And yet another kitchen sink post...books, comics, tv..and kindle

[shadowkat]

1. Amazon Kindle and why the printed book is here to stay....I've come to the conclusion that the Amazon Kindle works better for online content such as fanfic, and reviews, and word files converted to plain text - then for books per se. I may be wrong about this. We shall see. After twenty minutes with amazon.com kindle support - I finally got Black Magic Sanction delivered to my kindle. The mix-up was due to a computer error - apparently there was an error in the date - the one I bought was due to be delivered to my kindle in 2029. (yeah right). Computers are infallible and frustrating creations. The other problem I'm having - is amazon's computers have decided to create two accounts for me - one for my kindle and one for everyone else. They don't recognize each other and refuse to be combined. And I have two different last names. And now two passwords. Ugga Bugga. I told the customer service rep that I could basically get any content on my kindle but Amazon, which sort of foiled the purpose of the thing. He laughed. Now that I have it - I sort of miss the hard-cover, with the pretty cover and
the page numbers. Amazon does not have page numbers - just percentage...to tell you how far you are. Also you can't skip ahead as easily. No flipping to the end to see what happens. Dang it.

The book is the newest Kim Harrison novel about Rachel Morgan - a kickass witch who has teamed up with a kickass female living vampire to run a private investigation firm. She's tough, savvy, and vulnerable. It's a female noir mystery paranormal series with a female heroine.

2. Struck out in regards to Changes by Jim Butcher - which I'd also ordered from Amazon for my kindle but Amazon and Penguine are sniping over prices. (Amazon was selling the thing for $9 while Penguine had priced it at $25. This is a side-effect of the price-guageing war going on between Amazon and Walmart - which Stephen King recently reported on in EW. In which hard cover best-sellers are being sold at $8-9 or more than 75% off market price. Note - publishers make their money off best-sellers. They need that money to buy and sell lesser known works. Can't say I blame Penguine for being pissed. But I really hope they pulled the books from Wallmart - because fair is fair.) Anyhow - I went to Target to hunt it down after work today, but to no avail. It's not there. I gave up. Waste of trip. Will have to buy at Barnes & Noble after church and small group on Sunday.

It's pathetic - I know. But I only look forward to and enjoy two published books each year - Rachel Morgan and Harry Dresden. Unlike most of these types of books - the characters push the plot, are engaging, and the story gets better with each novel, as well as more complex. (I wish I could say the same of Janet Evanovich and Patricia Cornwell - who got repetitive and paint by numbers by the fifth or sixth novel. Some writers get better as they go, others get lazy and sit on their laurels. The ones who get lazy and sit on their laurels, often achieved success too quickly and got big-headed or they just got lazy. I have no patience for lazy professional writers.

3. Off to watch Lost. Although have remarkably low expectations. The last few episodes have been lacklustre at best. But - it does feature Desmond - which means we might get an explanation of the Sideways verse finally. Lost seems to be more interested in chasing its own tale lately then actually providing answers. Considering there's only 6 episodes left, I wish they'd get on with it, and stop revisiting things I already know. Show me what I don't know.

4. Before I do watch Lost...quick question for those still reading or who have recently given up on the Buffy Comics: Do you think the Buffy Comics jumped the shark? And if so, why or if not, why not??? I'm actually more interested in the why not's, to be honest. Because it really looks like the comics jumped the shark in Retreat and kept on going...to me. Sure I can see the themes and big picture stuff as easily as the next person, but I don't care about that stuff.And to be honest? Do you guys care about it? Does anyone outside of the writer? Actually that's an interesting question in of itself - do you care more about the characters and story, or do you care about the message/theme? And what will make you stop reading - a message that you find offensive/enrages you or something regarding the characters that feels OCC or doesn't work or that they aren't the characters you like or you start to despise them? OR are you like me and it is a bit of both - but really, the characters...if the characters don't work, if they no longer work for you or fit how you perceive them...do you stop reading or watching? What signifies "jump the shark" in your opinion? What does that term mean for you? And does it apply to the Buffy comics??

