shadowkat | (no subject)

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Alright..taking a bit of time out to admit the latest Mark Watches post amused me.

Highlights:

*BUFFY’S DREAM. WHAT THE FUCK. Oh my god, Faith, I miss you. How is this show going to deal with you? I thought you were dead for sure, and now you’re here, and you’re in a coma, and I just feel bad for you. Why do I have a feeling this dream sequence has some other importance I’m not seeing?

Me: You have no idea. Fan literally rewound that dream five or six times to figure out the clues for the next two seasons - which are all interwoven in that dream. The coming of Dawn, Joyce's death, and finally Buffy's death to save the world.

And if you think the dream sequence in S3 is trippy, just wait until Restless in S4.

Also Dude, seriously, is Fuck your favorite word? It makes your posts difficult to read at work.

Angel: SHUT THE FUCK UP. I am so irritated by you and your constant need for melodrama. First, you don’t want Buffy around. Then you want to help her. Then you don’t want to live. And now you won’t stick around to say goodbye because it’ll be “too painful.” Maybe it’s so painful because you won’t make up your goddamn mind. Can you even imagine the pain you are causing Buffy with this whole back-and-forth routine? No? SO STOP IT.

If Angel's lurking indecisiveness where Buffy is concerned bugs him in Graduation Day, just wait for Pangs and I Will Always Remember You - which are what killed that ship dead for me. For more or less the same reason's Mark is echoing above.

Oh, of course Angel is going to Brood in the fog and smoke before disappearing. Angel was never truly worried about saying goodbye. He just needed to brood one last time.

LOL! Actually, not for the last time. And... Well he never actually does need to say goodbye, because he just keeps popping up, once a season. I think the only season he didn't pop up was S6 - no wait, he did, just off stage. B/A relationship otherwise known as "do I stay or do I go, I can't make up my mind!!!"

Almost makes me want to re-watch the series again.

I think my Buffy poll is finally done. I'll close it Friday night. With 75 participants, S3 is still not much of a favorite, only 11 people list it as a favorite and only 6 as their favorite of all the seasons. S5 is still ahead by a wide margin, with S6 a few lags behind, and S7/S3 tied for third place, S4 is in fourth,
S2 is in fifth and S1 dead last. Apparently the majority of my flist or whomever took the poll prefers the latter seasons to the earlier ones. I'm guessing they are mostly Spike fans like myself...because let's face it he's not in the earlier seasons. If you are a Spike fan, you probably won't rank 1-3 as your overall favorite or 1st. The people who tend to put S3 first - I've noticed - aren't Spike fans, but Faith or Xander fans. Poor souls. You really got gypped. Faith hardly has much of an arc.
Angel/David Boreanze fans, I don't feel sorry for, they got an entire series featuring their hero. Plus Bones. Frigging lucky people. While us Spike/James Marsters fans, got barely anything in comparison. I really need to stop becoming enamored of quirky character actors.

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I only know about him through you, so I would imagine you are correct.

I wonder sometimes if I should go back and re-watch BtVS, because I wonder how much some of my opinion on things have been tainted by fanfic...I was never a Bangel or Biley shipper, but did not mind Buffy with Angel in S1/S2-got annoyed with him jerking her around in S3 and though Riley was ok in S4. I did not become Spuffy until S5 (I thought Something Blue was funny, but did not see the Spuffy.) I had been spoiled (on purpose-my own curiosity) about the AR in S6. I did not like it, did think Spike was in the wrong, but also thought he was remorseful for it (tried to do the right thing) and so remained Spuffy. Spuffy is definitely the relationship that I liked best and continue to read via ff, but I wonder if I have a little bit of an idealized version of it now...

We are somewhat similar.

Except, I actually went wherever the writers wanted me to go shipwise. I was B/A until it became clear to me that it was dead in the water. I was B/R until it became clear that was dead in the water - which was Into the Woods.
I never forgave Riley for doing that in the manner he did. It was cowardly and immature, and how he came back in As You Were, rubbing it in her face and not giving a damn what had happened to her - made me hate him. What an immature, self-absorbed, egotistical ass. Those two episodes ruined the character for me. After that, I was like, let's not see Riley again.

