(no subject)

[shadowkat]

Alright..taking a bit of time out to admit the latest Mark Watches post amused me.

Highlights:

*BUFFY’S DREAM. WHAT THE FUCK. Oh my god, Faith, I miss you. How is this show going to deal with you? I thought you were dead for sure, and now you’re here, and you’re in a coma, and I just feel bad for you. Why do I have a feeling this dream sequence has some other importance I’m not seeing?

Me: You have no idea. Fan literally rewound that dream five or six times to figure out the clues for the next two seasons - which are all interwoven in that dream. The coming of Dawn, Joyce's death, and finally Buffy's death to save the world.

And if you think the dream sequence in S3 is trippy, just wait until Restless in S4.

Also Dude, seriously, is Fuck your favorite word? It makes your posts difficult to read at work.

Angel: SHUT THE FUCK UP. I am so irritated by you and your constant need for melodrama. First, you don’t want Buffy around. Then you want to help her. Then you don’t want to live. And now you won’t stick around to say goodbye because it’ll be “too painful.” Maybe it’s so painful because you won’t make up your goddamn mind. Can you even imagine the pain you are causing Buffy with this whole back-and-forth routine? No? SO STOP IT.

If Angel's lurking indecisiveness where Buffy is concerned bugs him in Graduation Day, just wait for Pangs and I Will Always Remember You - which are what killed that ship dead for me. For more or less the same reason's Mark is echoing above.

Oh, of course Angel is going to Brood in the fog and smoke before disappearing. Angel was never truly worried about saying goodbye. He just needed to brood one last time.

LOL! Actually, not for the last time. And... Well he never actually does need to say goodbye, because he just keeps popping up, once a season. I think the only season he didn't pop up was S6 - no wait, he did, just off stage. B/A relationship otherwise known as "do I stay or do I go, I can't make up my mind!!!"

Almost makes me want to re-watch the series again.


I think my Buffy poll is finally done. I'll close it Friday night. With 75 participants, S3 is still not much of a favorite, only 11 people list it as a favorite and only 6 as their favorite of all the seasons. S5 is still ahead by a wide margin, with S6 a few lags behind, and S7/S3 tied for third place, S4 is in fourth,
S2 is in fifth and S1 dead last. Apparently the majority of my flist or whomever took the poll prefers the latter seasons to the earlier ones. I'm guessing they are mostly Spike fans like myself...because let's face it he's not in the earlier seasons. If you are a Spike fan, you probably won't rank 1-3 as your overall favorite or 1st. The people who tend to put S3 first - I've noticed - aren't Spike fans, but Faith or Xander fans. Poor souls. You really got gypped. