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shadowkatReminded today in a somewhat headache inducing manner at work, and an rather entertaining/fascinating one online, that no matter what happens in my life, no matter what I do, one thing will always remain a constant - people will interpret things (regardless of what it is - it could a pattern on a wall or a stain) vastly differently. And they will all be convinced that their interpretation is of course the correct one, the best one, the most accurate, the logical one, no matter what. That there isn't another interpretation. OR if there is - will be bewildered that anyone could interpret this differently. (At work - I had not one but three frustrating arguments regarding this issue - I'd go into more detail, but really rather not.)
Watching Chuck in the background. And have come to the conclusion that Mark A. Shepard has allowed himself to be typecast - to such a degree that whenever he shows up, I know what character he is playing - purely by sight. Oh, it's Mark A Shepard? He must be playing the snarky villian character or antagonist. Yep. I gotta give James Marsters credit - he could have done the same thing, but hasn't. He's actually played a far broader range.
[ETA: You know - The problem with LOST is it has gotten so convoluted in its plotting with the whole time traveling bit and the vast ensemble cast - that writing posts about it to discuss, can feel a bit like writing a logic game. Not helped by the fact that people insist on using their own terminology to discuss certain aspects of it. Head-ach inducing. Hee, the audience gets "lost" and confused discussing LOST, something tells me that's not coincidental, albeit at times alienating - if you aren't maschositic like me.]
Regarding Lost -I have to admit that last night's episode bored me, although there were a few interesting plot bits. Once again, it felt like I was watching the characters chase their own tails. So not only boring, somewhat frustrating. Lost has gotten obsessed with stories about characters chasing after something they can't ever achieve. Sort of like watching Wile E. Coyote chase the Road Runner. After a while...you start rooting for Wile E to kill the Road Runner and end your misery. Okay maybe not you, I do. This whole - I must find the girl of my dreams...where oh where is she, and oh, I saw her...but no..gone! AAAAAH. Is getting old. Yeah, yeah, I know it's all part of the whole "lost" theme - the characters are lost in time, the characters have lost themselves, the characters have lost their girlfriends or loves...sigh.
Also, maybe its just me? But I feel as if the show is repeating itself in regards to these characters arcs. Desmond is either hunting Widmore's approval (which he gets this round and is very happy with) or hunting Widmore's daughter and to be reunited with her (which he doesn't).
This appears to be a common theme. In the Islandverse the characters resolve one thing, but lose another or can't get another, while in the Sideways/Rebootverse - they gain the thing they didn't have on the Island, but lose the thing they did. Lock - loses his ability to walk, but has Helene,his dad, and a job he enjoys plus life, Jack doesn't have Kate or leadership, but he comes to terms with his father and has a son, Ford (sawyer) doesn't get to kill the man who destroyed his family, but he has close friends, a career, and isn't a criminal, Claire doesn't find Charlie, but has Aaron...etc. Either way - life ain't perfect. But in both cases the characters think the grass is greener in the other verse. In Island - they are upset it didn't work, in Sideways they are upset that it did. In short? Humans are never satisfied. And a bit whiny. Got it. ;-)
[As an aside: Desmond trying to find Penny, finding her, only to lose her all over again - has been on-going and is getting a bit repetitive not to mention boring at least to me, I may be alone in this. I've come to the conclusion that after about three years, the star-crossed lover bit is old. Actually by the third year of it - I'm ready to shout at the writers - shit or get off the pot, already!!! Honestly, sane people don't do this, we move on!! Also, I think I'm burned out on the whole trope. Been there, done that on one too many tv shows. It's becoming a cliche. Seriously. Romeo and Juliet died for a reason, it was a relationship that could not sustain itself for a long period of time. Too exhausting for all involved.]