Regarding the A/R? I was also spoiled for it in S6. Mainly because the people downloading episodes from a satellite feed got Seeing Red before Entropy and felt the need to spoil everyone and include screen-caps. So the internet exploded and the fans acted like whiny five year olds who had just had their best toy taken away from them. I remember wanting to strangle people. You couldn't discuss it rationally with people. You either hated Spike forever and thought he was EVIL! RAPIST! or you were a sick human being and a rapist sympathizer who needed counseling. (Fan does stand for fanatic, which means crazy after all. LOL!) Truth was? He never raped her. Actually he didn't do much more than he'd done in S2, S4,
S5...where he'd lunch himself at her neck, try to sink his teeth in and she'd either kick him off or he'd scream in pain. The only difference is they took away the vampire metaphor, and Spike felt remorse, and didn't try again and left in self-loathing and humilation, thinking he was a worm. How people could not see that blew my mind, but people also can't figure out that "Was S3 your Favorite Season Buffy?" literally means S3 was/is your favorite season of Buffy. LOL! People never fail to bewilder me.

I didn't become Spuffy until Intervention. I didn't become obsessed with it until Once More with Feeling, when the writers shocked me. Because I didn't think they'd go there or do that. I honestly saw the relationship as impossible up until Once More With Feeling...and Smashed. Then I went, whoa.
When I was watching the show live and unspoiled, I found Spike sort of creepy prior his capture in Intervention to be honest. They surprised me. I became an insane Spike fan after that.

Oh, we are very much alike...I so thought Riley was rubbing it in her face in AYW and it made me really dislike him. I also harbor some major resentment for Xander for his little speech in ITW (as well as some other times.)

Yes, the split in how people took the AR still astounds me...particularly the women fans of Spike that blamed Buffy because they felt (IMO) that blaming her made it ok to still like Spike. I am not sure exactly what the writers intended, but like you I felt it was not that much more than what he had done in the past and I also felt like (tip toes around this) that it was not necessarily a conscious decision and when he realized what he almost did; felt remorse.

I was kind of surprised that people seemed to misunderstand the poll. Maybe, some people quickly read it and misunderstood...who knows.

I guess I really saw Spuffy in Out of My Head, then started rooting for them in Intervention, was on the edge of my seat for OMWF because (like you) I did not think they would go there, then in Smashed-Wow! their chemistry just got to me. I also think that is when I discovered the fandom, but did not actually start reading ff until the show was over. I was completely obsessed with them at that point, so I also started watching AtS to see Spike (and secretly hoping Buffy would make an appearance.) I don't think I made it through the whole season though. It just never seemed like Spike to me. It seemed as if he was a completely different character, plus I was not invested in any of the other characters on that show, so it just bored me.

es, the split in how people took the AR still astounds me...particularly the women fans of Spike that blamed Buffy because they felt (IMO) that blaming her made it ok to still like Spike.

The writer's set it up in such a way that this was bound to happen. Because Buffy was using sex with Spike to get high. There was a definite addiction metaphor going on there. And beating him up after-wards, in much the same way Faith as Buffy, beats on Buffy as Faith - she's beating up herself - he's a reflection of the part of herself that she hates. Unfortunately to get there - they did this odd "yes means no bondage/sex bit which leads to accidental rape in soap operas and tv shows" story arc. The problem with that type of story arc...is it can be interpreted as the gal asked for it. He misread her signals. After all, everytime she said no before...also, every time they fought before...granted she was clearly injured this round, in her private bathroom, and had made it clear they were over.. The other problem - was Buffy was as if not more abusive in the relationship as he was...so for a lot of female fans, who had, unfortunately, been in Spike's shoes in a relationship and highly identified with the character...they were pissed with Buffy. People want to make it about gender. But I think it was far more complicated than that. Spike was placed in the feminine role. The person who pitched the AR scene was Marti Noxon who based the scene and the situation on herself - on how she forced herself sexually on an unwilling male partner - after they'd had a similarily abusive relationship. Marti was Spike in her own back-story. So a lot of women identified with Spike not Buffy in the story. Buffy was weirdly in the male role. Which is why that AR scene is incredibly complicated and volatile. You can't read it in black and white tones...even if it is ironically shot in them. You need to apply critical thinking to understand it. Otherwise the whole sequence goes over your head and it did for many fans, the vast majority to this day do not understand what was going on in that scene or in that relationship.

I am not sure exactly what the writers intended, but like you I felt it was not that much more than what he had done in the past and I also felt like (tip toes around this) that it was not necessarily a conscious decision and when he realized what he almost did; felt remorse.

I agree. I don't think he intended to rape her or hurt her. The expression of pure horror on his face states that. And his reaction to it - states it as well. He is horrorified. More so, actually than she is. I think he was desperate when he visited her, she'd been sending off mixed signals, and he was a little insane. Not to mention drunk - he'd been drinking quite a bit. Also, keep in mind, he's a demon. There's no soul. No chip even ...letting him know when he is hurting her.

