(no subject)

[shadowkat]

Alright..taking a bit of time out to admit the latest Mark Watches post amused me.

Highlights:

*BUFFY’S DREAM. WHAT THE FUCK. Oh my god, Faith, I miss you. How is this show going to deal with you? I thought you were dead for sure, and now you’re here, and you’re in a coma, and I just feel bad for you. Why do I have a feeling this dream sequence has some other importance I’m not seeing?

Me: You have no idea. Fan literally rewound that dream five or six times to figure out the clues for the next two seasons - which are all interwoven in that dream. The coming of Dawn, Joyce's death, and finally Buffy's death to save the world.

And if you think the dream sequence in S3 is trippy, just wait until Restless in S4.

Also Dude, seriously, is Fuck your favorite word? It makes your posts difficult to read at work.

Angel: SHUT THE FUCK UP. I am so irritated by you and your constant need for melodrama. First, you don’t want Buffy around. Then you want to help her. Then you don’t want to live. And now you won’t stick around to say goodbye because it’ll be “too painful.” Maybe it’s so painful because you won’t make up your goddamn mind. Can you even imagine the pain you are causing Buffy with this whole back-and-forth routine? No? SO STOP IT.

If Angel's lurking indecisiveness where Buffy is concerned bugs him in Graduation Day, just wait for Pangs and I Will Always Remember You - which are what killed that ship dead for me. For more or less the same reason's Mark is echoing above.

Oh, of course Angel is going to Brood in the fog and smoke before disappearing. Angel was never truly worried about saying goodbye. He just needed to brood one last time.

LOL! Actually, not for the last time. And... Well he never actually does need to say goodbye, because he just keeps popping up, once a season. I think the only season he didn't pop up was S6 - no wait, he did, just off stage. B/A relationship otherwise known as "do I stay or do I go, I can't make up my mind!!!"

Almost makes me want to re-watch the series again.


I think my Buffy poll is finally done. I'll close it Friday night. With 75 participants, S3 is still not much of a favorite, only 11 people list it as a favorite and only 6 as their favorite of all the seasons. S5 is still ahead by a wide margin, with S6 a few lags behind, and S7/S3 tied for third place, S4 is in fourth,
S2 is in fifth and S1 dead last. Apparently the majority of my flist or whomever took the poll prefers the latter seasons to the earlier ones. I'm guessing they are mostly Spike fans like myself...because let's face it he's not in the earlier seasons. If you are a Spike fan, you probably won't rank 1-3 as your overall favorite or 1st. The people who tend to put S3 first - I've noticed - aren't Spike fans, but Faith or Xander fans. Poor souls. You really got gypped. Faith hardly has much of an arc.
Angel/David Boreanze fans, I don't feel sorry for, they got an entire series featuring their hero. Plus Bones. Frigging lucky people. While us Spike/James Marsters fans, got barely anything in comparison. I really need to stop becoming enamored of quirky character actors.

Comments

[shapinglight]

I really need to stop becoming enamored of quirky character actors.

But square jawed leading man types are so dull!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

True. (or Word). But they get all the roles...stupid Hollywood.

Although...we do have Daniel Craig, Christian Bale,
and Robert Downey Jr...who sort of go against that trope..a bit.

[shapinglight]

True, though all three of them have an edgy quality that separates them from your average run of leading men.

Also, Boreanaz fans may have got another series, but don't forget it's one of the dullest shows ever written. (IMO, as I couldn't even get through one episode without almost falling asleep).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Also, Boreanaz fans may have got another series, but don't forget it's one of the dullest shows ever written. (IMO, as I couldn't even get through one episode without almost falling asleep).

LOL! (shhhh...don't tell 20% of my flist they are in lovvvve with that show for some reason that I can't for the life of me figure out).

Completely agree. The only episodes I made it through had Stephen Fry or Ryan O'Neal as guest stars - and focused almost entirely on them.

It's poorly written, predictable, cliche, and the acting is plastic. I do not understand the appeal. But it's doing amazingly well - so well that DB is amongst the highest paid tv actors with $200,000 an episode. Hugh Laurie has him bet at over $500,000 an episode.