That said? The episode did reveal a few things. I'm just not happy about the reveals, because they are reminding me of why I hate time-travel story-lines. The whole - oh, we are in a universe that should not exist and if we do this - we will fix it and go back to the better one, yet how do we know it's better idea - has been done to death. I'm sorry but it has. Star Trek Next Generation's finale, Voyager, Buffy the Vampire Slayer - The Wish, and countless Twilight Zone episodes. After a while, you think, uh, you can't come up with something else??? I mean this was done by Back in the Future in the 1980s. I already know the outcome. Although, will state that there is a twist this time around - the Sideways universe the characters think is the wrong one is actually in many ways much better than the other one/Islandverse - there is a reason Daniel Faraday exploded that bomb. So Desmond doesn't have Penny - yet? Big Whoop.
At least he has half a chance and isn't beaten up and suffering on a frigging island with an insane father-in-law. And so...Daniel isn't with Charlotte - at least Charlotte is alive and so is Faraday - who as a result, also have a chance. Same with Jin and Sun - they are at least together, more or less. I don't know, if I had to choose - I'd pick the Sideways Universe.
The other thing I'm picking up on is a distinct Machiavellian tone to the series. The writers seem to be followers of Machiavelli. ie. The ends justify the means along with other tid-bits. At least they are - if they like Jacob. Jacob's very Machiavellian. Personally, I'm not crazy about Machiavelli, but to each their own.
Desmond after being blasted by the generator is now, apparently aware of both timelines - which I more or less guessed they'd do, when and if, Desmond reappeared. That was unfortunately predictable. Question is - is Widmore and Eloise Hawking aware of both timelines? I'm guessing so. As is Daniel Faraday. Faraday, Hawking, and Widmore seem to know more than they are telling - about the island's effects on space and time. Is Smokey aware of the second time line??? OR was Jacob?? Were either responsible for the decision to do it? I doubt it. They'd have to work overtime to prove a causal link - because I really don't see one. Neither Jacob nor Smokey were anywhere near Faraday or for that matter Juliet. Faraday talked Jack into it. And Jack talked Juliet. No Smokey or Jacob in sight - they were too busy playing games with Ben Linus at the time.
Is the whole point of this season - getting the two timelines back together, and doing away with one of them? Because if so...I'm not sure I'm in favor - I prefer the separate time lines co-existing. That's more interesting to me and a tad less cliche.
On another front? There were things that happened in the Sideways Universe (or alt!verse or Rebootverse) that seem illogical to me. How in the hell did Charles Widmore, Eloise Hawking, and Danial Faraday escape that island? [ETA: Daniel Faraday aka Daniel Hawking/Widmore - who Eloise was pregnant with on the island when she killed Faraday. The reason she helps Sayid and Jack with the bomb - is to change things so that her son will live.] Eloise was knocked unconscious in a cave by Alpert - and quite a ways from the location of the submarine - at least a day's walk. Did Richard evacuate them all on a submarine? He found one that quickly? And they got away that fast??? What did they do? Ride SMokey? Or find a nifty tunnel?? My suspension of disbelief is faltering...I could buy Widmore, maybe, but Hawking (prenant with) Daniel?? Also, everyone was not evacuated when the incident occurred in the Islandverse - so why were they in Sideways? Shouldn't Ben and everyone who was still with the Dharma Initiative and not on that sub that left with Sawyer and Juliet, be dead? Unless they swam out to it??
This season isn't quite holding together in my opinion...which is my problem with time-travel storylines - they tend to come across as a bit of a gimmick and often make no sense. Require too much detail and television writers don't tend to be very detail oriented, generally speaking. The only time-travel stories that make sense are the one's that abide by the rules and don't change time. You can't. Be like taking a tapestry and trying to fix one section of it or say a knitted sweater - going back to fix one section - the whole thing unravels. You can't pull one thread and put in a new one, without unraveling the whole work. Time is the same way.
I get why they are doing it. The whole Lost metaphor. But...I don't think it is working.
Hopefully next week's episode which will focus on Hurley will be better.
Watching Chuck in the background. And have come to the conclusion that Mark A. Shepard has allowed himself to be typecast - to such a degree that whenever he shows up, I know what character he is playing - purely by sight. Oh, it's Mark A Shepard? He must be playing the snarky villian character or antagonist. Yep. I gotta give James Marsters credit - he could have done the same thing, but hasn't. He's actually played a far broader range.