The intent the writer's had was in part to demonstrate that Spike needed a soul or something to let him know when he was hurting another - a way to feel true empathy for someone. Without he couldn't feel that. But they wanted their cake and eat it too...so they sent mixed signals and mixed metaphors. It's very hard to believe Spike needs a soul to feel empathy when he goes out of his way to save Dawn in Intervention. Or helps the Scoobies all summer fight villains, believing Buffy is dead and never coming back. So why did he stick around and care so deeply for Dawn? The story becomes very muddy at this point and it is no longer clear.

It felt to me like Spike lost control...that he'd been on the verge for quite some time of snapping, and he finally does. He has the equivalent of a nervous breakdown. Kudos to the actor for pulling it off. The performance is so raw and so perfect, it is painful to watch.

That's why I never saw his action in Seeing Red as really rape - there was no clear intent. And like Buffy...I felt more sympathetic towards him. But ...it is a painful scene to watch. Almost unwatchable actually. Every time I see that scene I want to leave the room. And I wonder sometimes if the writers really wanted to hurt the viewers by filming it in that manner. Because it is in my opinion close to unwatchable.

Just read this exchange, and I pretty uch agree on everything. My experience with watching the show is much different from other fans'; I caught up on the whole series, in order, about one episode a day, until I was caught up right before season seven aired. Perhaps as a result of the speed with which the episodes happened, or maybe because my emotional reactions are sometimes pretty delayed, I never got particularly angry at any character. And I never got attached to any readings before the show went and Jossed me (until season seven). As a result, I was actually kind of mystified at first by how many fans hated s6, and why -- and even the very idea that Spike, or Buffy, or Willow, or Xander, or Anya, or Dawn, or Giles (depending on the fan!) would be irredeemable, and could never come back from anything.

I actually liked the AR as a story point. I don't think that it's OOC, personally -- nor do I think it is black and white. But I recognize why so many people have problems with it.

(I have my own thoughts on how Spike's soullessness is consistent with his altruism throughout the season, but this isn't the place for them, I think.)

I wish I still had the links to the SFX interviews that Marti Noxon and David Fury did back in January or February of 2002. As well as the Succubus Club podcast interviews with the writers - those may have given some insight both to the fan rage regarding Marti, and towards S6. Also the lost fights on the spoiler-boards at that time.

The writers were a bit disingenuous with the fans. They'd say one thing online or in an interview but the show would provide the opposite. Which caused confusion. A lot of fans were looking at the series from a heavy Doylist perspective.

This was not helped by the actors comments. SMG for the most part stayed silent. But Nick Brendan and James Marsters didn't. Marsters over-reacted to the AR scene in somewhat the same way many fans did.
And fans, often used his off-the-cuff comments to support their views, not realizing that Marsters didn't watch the entire episode and hadn't seen it when it aired, nor did he remember most of the series. Also he has a tendency to contradict himself much as the writer's did. A purely Doylist analysis of Buffy tends to fall apart...due to the fact that the people who were doing it often were not involved in the final editing, and/or can't remember what they were intending. It's like James Joyce once stated in an interview regarding his work - I have no idea what my intentions were, they kept changing - besides it doesn't matter, its out of my hands once it reaches the public, their interpretation takes over. I once had a lengthy discussion with joe_sweden about this - in which he pointed out that authorial intent was difficult to determine and just one more perspective.

I think to understand what happened, all you have to do is look at Buffyforums and Whedonesque whenever Scott Allie decides to do an interview or the reactions to Bill Willingham and Brian Lynch's interviews. Or to the comic spoilers. It was like that. The fights on whedonesque and Buffyforums regarding the comics? No different.
And the rage against the writers similar.

Oh -- I hope I didn't come across as saying that I don't understand why there is controversy now. I think it's more that at the time, I hadn't gotten a feel for what the controversies were, and I was surprised when I first found out about them. I agree with everything you say here. In a lot of ways, I'm lucky w.r.t. the TV series, seasons 1-6, in that I mostly avoided the contradictory writing and cast interviews. And I'm unlucky in that I'm trying to enjoy the comics as best I can, and the wars going on can be harsh. :)

Oh, not at all.

We still had controversies in S7. You should have see the fights we had over LMTPM and later in Angel S5 over Damage and Destiny.

I think sometimes that fans just like to fight with each other. There's something almost cathartic about fighting with fans...which may explain it.
I don't know. I've never dealt with it well myself. Sorry to say.
I hate to be embarrassed online or off for that matter.

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