[lizziebuffy2008.livejournal.com]

Angel: SHUT THE FUCK UP. I am so irritated by you and your constant need for melodrama. First, you don’t want Buffy around. Then you want to help her. Then you don’t want to live. And now you won’t stick around to say goodbye because it’ll be “too painful.” Maybe it’s so painful because you won’t make up your goddamn mind. Can you even imagine the pain you are causing Buffy with this whole back-and-forth routine? No? SO STOP IT.

I see a Spuffy fan in the making...

If Angel's lurking indecisiveness where Buffy is concerned bugs him in Graduation Day, just wait for Pangs and I Will Always Remember You

He won't see the latter unless he watches AtS, right?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I see a Spuffy fan in the making...

Until S6...he is going to hate Spike in S6, the guy has had too many abusive boyfriends - people who've had abusive bad boyfriends or have had close friends who have had abusive bad boyfriends, hate Spike. Although...they usually love Xander. So, I may be wrong.

He won't see the latter unless he watches AtS, right?

He's decided to watch Ats and Btvs concurrently or one right after the other as people who watched the series live did. With double postings.

[tomomakimou.livejournal.com]

Personally I don't see Mark becoming a Spuffy fan at all. Willow/Tara, Anya/Xander, Angel/Cordy? Absolutely. But not Spuffy. My prediction: he will start disliking Spike when he starts going through the stalker phase in S5.

Also, Mark knows about AR. He doesn't know (I think) when and how it happens, but he knows that the offender was Spike. I'm grateful that he didn't mention about this on his list of “Things Mark Knows About BtVS” in his very first review of Buffy. Though, his decision is totally understandable. Who wants to be spoiled about that, before even being introduced to the character? For sure I didn't (but unfortunately I was spoiled, too).

I feel like he has reservations about Spike character, and if he does, I won't be surprised if it's because of this.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Also, Mark knows about AR. He doesn't know (I think) when and how it happens, but he knows that the offender was Spike.

Really? Oh that explains a lot. It's also a bit disingenuous to state you aren't spoiled, when clearly you are..but let's handwave that. I bet he knows about DarkWillow too. But probably not about Tara.

Also the spoilers on it are disingenuous, because most people don't think about it critically, they just reacte - in the same way I'd reacte to a spider appearing on my desk all of a sudden. Run screaming. Few people online understood or actually saw what happened in that scene or episode. Most jumped to conclusions and the wrong conclusions, saw it as black and white, when it was very ambiguous and very gray. But fan isn't a word I'd associate with critical thinking. ;-)

At any rate, I agree - there's no way Mark is going to like Spike or Spuffy. He'll hate them.
He reactes emotionally and as near as I can tell he doesn't have an analytical bone in his body. He'll reacte to Spike and that episode,Seeing Red the same way I'd reacte to a spider on my desk.

Considering how he reacted to Xander in S1-2, and Xander in the Pack, yep, he's going to hate Spike.

[tomomakimou.livejournal.com]

Really?

Yep. The mods of the site were talking about it in Mark Spoils (it's the site where we are suppose to “contain ourselves". Lol ) and there was a link to the article where he mentioned about it. It was his review on Twilight. I don't know what he was talking about (I never read his reviews other than Buffy), but once he compared Edward (? Or someone else, I'm not sure ...) to Angel and said something along the line of, “But isn't Angel from BtVS worse than him? He tried to rape his girlfriend!”

Imagine the reader's reaction to this.

I wasn't there when it happened so I have no idea how much he had been spoiled that day, but I think it's safe to assume that he's got an eyeful of enthusiastic comments (to say the least)... :p

[lizziebuffy2008.livejournal.com]

I only know about him through you, so I would imagine you are correct.

I wonder sometimes if I should go back and re-watch BtVS, because I wonder how much some of my opinion on things have been tainted by fanfic...I was never a Bangel or Biley shipper, but did not mind Buffy with Angel in S1/S2-got annoyed with him jerking her around in S3 and though Riley was ok in S4. I did not become Spuffy until S5 (I thought Something Blue was funny, but did not see the Spuffy.) I had been spoiled (on purpose-my own curiosity) about the AR in S6. I did not like it, did think Spike was in the wrong, but also thought he was remorseful for it (tried to do the right thing) and so remained Spuffy. Spuffy is definitely the relationship that I liked best and continue to read via ff, but I wonder if I have a little bit of an idealized version of it now...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

We are somewhat similar.