[ETA: You know - The problem with LOST is it has gotten so convoluted in its plotting with the whole time traveling bit and the vast ensemble cast - that writing posts about it to discuss, can feel a bit like writing a logic game. Not helped by the fact that people insist on using their own terminology to discuss certain aspects of it. Head-ach inducing. Hee, the audience gets "lost" and confused discussing LOST, something tells me that's not coincidental, albeit at times alienating - if you aren't maschositic like me.]
Regarding Lost -I have to admit that last night's episode bored me, although there were a few interesting plot bits. Once again, it felt like I was watching the characters chase their own tails. So not only boring, somewhat frustrating. Lost has gotten obsessed with stories about characters chasing after something they can't ever achieve. Sort of like watching Wile E. Coyote chase the Road Runner. After a while...you start rooting for Wile E to kill the Road Runner and end your misery. Okay maybe not you, I do. This whole - I must find the girl of my dreams...where oh where is she, and oh, I saw her...but no..gone! AAAAAH. Is getting old. Yeah, yeah, I know it's all part of the whole "lost" theme - the characters are lost in time, the characters have lost themselves, the characters have lost their girlfriends or loves...sigh.
Also, maybe its just me? But I feel as if the show is repeating itself in regards to these characters arcs. Desmond is either hunting Widmore's approval (which he gets this round and is very happy with) or hunting Widmore's daughter and to be reunited with her (which he doesn't).
This appears to be a common theme. In the Islandverse the characters resolve one thing, but lose another or can't get another, while in the Sideways/Rebootverse - they gain the thing they didn't have on the Island, but lose the thing they did. Lock - loses his ability to walk, but has Helene,his dad, and a job he enjoys plus life, Jack doesn't have Kate or leadership, but he comes to terms with his father and has a son, Ford (sawyer) doesn't get to kill the man who destroyed his family, but he has close friends, a career, and isn't a criminal, Claire doesn't find Charlie, but has Aaron...etc. Either way - life ain't perfect. But in both cases the characters think the grass is greener in the other verse. In Island - they are upset it didn't work, in Sideways they are upset that it did. In short? Humans are never satisfied. And a bit whiny. Got it. ;-)
[As an aside: Desmond trying to find Penny, finding her, only to lose her all over again - has been on-going and is getting a bit repetitive not to mention boring at least to me, I may be alone in this. I've come to the conclusion that after about three years, the star-crossed lover bit is old. Actually by the third year of it - I'm ready to shout at the writers - shit or get off the pot, already!!! Honestly, sane people don't do this, we move on!! Also, I think I'm burned out on the whole trope. Been there, done that on one too many tv shows. It's becoming a cliche. Seriously. Romeo and Juliet died for a reason, it was a relationship that could not sustain itself for a long period of time. Too exhausting for all involved.]
That said? The episode did reveal a few things. I'm just not happy about the reveals, because they are reminding me of why I hate time-travel story-lines. The whole - oh, we are in a universe that should not exist and if we do this - we will fix it and go back to the better one, yet how do we know it's better idea - has been done to death. I'm sorry but it has. Star Trek Next Generation's finale, Voyager, Buffy the Vampire Slayer - The Wish, and countless Twilight Zone episodes. After a while, you think, uh, you can't come up with something else??? I mean this was done by Back in the Future in the 1980s. I already know the outcome. Although, will state that there is a twist this time around - the Sideways universe the characters think is the wrong one is actually in many ways much better than the other one/Islandverse - there is a reason Daniel Faraday exploded that bomb. So Desmond doesn't have Penny - yet? Big Whoop.
At least he has half a chance and isn't beaten up and suffering on a frigging island with an insane father-in-law. And so...Daniel isn't with Charlotte - at least Charlotte is alive and so is Faraday - who as a result, also have a chance. Same with Jin and Sun - they are at least together, more or less. I don't know, if I had to choose - I'd pick the Sideways Universe.
