since rumours of the AR began to leak onto the 'net, which was a long, long time before SR aired. I remember getting chills down my spine and thinking, Surely, they wouldn't do that, would they? Don't they realise what it'll do to the character of Spike?
Since then, I just don't trust Joss with him.
no subject
I was spoiled for the episodes after Innocence, most of S3, a good portion of S5, and most of S6 and S7.
LOL!
no subject
Spike has had relatively little to say about the Slayer spell and most of it seems to me to be ambivalent or uninterested. He tells Buffy she’s the one most obviously in the romantic sense of her being the one for him. He’s never shown much interest in the others. They’re inevitable casualties or clomping teenage girly feet. He never comments on the activation plan and seems to be solely focused on what the amulet is going to do (apart from make him look like Liz Taylor). Spike’s hierarchical, he’s attracted to powerful women, (and men in Angel’s case) doesn’t have much time for the underlings. I’d agree he takes women more seriously than men but then so does Warren. That attraction has a love/hate component to it. Mostly love post soul and Slayer killing career but love and hate activate common brain circuits. He says Dana is “one of us, she’s a monster” and in AtS he’s accepted Angel’s point that “us” are going to hell whatever they do. In S8 I doubt he knows who Twilight is (given the lengths Angel has gone to conceal his identity) and may not know what Twilight is doing. There’s enough going on in the world for raids on Slayer bases in far away countries not to be general knowledge in LA or wherever Spike is. If he did know I’m sure he would have something to say but he may be a prisoner of ignorance rather than a literal one.
no subject