Except, I actually went wherever the writers wanted me to go shipwise. I was B/A until it became clear to me that it was dead in the water. I was B/R until it became clear that was dead in the water - which was Into the Woods.
I never forgave Riley for doing that in the manner he did. It was cowardly and immature, and how he came back in As You Were, rubbing it in her face and not giving a damn what had happened to her - made me hate him. What an immature, self-absorbed, egotistical ass. Those two episodes ruined the character for me. After that, I was like, let's not see Riley again.

Regarding the A/R? I was also spoiled for it in S6. Mainly because the people downloading episodes from a satellite feed got Seeing Red before Entropy and felt the need to spoil everyone and include screen-caps. So the internet exploded and the fans acted like whiny five year olds who had just had their best toy taken away from them. I remember wanting to strangle people. You couldn't discuss it rationally with people. You either hated Spike forever and thought he was EVIL! RAPIST! or you were a sick human being and a rapist sympathizer who needed counseling. (Fan does stand for fanatic, which means crazy after all. LOL!) Truth was? He never raped her. Actually he didn't do much more than he'd done in S2, S4,
S5...where he'd lunch himself at her neck, try to sink his teeth in and she'd either kick him off or he'd scream in pain. The only difference is they took away the vampire metaphor, and Spike felt remorse, and didn't try again and left in self-loathing and humilation, thinking he was a worm. How people could not see that blew my mind, but people also can't figure out that "Was S3 your Favorite Season Buffy?" literally means S3 was/is your favorite season of Buffy. LOL! People never fail to bewilder me.

I didn't become Spuffy until Intervention. I didn't become obsessed with it until Once More with Feeling, when the writers shocked me. Because I didn't think they'd go there or do that. I honestly saw the relationship as impossible up until Once More With Feeling...and Smashed. Then I went, whoa.
When I was watching the show live and unspoiled, I found Spike sort of creepy prior his capture in Intervention to be honest. They surprised me. I became an insane Spike fan after that.

[jaymi-leaf.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree that he'll hate Spike in S6 (and possibly earlier than that) but it'll be interesting if he just piles the hate on or if he picks out the complexities of the situation as the Buffy/Spike relationship, the two-way abuse, the switching of traditional gender roles etc. Hmm.

The only thing that gives me pause on whether he'll hate Spike is that he does tend to be heavily influenced on what his commenters think, even if he doesn't admit this. He's picked up that Spike is a popular character so I wonder how much he'll be expressing his own opinions and how much he'll be tailoring them for the masses (that said, if it's anything like the discussions back in the day on this topic when we were all first time watchers I imagine the comments section is going to get fairly divided).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It depends on how he relates to the fact that Spike is a soulless vampire and the mythology. Because unlike Xander or even Angel, Spike doesn't have a soul. He's supposed to be evil and a villain. This is something a lot of people convienently forgot during S4-S6. We got a guy who is helping others who is soulless. And we've seen what Xander would be without a soul. And Angel. When Spike get's a soul - he's brand new to it and if you think about it, it took Angel 90 years to figure out how to be a good guy with his. Spike sought his out, earned it, and figures it out in six months. LOL! Also, Xander does horrible things according to Mark with a soul...The mythology is actually important.

I've been thinking about that. Also how much he knows classic sci-fi - such as Clockwork Orange or The Prisoner. Can't tell, guessing not so much. I am curious how he will react to Spike getting a chip in his head and being conditioned not to hurt people.

OTOH...he does appear to have a huge trigger where abusive boyfriends are concerned and a lot of people I've met online who had similar triggers hated Spike in s6. But you are right...his commentators may influence him. Unlike most fans - he's doing this as a job, he needs his readers. He toned down the Xander stuff after a bit. And he's careful with Bangle. You have to be careful, because if people stop reading your professional blog - there goes your income.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I know taste and personality is very subjective, but I preferred the earlier seasons of BTVS, which had more modular episodes & plots. S5, particularly the back half, was very Arc heavy. Which, clearly, didn't work for me as well as it did others.

Not that I rewatch a lot of BtVS anymore (when I watch older shows, I'm now more into watching shows I didn't watch the first time around) but it makes it harder for me to rewatch many of the latter season episodes.