[ETA: this is one of those situations in which the comments are far more interesting than the actual post. And the majority of the comments interestingly enough all agree on one thing - the posters dislike the term 'jump the shark' or don't believe it applies, regardless of whether or not they got fed up with the comics..]

Comments

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm so bored with LOST, I'm here replying to you while keeping but half an eye on the show. Oh, the drove into the water. OK.

The comics lost me in Retreat, in the sense that I lost whatever fragile handle I had on what Buffy was up to or what her situation actually was. Lots of telling and not showing, and I lost hope that it was going to add up independently of how the telling was going to go -- but that wasn't going to grip me if the telling didn't equal what I thought I was being shown.

Then we get Buffy flying, and macking on Angel. Okey dokey.

But I'm not willing to call the shark jumped. For some reason I'm set on giving Joss the full 40 before making a definitive call. Being a fan is pretty much miserable right now, though. And tonight is the first time I'm really sure it's going to be painful to read the issue coming out tomorrow.

A while back you asked me about my dissertation, and I didn't reply partly cause I hopped off to a conference and partly because I wasn't sure how to answer without rendering myself googleable. It's in theology. I wish I could be more open, but I've found that if you say even vague things about yourself on line you can get strangers calling you at home which turned out to be fine, but was still a lesson about the need to be more circumspect.

I look back up at Lost and wonder when it became such labor to watch.

[rahirah]

Hm. I probably care about characters most, but that doesn't mean I don't care about the other stuff. And if the plot and the theme and the continuity and the pacing go off and stay off, then I start caring less and less about the characters, because the characters are necessarily lessened by having to flounder a round in a badly told story.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

1. I always carry a book with me, to read in line, or on public transportation, or while eating alone is restaurants... I just don't see kindle or the iPad replacing my enjoyment of having my book at hand without worrying about battery power, light glare, etc. Basically I just love books. I love buying a new book, reading it carefully so the spine remains unbroken and the pages are all clean, so I can turn around and gift it to a friend; you cannot do THAT with Kindle or iPad! lol

2. I have to confess that I just ordered Butcher's latest Dresden novel from Amazon (for $9.99), I want it waiting for me when I get back to Fairfield, IA... and there are no bookstores in Fairfield that will be carrying it (there is just one used bookstore, and one 'new wave'/spiritual bookstore... neither carry any popular new books, oh yeah... and there is a third: a Christian bookstore! They won't carry it either). I would have happily paid more for it; I can't wait to read it.

3. Well you know that I don't think BtVS S8 has 'jumped the shark': I think that Joss is jerking the fans around and will pay off all this nonsense eventually.

The term 'jump the shark' (as I'm sure you know) comes from Happy Days when the show was so desperate for new ideas that they literally had the Fonz jump his motorcycle over a huge tub containing a shark. To me the term means that the show and it's writers/creator is so completely out of ideas that they are abandoning whatever reality the show originally had and are now stretching reality to come up with obviously lame plot ideas. I felt that Seinfeld had also clearly jumped the shark when Kramer hit a golf ball into a whale's blow hole and later George saved it by pulling the golf ball out to impress his girlfriend.

Obviously it is harder for Buffy to jump the shark since we had all kinds of silly monsters and plot devises right from the start, but there has always been a 'truth' to the characters... I don't think that having Buffy react thoughtlessly/impulsively/whatever by shagging Angel is out of character for her (pretty much the only person she ever slept with un-impulsively was Riley Finn, spontaneous surprise sex is common place for her IMO).

I'll be waiting (a long long time, obviously) to get to the end to decide whether or not Joss is out of ideas and hopelessly ruining everything BtVS ever stood for.... I'm betting he isn't and hasn't just because he has a story arc in mind, and no one was forcing him to write this comics. I'm assuming I'll enjoy the story arc (I've always liked all the other story arcs).

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Audible.com has "Changes" available for download as of this morning, so if you have any desire to hear James Marsters narrate the book, it's available now.

As to Lost, I've rather loved the sideways-verse this season. It seems to place me in a minority, but I love the way that it explores the characters. And, yes, tonight's episode provides some answers (though not to what in the heck is Widmore's plan), but it does help illuminate the sideways-verse a bit.

Re: The comics... I can't go on record about "jumping the shark." In general I dislike the phrase and I experienced significant Joss disillusionment long before the end of the series the beginning of the comics. That said, the comics constantly make me go WTF?! in a not good way while simultaneously solidifying some of my prior negaitve impressions. All in all, they just aren't my thing and I wish I knew less about them. I enjoyed the Whedonverse more as a closed canon. And given the difference in feel (and the wildness of story) I cannot bring myself to consider the comics as canon.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

On the comics: longish post to say, for me, not jumped. I might change my mind later. As some background, I generally enjoyed the series up until "Retreat"; there were some dissatisfactions in some of the arcs, and some of the one-shots were clunkers, but overall I came away feeling good.

Now, "Retreat." I actually didn't hate any of the issues in the arc. But they didn't quite work, either, with the possible exception of the third, which is itself rushed. The first issue's huge jumps around narratively confused me. The second issue's werewolf backstory generally bored me, though it was nice to reconnect with Oz (even if adding more characters to the story was a bad move overall). The third one was too brief, and didn't need to be narrated by Andrew, but its essential emotional points seemed true to me. The last two issues were big-battle stuff and not done very well, because Espenson et al. didn't set up the stakes very clearly. So yes, I found "Retreat" to be weak.

BUT right now--I still do like the characters. I find it moving that Buffy still struggles with her Otherness even in a world she's changed so that she wouldn't have to be Other and alone. Her attraction to humanity and Xander on the one hand, and power and Angel on the other. The temptation to escape from the difficulty of having to yield the power she has sensibly, trying desperately either to give it up entirely or give herself over to it.

And I feel like I'm slowly coming to understand Willow's story this year, in a way that I don't know how to articulate. I might write about it eventually, if I can get my thoughts in order. Willow does bad things, and half-acknowledges them, because there's a sense that, knowing what she's capable of, she's stopped trying to control her fate: she thinks she's on the path to damnation, and to being killed by Buffy in the future, but is too scared to do anything. She's a force, not a person, and it takes Oz' unconditional trust and hugely down-to-Earth advice (you could get a donor!) to convince her that there is an independent her left, and even that is temporary.

I liked Turbulence and Twilight, Part One. I liked the character comedy and drama of the former, with the ambiguities (do we take Xander's assessment of Buffy's feelings at face value? or Buffy's assessment of the unhealthy age difference between him and Dawn?). I liked the latter's mythology bomb, and the revelation about Buffy sucking powers from other slayers, and the way it ties in with Buffy's fears about her power and her superiority/inferiority complex. And as for Twilight, Part 2, with the Angel reveal--I honestly don't know how I felt about it when I read it. Shocked, I think--but not angry. The fandom reaction afterwards was so overpowering that I barely remember my own feelings. I don't think I was concerned that Buffy was being ruined, or that Angel had been whitewashed.

Which is why I think I'm going to try (even though I just got an lj!) to stay away from fandom for a few days when the next issue comes out--because I feel like it's difficult for me to enjoy the issue (or, if I hate it, hate it properly) with all the reactions online.

Of course, there are aspects that are not leaving me satisfied. Besides Buffy, Willow and Xander, I don't quite know where characters' heads are. I don't really know where Dawn's headspace has been since "Living Doll," and I think playing Xander/Dawn almost entirely from Buffy's perspective was a mistake. The "Predators and Prey" arc did not lead well into "Retreat" at all, and Amy and Warren have been used to so little effect that I can't imagine why it was worth bringing them back as villains at all, especially Warren. (I had assumed that Warren's return was going to lead to a deeper exploration of Willow's dark side, especially as he immediately reminded her of that act--but that didn't lead anywhere, and time is running out.) Some characters, like Andrew, Giles and Faith, I feel like I largely understand but there are significant gaps. And obviously even with the main characters there are huge chunks of information missing, infamously like why Buffy was driven to rob banks. But I hope I've detailed a few reasons why I'm still enjoying them.

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

No opinion either way until the season is finished, although I doubt I would ever apply the "jump the shark" term in any event, since I feel that even Joss's weaker work is still better than the average by a goodly amount.

(Same with LOST, BTW-- when it's done, it done, judge how successful they were at that time.)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Count me among the ones who aren't big fans of the "jump the shark" phrase or idea; it's more a drawn-out series of increased alienation.

That said, I made this one back when the issue came out:

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I was very grateful for ember_log's definition because I was always a bit fuzzy on the exact meaning of the term.

I'd say yes, they jumped the shark multible times now and it always makes me role my eyes. Giant Dawn, Centaur Dawn, Mecha Dawn, Batsu (the way it was presented),the Superpowers,Twangel, they all go for cheap effect and non of them are really actually interesting, still waiting for that.

As some others wrote, I don't think such things never were part of the show. Things like the many deaths and ressurections and so on were pretty similar, but on this was (and was treated as) background noise. As the stage on which the real play was set. I never felt had to be impressed by someone's superpowers, but by the character interaction and the metaphorical meanings. So the sharkjumping is not as much my problem as the glaring lack of the things I liked. There are glimpses here and there, but contrary to the show, where you could enjoy the ride if you overlooked some holes here and there, in the comic there are about 5 scenes that really feel like Buffy to me and that's very little to go on.

To your question, to me it's both.It's the characters that make me fall in love with a story and if I can't recognize them I become annoyed. But it's the story and it's metaphores that I like to muse about and I'm very fond of the feminism in Buffy (as off the mark as it may be at times) and if it's gone, Buffy makes a huge step to become like every other comic to me, losing what makes it special.

[elisi]

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Oh wait, I already do! Cool! :)

(Re. the post, then for me it was the [STILL UNEXPLAINED] bank robbing.)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Do you think the Buffy Comics jumped the shark? And if so, why or if not, why not??? I'm actually more interested in the why not's, to be honest.

IMO, Joss had been honing the art of jumping the shark since 1997. He did it so many times that it stopped being jumping the shark and became his trademark style.

[hkath.livejournal.com]

Ah, LOST. I actually had a similar experience in LOST fandom around the end of season 2 through season 3 than we're having now in Buffy fandom. And I'm in the same position - surrounded by disillusioned fans and trying desperately not to get sucked into negativity.

I don't think the comics have jumped the shark. I think it's premature to assume that at this time. I think the events of the last issue (and probably today's issue) are completely cracked-out weird, but that doesn't mean they're not going to be explained in a way that makes sense later.

The only way I was able to enjoy LOST for a very long time was with a sense of complete detachment from the characters I once loved, and a general sense of mockery of the plot. I'm slowly coming back from that into enjoying the show as a whole again. I really hope that doesn't happen for me with the Buffy comics.

I'm about 50-50 theme/characters, for the record.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I tend to be loyal to a series if I start watching for serious (and I don’t watch very many) so I never really understood the term “jumping the shark” until Heroes, which lost me very rapidly after S1. As far as the S8 comics go, I’m actually enjoying them more and more as the end approaches and the threads twist together. I found the Retreat arc quite powerful for what it put Buffy through. I could feel her desperation in the way she was flinging herself into one crazy solution after another but events (and now mythology) turned out to be always one step ahead of her. I get a rush from the craziness that other people seem to find off putting. I don’t like stories where every thing adds up and two and two never make five.

Characters vs themes: I like patterns. I’ll generally watch a story to see the interrelationships between the characters and the world (but the world includes each other). With two notable exceptions (Buffy and Sarah Connor) I don’t tend to latch on to individual characters - I don’t make up back or forward stories (probably one reason fanfic doesn’t hold much interest, plus it often reads as too didactic).

[next_to_normal]

I had pre-ordered "Changes" from Amazon back at Christmas, I think, and I just got an email that it was shipped. Amazon does that "pre-order price guarantee" thing, where you pay the lowest price if the price decreases between the time you place the order and when it's available, so I ended up paying $9.99, which came as a shock, since I hadn't been paying attention to the Walmart thing.

As for the comics, I kind of loathe the phrase "jump the shark," since people throw it around so much it's lost all meaning. The point at which I refused to spend any more money on the comics was the "Time of Your Life" arc.

It particularly bothers me when an author sacrifices plot and/or characterization in order to convey a certain message. Then I feel like I'm being preached at. Joss definitely tends toward this kind of storytelling - he'll string together a plot with duct tape and chicken wire as long as the thematic elements are in place ("The Gift" or "Chosen," for example), but he often pulls it off. But I think the problems with the comic go way, way beyond just the message overwhelming the story. To be honest, I'm not even sure what the message of S8 is supposed to BE.

I think I'd echo what Barb said - the characters are what's most important to me, but if the plot, continuity, and pacing suck, then that can ruin it just as easily as bad characterization. And S8 is plagued with those kinds of problems PLUS bad characterization PLUS an anti-feminist message, so it really was a sinking ship from the beginning.

[next_to_normal]

*slow clap*

Somehow I must've missed this when the issue came out. Well-played, sir.

Books

[hankat.livejournal.com]

I had Mr. Rufus pick up my copy of Changes yesterday while I was sleeping. I like Dresden and Rachel Morgan as well. Now I need a kindle or something....it is my 20th anniversary soon.

Rufus

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I like this.

[revdorothyl.livejournal.com]

If Fonzie had jumped his motorcycle over a shark in a tank, that might've been a tad more in-character and connected to some semblence of reality, at least. Instead, they took the whole "Happy Days" cast down to Cyprus Gardens or someplace similar in Florida, and had Fonzie water-skiing (in trunks AND his signature leather jacket, of course!), with a water-ski jump over an enclosure containing a shark as the big cliff-hanger for this two-parter (or possibly more) episode. Even as a kid, I remember feeling embarassed on behalf of anyone associated with the once-entertaining series as I watched the Fonz water-skiing, and the whole lame not-even-really-an-attempt-at-a-plot that was woven around those scenes.

That said, I'm hoping that Joss can somehow redeem all the seeming shark-jumping going on in the S8 comics, in the end. I recall thinking there was a potential shark-jump coming when I saw the promos for the "Angel" episode "Smile Time" (an Angel puppet? Really?!), and Joss pulled that off without getting more than a few of his toes wet.

I live in hope (and denial -- lots and lots of denial!).

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Oh thank you, yes, I had forgotten (repressed) the memory of the Fonz in bathing trunks and leather jacket. *shudder*

And I have to protest, I didn't think that 'Smile Time' resulted in any wet toes.... That is a classic success IMO! Even the 'loan shark' in 'Tabula Rasa' wasn't a case of jumping the shark!

I have confidence in Joss, I don't feel that he has let me down before....

[revdorothyl.livejournal.com]

Well, I loved "Tabula Rasa" (including the loan shark), and I'll admit that I was perhaps too lukewarm in my evaluation of "Smile Time" (yes, as your icon reminds me, Angel and his removable nose WERE adorable -- even Spike thought so!).

And I confess, I do have an "Angel Smile Time Puppet" (mint in box -- but only because I never dust and don't want it to get dingy) sitting on top of my bookshelves at home!

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, Spike wrestling with the wee little puppet man was a brilliant moment, JM at his best!

I really really wanted a 'vampire' Angel puppet.... but I would have taken it out of it's box, I never can resist.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

A while back you asked me about my dissertation, and I didn't reply partly cause I hopped off to a conference and partly because I wasn't sure how to answer without rendering myself googleable. It's in theology. I wish I could be more open, but I've found that if you say even vague things about yourself on line you can get strangers calling you at home which turned out to be fine, but was still a lesson about the need to be more circumspect.

No worries. I probably shouldn't have asked. To be honest? I was expecting something more general - such as say oh, it's a paper on John Donne or something to that effect. Nothing that could reveal who you were specifically. But I get it. I really can't write much about my occupation online and when I do? I filter or flock it. And even then, I get nervous.

There's a whole host of things that I don't allow myself to talk about online. Or have to remind myself that I can't - and end up deleting posts after I've screwed up. ;-)


Regarding the Buffy comics - there's a rather interesting take by local_max in the comments below that you should take a look at it. It more or less changed my mind regarding the comics. I'm admittedly struggling with the whole flying TWuffy sex bit...but they have done weirder things, I guess.

I look back up at Lost and wonder when it became such labor to watch.

I think I'm having somewhat the same problems with Lost that I'm currently having with Buffy - which is I'm sort of bored/frustrated or uninterested in the thematic arc - which I'm certain is interesting to the writer, but not all that interesting to me, personally. It's just not resonating in the way it had in past seasons.

I also feel as if both stories are chasing their own tails - in that they are repeating themselves. And the characters as a result aren't really progressing forward. There's no sense of accomplishment or forward momentum. I feel like they are running in place or going backwards. And that may well be my frustration with them. (shrugs)

But last night's episode of Lost made the last three seem fairly entertaining and gripping by comparison.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

If you haven't already - you should read Local_max's take on my post, her comment is somewhere below and changed my mind more or less.

On the Kindle? I got it - because I just don't have any more room for any more books. I'm overloaded. And can't get rid of them. I love books, but space is becoming an issue. ;-)

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

yeah, I've been reading everyone's comments here... I have to say that this is a great thread!
I loved local_max's post, very thoughtful/insightful....

I've had to (over the last 4 decades or so) get rid of accumulated books many times, and it is always painful. I did donate my beloved Louisa May Alcott books (inscribed to me for my 11th & 12th birthdays) to a library which still has them on the shelves! But too often I find myself re-acquiring books I gave up.... Books are a problem, luckily I have a lot of friends who enjoy getting the books I love to read! lol

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

What a well-thought out, and wonderful response. You have brilliantly detailed the things that I like and dislike about the comics and managed to change my mind a bit about them. Kudos. No one else did.

Her attraction to humanity and Xander on the one hand, and power and Angel on the other. The temptation to escape from the difficulty of having to yield the power she has sensibly, trying desperately either to give it up entirely or give herself over to it.

I think you've managed to articulate and hit the theme that the author/Whedon is exploring spot on. This is what I believe Whedon is interested in and what he attempted to write with his Wonder Woman screenplay. And it is admittedly why I am still hanging in there.

I can, however, see the other perspectives. And I remain uncertain that Whedon's theme works for Buffy. If the desire to take the story he'd meant for Wonder Woman and put it in Buffy while understandable, was a good idea. It is however, the reason I think he choose to do the Buffy comics. Remember - he agreed to do Buffy immediately after the Wonder Woman film was scrapped and his screen play along with it.

The fandom reaction afterwards was so overpowering that I barely remember my own feelings.

This is admittedly my difficulty as well. I enjoy the fandom. It's quite creative and incredibly sweet, if not nutty at times but aren't they all?
And I rather adore fanfiction. (have you seen the all penguine Buffy verse?) So there's that.

BUT...fandom admittedly does influence my perceptions. Partly because I can see more than one point of view. And am regrettably invested in some of the characters...more than I like to admit. But if I weren't you would see few posts on Buffy, or you would - but they'd be more like my Lost and BSG and Caprica posts - lacking passion. Plus, I doubt I'd still be reading the comics if it weren't for the fandom. It's sort of the snake eating its own tail in a weird way that I can't quite explain.

Also, fandom admittedly affected how I initially saw S7. I found I loved the Season - much more than the fandom did - once the series was over and I was able to watch it without the commentaries and reviews. Lies My Parents Told Me is an example of an episode that I have interpreted five different ways - so far. With the fandom? I found it hard to watch and frustrating - even racist and misogynistic. Without the fandom - I adored it and thought it was brilliant and layered.
And? I admittedly liked issue 32 more than the fandom did. I thought the Buffy/Twilight bit was hilarious. I still do. Yet at the same time, in character - well to a degree. They had set it up...granted I'm not crazy about the issues in which they did it, but it was there - in Retreat through Turbulence - where we get the illusions to the bad werewolf who gives into his power vs. OZ who gives his up. And the whole Buffy wondering what it would be like to just give in to it. To let the power overtake her. Which is literally what she does in issue 32 - she lets the power overtake her. She gives in to it. The extreme opposite of what she did in Retreat - where she gave it all up.

You are correct, they should have shown the Xander/Dawn/Buffy thing from Dawn and Buffy's pov, not Buffy and Xander's. I may have bought it - if they'd done it a bit differently. As it stands, there's a creep factor in it, that I'm positive was not intended. And would not have been - if we'd seen more of it from Dawn's perspective.

At any rate - I think you may be correct that interacting with others prior to or while reading and watching something does affect how we perceive it. We may love it alone. But hate it with the crowd.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Thanks! On my journal I wrote a bit about #34, mostly plotty bits. I was a bit worried my response was incoherent; I had a longer thing written about Willow in this season, but I deleted it after I realized that it didn't make any sense at all.

Someone pointed out the Xander/Angel comparison, I can't remember who anymore, so I can't take total credit for it. But yes--it's really neat, and does seem to be where the comics are going. I think you're right about the Wonder Woman script as well, which is a shame if Joss really did try to shoehorn it in. As you've mentioned before, to an extent he tried to shoehorn in aspects of Angel-as-Twilight into Dollhouse (via Boyd and Rossum). In some ways, I feel like Whedon has been overextended for years, and could maybe take some time to cool down, get his thoughts in order. But I've still liked most of his work, I just don't think it's on the same level as his best.

Re Oz and Munroe, giving into the wolf vs. ignoring it entirely: I think that the dichotomy is there, hopefully, for Buffy to subvert it, by neither giving up power nor giving into it fully. So take the path that is not Oz and not Munroe, but in between. That's part of what season seven was about--Willow and Spike can't refrain from using the power they have, but they can't give in fully and go dark because of it. It's why I've always liked "Get it Done."

I owe a lot of my thoughts and understanding to fandom. The subversive elements, the themes and resonances, the nuances, the numerous references of some episodes to others--I wouldn't have seen them without reading posts about it. So there is that. I feel like I'm a bit better at picking things up than I used to be, but intelligent posts still bring me a lot futher along. The negative side is there as well. I read one or two review sites back when I was watching season seven, and they were mostly positive, which matched up with my view of the show. Then a few episodes before the end, I read, I think, an article by Jaime Weinman called "Why Spike Ruined Buffy the Vampire Slayer," which, besides its rather controversial central thesis *g*, also took a hardline stance that the show has been generally terrible. I explored online some more, and found that reaction to the season had been very negative. And it was suddenly harder to enjoy it, because I was suddenly watching the show that the negative reviews had described, as opposed to the show I had been watching and enjoying. Now I feel that it's a good season, but not as strong overall as 2-6. But it's taken time for me to sort that out.

Oh--and I didn't mention this in my first thing, but I dislike the term "jump the shark" also. But then...there are shows where it's hard to use any other term. "Heroes" is one, for me. At the time, I really disliked Veronica Mars' third season, but I suspect now with a little more distance I could probably appreciate it more.

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ETA: on Dawn, in "Turbulence" Buffy calls Xander a pedophile, so the creep factor is acknowledged, it's just uncertain whether that's intentional or just lampshading. Either way, the buildup to X/D was pretty good I thought (in "Anywhere But Here" and "Time of Your Life" especially), there just hasn't been much since they got together.