The other thing I'm picking up on is a distinct Machiavellian tone to the series. The writers seem to be followers of Machiavelli. ie. The ends justify the means along with other tid-bits. At least they are - if they like Jacob. Jacob's very Machiavellian. Personally, I'm not crazy about Machiavelli, but to each their own.
Desmond after being blasted by the generator is now, apparently aware of both timelines - which I more or less guessed they'd do, when and if, Desmond reappeared. That was unfortunately predictable. Question is - is Widmore and Eloise Hawking aware of both timelines? I'm guessing so. As is Daniel Faraday. Faraday, Hawking, and Widmore seem to know more than they are telling - about the island's effects on space and time. Is Smokey aware of the second time line??? OR was Jacob?? Were either responsible for the decision to do it? I doubt it. They'd have to work overtime to prove a causal link - because I really don't see one. Neither Jacob nor Smokey were anywhere near Faraday or for that matter Juliet. Faraday talked Jack into it. And Jack talked Juliet. No Smokey or Jacob in sight - they were too busy playing games with Ben Linus at the time.
Is the whole point of this season - getting the two timelines back together, and doing away with one of them? Because if so...I'm not sure I'm in favor - I prefer the separate time lines co-existing. That's more interesting to me and a tad less cliche.
On another front? There were things that happened in the Sideways Universe (or alt!verse or Rebootverse) that seem illogical to me. How in the hell did Charles Widmore, Eloise Hawking, and Danial Faraday escape that island? [ETA: Daniel Faraday aka Daniel Hawking/Widmore - who Eloise was pregnant with on the island when she killed Faraday. The reason she helps Sayid and Jack with the bomb - is to change things so that her son will live.] Eloise was knocked unconscious in a cave by Alpert - and quite a ways from the location of the submarine - at least a day's walk. Did Richard evacuate them all on a submarine? He found one that quickly? And they got away that fast??? What did they do? Ride SMokey? Or find a nifty tunnel?? My suspension of disbelief is faltering...I could buy Widmore, maybe, but Hawking (prenant with) Daniel?? Also, everyone was not evacuated when the incident occurred in the Islandverse - so why were they in Sideways? Shouldn't Ben and everyone who was still with the Dharma Initiative and not on that sub that left with Sawyer and Juliet, be dead? Unless they swam out to it??
This season isn't quite holding together in my opinion...which is my problem with time-travel storylines - they tend to come across as a bit of a gimmick and often make no sense. Require too much detail and television writers don't tend to be very detail oriented, generally speaking. The only time-travel stories that make sense are the one's that abide by the rules and don't change time. You can't. Be like taking a tapestry and trying to fix one section of it or say a knitted sweater - going back to fix one section - the whole thing unravels. You can't pull one thread and put in a new one, without unraveling the whole work. Time is the same way.
I get why they are doing it. The whole Lost metaphor. But...I don't think it is working.
Hopefully next week's episode which will focus on Hurley will be better.
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no subject
Date: 2010-04-08 02:37 am (UTC)I'm sort of confused. When/where are we talking about? Isn't Daniel dead in Lostverse!Prime? The younger version of Eloise shot and killed him. The older version of Eloise sent Daniel back in time knowing that the younger version of herself would kill him, so isn't he dead in Lost!Prime? Are we talking in the alt!verse? Wasn't Widmore thrown off the island earlier than that (I honestly don't remember). And Eloise hasn't been on the island for a while...I thought. I haven't rewatched last season, but were they even there? (On the bright side, at least you haven't been reduced to drawing graphs yet. While trying to explain to a friend what I thought was happening, I was reduced to drawing diagrams (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v80/shipperx/CYCLE.gif)! ::embarassed::)
As to who should be dead or not... well Locke's spine was magically healed, and the island moved in space/time, and there are seemingly eternal demi-gods. So generally the laws of the universe seem to work a bit differently there. And it's been ages since I read "The Elegant Universe" but I think most theories of alternate universes have multiple divergence points so just because it's an AU doesn't necessarily mean it's timeline is continuous with Lost!Prime. (We need more Farraday to explain. :)
More on that, though, is that I'm not sure that the difference begins with the bomb going off so much as it either creating a connection to a different universe or sealing off Lost!Verse prime into its own self-fulfilling loop, preventing all of it from influencing sideways-verse. I think it's quite possible that the AU diverges starting with either Jacob's interference in Lost!Prime or the Lostee's arrival in 1974 (and not in the sense that Lostee actions in 1974 are part of the AU. I think the time loop to 1974 was the Lost!Prime diverging from the AU. The fact that Zoe has Jin's map means that the 1974-1977 Lostee timetravel is within Lost!Prime. The AU seems to be a separate timeline predating either Jacob influence [I think the earliest interference we saw was Sawyer in 1976] or sans Lostee 1974). So in that sense, I don't think AU Ben (or his AU father, or Miles's AU father) were on the island when the bomb went off. Lostee arrival in 1974 was already an alteration of the timeline so the AU must have diverged prior to that... I think. It's complicated.)
And usually I hate soulmate crap. Today I was trying to figure out why Lost's soulmate stuff doesn't actually bother me and I think that it boils down to the AU soulmates being a result of Lost!Prime. They fell in love. Fate kept them apart but by creating the AU it's a bit like they're all saying "Screw you fate! Don't tell me we're impossible. I say we're possible!" Basically, to me it feels like everything in the AU is free will as opposed to Jacob's so-called 'fate'.
Sorry you aren't enjoying the season.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-08 03:37 am (UTC)I like some of the details. The fact that Penny has a different last name suggests, without too much detail, that Widmore had an affair with his wife Eloise, with Penny's mother, whereas in the other timeline he and Eloise divorced and Widmore remarried. (Or he and Eloise never got married? I forget, to be honest.) It's nice for Daniel that he got to become a great musician.
Interesting about True Love: Daniel talks about his True Love for Charlotte, but we know that meanwhile Charlotte is going out on dates with James Ford at the same time. So we shouldn't necessarily take this too seriously.
I didn't dislike this episode the way you did, but it didn't floor me or anything.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-08 12:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-08 04:35 pm (UTC)Lost!Verse = IslandVerse
PrimeVerse=IslandVerse
Alt!Verse = Sideways Verse
RebootVerse =Sideways Verse
So in short theres a)the PrimeVerse or IslandVerse, and b) Sideways Verse or Reboot or altverse.
Daniel Faraday is the son of Eloise Hawking and Charles Widmore, who took turns leading the Others during the 1970s.
According to the episode entitled the Incident, Eloise was pregnant with Faraday when the Incident occurred. We don't know if Charles was still on the island at that point. We know he made frequent trips off of it, and had an affair with Penny's mother and Penny is older than Faraday. So he may well have been with her mother at the time - no info is given.
Before the bomb is detonated - the following events take place:
1. Ben is shot by Sayid. Ben is taken by Juliet and Sawyer to be healed at the Temple. Juliet and Sawyer return (I think with Ben, can't remember). They are grabbed by Dharma leaders and put with Kate on submarine. Kate joins them to talk them into leaving the sub and stopping Jack and Sayid - who Daniel has talked into detonating a bomb on the island - which would kill everyone. They return with Kate - and change their minds, deciding to aid Jack in his attempt to detonate the bomb. Doing so kills Juliet in the IslandVerse or PrimeVerse.
The bomb detonates after the children that will become Miles and Charlotte - have left the island. BUT - Ben, his Dad, Eloise, Richard Alpert, etc - should still be on the island.
The fact that these people are still alive in the Sideways verse and in the IslandVerse - indicates that the only people who died because of the bomb were Mile's father and Juliet and Sayid who was shot by Ben's Dad but brought back by the same temple that brought back Ben.
What has not been sufficiently explained or clarified, which is a failure in the writing in my opinion - is whether the events leading up to the bomb exist in either universe. Did Ben get shot by Sayid in the Islandverse? Does he get shot by Sayid in the Sidewaysverse? You can argue either or neither based on what has been given. We don't know at this point what events that happened during the Incident exist in the Islandverse.
We do know that they most likely don't exist in the Sideways verse - because if they did, Ben, his dad, Eloise would be dead and Daniel would not have been born. This means that the Sideways verse took place in a universe where the island did not exist - it was underwater the whole time and never existed.
As opposed to the prior and more logical theory that everything took place in the verse where the island existed up until the 1970s and was sunk into the sea/destroyed by a hydrogen bomb and the Sideways verse splintered off at that point. So anyone killed prior to or because of the bomb, would not exist. That's the logical explanation. Lost like most sci-fi stories with time travel defies logic and as a result we've come up with a bizarre parrallel world where the island never existed or was beneath the sea the whole time - ie, what life would be like without the island's influence.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-08 08:31 pm (UTC)Will re-read your post tonight. (Although I don't think the rules necessarily apply to Eloise. In Henry Ian Cusick's TVGuide interview today, he flat-out says 'She is a law unto herself. She's working on a different timeline.' So...dunno.)
no subject
Date: 2010-04-08 09:34 pm (UTC)That does indeed seem impossible to explain. The only real possibilities are a) that Jughead's explosion didn't immediately sink the island, but merely caused the island to sink shortly thereafter, so that there was time to evacuate it, or b) that for some reason in the Sideways Verse the time travelers didn't arrive. But then Daniel wouldn't have set off the bomb. So (b) doesn't seem to make sense at all, and (a) seems unlikely.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-09 12:54 am (UTC)Actually I've been reading your comments about 'Lost' all along, to see if I'm missing anything, and it all sounds so confusing and unfulfilling that I'm content to continue to avoid it....
If you adore the ending then I can always get the DVDs and catch up with it.
I'm commenting because I REALLY agree about Mark Sheppard! Don't get me wrong, I like him... I've liked him as the bad guy on Leverage, Dollhouse, Firefly, and now on Chuck (I loved him in the more layered characters he got to play on BSG and Medium). Am I forgetting anything? Probably. But it is true that you know what to think when he appears, which is too bad.
JM has made more interesting choices, and I love that Barnabas on Caprica seems to be dark but layered (I'm betting he has very good reasons/motivations for his actions... that it isn't just about power and/or money). But at the same time I know that Mark Sheppard has a family and is just happy to be working regularly, it is hard on character actors (there are so many of them).
no subject
Date: 2010-04-10 03:57 pm (UTC)Actually I've been reading your comments about 'Lost' all along, to see if I'm missing anything, and it all sounds so confusing and unfulfilling that I'm content to continue to avoid it....
If you adore the ending then I can always get the DVDs and catch up with it
Sigh.
Now that was the approach I should have taken with the Buffy Comics. Save myself and everyone else on my flist much aggravation. Lesson learned. ;-)
JM has made more interesting choices, and I love that Barnabas on Caprica seems to be dark but layered (I'm betting he has very good reasons/motivations for his actions... that it isn't just about power and/or money). But at the same time I know that Mark Sheppard has a family and is just happy to be working regularly, it is hard on character actors (there are so many of them).
I think it is notable that Mark Shepard has gotten more and steadier work than JM. Partly because unlike JM he has embraced the type-casting. There was an interview recently with Colin Firth who stated that he embraced type-casting after Pride & Prejudice, because hello - work, and it provided him with the resources to do what he liked. He could not afford to be picky. And, he could do something with the type-casting, make it work to his benefit.
There's something to be said...for it, at any rate.
That said, as a viewer - I sort of wish the actors and the medium would take more risks, and stop playing it safe. Type-casting is sort of lazy casting in my opinion.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-10 04:57 pm (UTC)So I think there are advantages to taking a risk.
I hope Mark Sheppard gets the chance to do that, eventually.
I'm surprised that we don't see JM working more. But then I'm surprised we don't see Brent (Data on ST:NG) Spiner working more too (you may have noticed on my lj that I just got to meet him last weekend).