Which, suggests I'm more of a fan of procedural than arc heavy style. Kind of odd, I guess. I don't assess the shows I currently watch based on re-watchability (which is something procedurals do better with) and yet that's how I find myself judging seasons as a whole.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It is very subjective in that way. The people who preferred the first three seasons on my flist, I've found generally speaking (there are always exceptions) tend to like the episodic style better (not necessarily procedural) - with things being more neatly wrapped up at the end of each episode and the end of the season.
Definitive beginning, middle and end. And the only seasons that had that definitive feel to them were 1-3 - probably due to David Greenwalt's influence. Greenwalt is more of an episodic television writer, Whedon more serial.

My brother and I discussed this recently and we both realized that we didn't really like the modular plot or episodic style or anthology series. We liked arcs...where the story builds from episode to episode and the series is more like a "novel" for television. Both of us fell in love with Hill Street Blues, BSG, Lost, The Wire, Buffy and Angel and Friday Night Lights. Neither of us had much patience for The X-Files (although we watched it intermittently), Bones, CSI, NCSI, or the others. In fact, I almost didn't watch The Good Wife - because it felt like a legal procedural. But my father loves the episodic format.

I also remember having long discussions with cjl about this back in 2002-2004, he LOVED season 3 - best season, and HATED season 5. LOL!
We'd argue for hours. He gave me S5 as a gift, because someone gave it to him and he didn't want it. But he, like you, preferred the more episodic style, and the earlier seasons worked better..he also loved S4. S5-7 - he had major problems with for much the same reasons (well that and he was a die-hard Xander fan.)

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Yeah. One of the issues, for me, is that I do want discrete events from each episode. And one of the problems with the "arc" segments of S5 & S7 (less so S6) is that many episodes felt like wheel spinning in service of the arc. An early season "anthology" episode might not be strong, but as long as something happens I'll be okay. A weak "arc" episode will feel like "wheel spinning" to me, and I find that far more frustrating.

"The Good Wife" - as an example - has excelled along both tracks. Something relatively interesting is happening in each episode and episodes are also building larger plots. And gets good use out of whichever characters it happens to feature from the ensemble. It's an ideal - a show that demonstrates you don't have to trade off anthology vs. arc but can excel at both.

For me, if a show is going to lack on either dimension - I'll trade the big story for something interesting/challenging/fun now.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And one of the problems with the "arc" segments of S5 & S7 (less so S6) is that many episodes felt like wheel spinning in service of the arc.

This is very true. I had similar issues with both seasons. It was almost as if the writers were thinking, oh, now we have to add something about this or that to further our arc.

Whedon isn't a very good plotter. I had similar issues with Dollhouse and Firefly.

"The Good Wife" - as an example - has excelled along both tracks. Something relatively interesting is happening in each episode and episodes are also building larger plots. And gets good use out of whichever characters it happens to feature from the ensemble. It's an ideal - a show that demonstrates you don't have to trade off anthology vs. arc but can excel at both.

Very true. It handles both well, often using the anthology to strengthen the arc. That's key. Star Trek the Next Generation did that rather well at times. It's amongst the few anthology series that I liked. Doctor Who is another one.

I require something to happen characterwise in each episode, some furthering of their arc, some change in their makeup, something...The anthology/episodic series that lose me are the ones where I feel like the characters are just treading in place. They don't get to evolve or change, their relationship doesn't really change, and they are put in fake jeopardy to boost ratings at the end of each season, but at the beginning of the next season - they are perfectly fine and it's as if nothing happened.

I admittedly have stopped re-watching programs that I've already seen too, no time. Now I only watch programs haven't seen - I have a stack...S4 of Fringe, S1 of House of Lies, S5 of Dexter, S1 of Homeland...too much tv and too little time. ;-)

Truth is I watched Buffy too many times...I know it too well, can't really rewatch it...anymore.

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

I don't think when Graduation first ran anyone had Mark's attitude toward Angel. After all we all knew Angel was leaving, it was just a matter of "how." The excuse "why" he left in the story didn't really matter at the time. And if he didn't like the way Angel left, wait till Mark gets a load of Riley's departure. ;o)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Possibly. I didn't have that attitude towards Angel until I Will Always Remember You and the final cross-over episodes of ATS S1 (Faith arc) and Buffy (Yoko Factor). Up until that point, I actually liked the B/A relationship and knew Angel was leaving and struggling to do so.

IWARY was the episode that changed how I felt about Angel and the B/A relationship.

Online at the time? Fans were splitting a bit at least on ACIN News and individual websites I lurked on. Didn't know fan discussion boards existed until 2002. I only knew about ACIN News site and Harry hated B/A, thought it was silly.
There were a lot of hard-core Xander and B/X shippers on ACIN at that time.

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

The cross-over episodes really had both of them acting badly. It's not surprising your attitude and others' changed then.

I didn't like B/A in season one either. But I moved on. By the end of that season it was clear, B/X was impossible. Joss decided she was too good for him, which is why we had so many scenes of icky jealous behavior from Xander till Angel left. I don't think the Xander character ever really recovered in the minds of the writers. The last hint of B/X in the story was Xander's dream in Restless. It must have been painful for B/X shipper's to see Buffy move on to Riley.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And if he didn't like the way Angel left, wait till Mark gets a load of Riley's departure. ;o)

Oh, he is going to hate Riley.

Actually, the guy's probably a B/F shipper.

Joss decided she was too good for him, which is why we had so many scenes of icky jealous behavior from Xander till Angel left. I don't think the Xander character ever really recovered in the minds of the writers. The last hint of B/X in the story was Xander's dream in Restless.

Ah you haven't read the comics. ;-)

In the comics, Whedon writes an issue where Buffy declares her love for Xander and Xander says, whoops too little too late, I'm in love with your sister Dawn and we're together.

Which was, to be honest, the beginning of the end of my Whedon fandom and my interest in comic books...so the less said about this, the better. ;-)

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I think Mark will dislike Spike because of his abusive relationship with Harmony, stalky behavior in S5 and abusive relationship with Buffy, but he doesn't scare me like the comments below. Those make me shudder.

As a big Xander fan, it's really hard reading the comments in his blog, but Mark's comments are usually decent when it comes to Xander. He's not as angry as the people who comment on his reviews.

My favorite season is a tie between S6 and S2. I love the later seasons, but I enjoy watching the early seasons more. But when it comes to reading fanfic, I prefer reading fics set in the later seasons.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

he doesn't scare me like the comments below. Those make me shudder

You mean below Mark's posts?

My favorite season is a tie between S6 and S2. I love the later seasons, but I enjoy watching the early seasons more. But when it comes to reading fanfic, I prefer reading fics set in the later seasons.

Really? As a massive Xander fan...you love S6 and the latter seasons? Interesting. You're amongst the few that I've met.

I believe you are right regarding Spike, the dude has a big trigger regarding abusive romantic relationships. People who had a massive trigger on that - hated Spike. Also people who shipped Harmony hated Spike.
Xander fans hated Spike. Angel fans hated Spike. I really don't miss the Spike wars...they were exhausting. ;-)

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

You mean below Mark's posts?

Yes.

Really? As a massive Xander fan...you love S6 and the latter seasons? Interesting. You're amongst the few that I've met.

I'm very, very special. :) I simply love the latter part of S6 when there's so much Xander and BOY does he have issues! It's a joy reading Xander fanfic set during the second part of S6 that deal with Xander's issues, anger, pain, that the show sadly didn't tackle well.

Xander fans hated Spike. Angel fans hated Spike. I really don't miss the Spike wars...they were exhausting. ;-)

It sure as hell not fun at all. :D

Right now I'm living the Xander hate war. Spike fans hate Xander. Angel fans hate Xander. Cordelia fans hate Xander. Buffy fans hate Xander. He just never catches a break my poor guy. But I'm used to it by now and learned how to ignore them. Spike fans should just ignore the haters, too. The healthiest way to survive. ;)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Right now I'm living the Xander hate war. Spike fans hate Xander. Angel fans hate Xander. Cordelia fans hate Xander. Buffy fans hate Xander. He just never catches a break my poor guy. But I'm used to it by now and learned how to ignore them. Spike fans should just ignore the haters, too. The healthiest way to survive. ;)

Or just to avoid the communities that hate the character. Easier said then done if on a public board...but avoiding certain threads helps. And ahem, certain posters. ;-)

People were odd about Buffy. They seemed to be expecting the characters to act nice to each other like in 7th Heaven or something, it was a horror soap opera - that's not going to happen. Characters are tortured and nasty to each other in soap operas and horror shows.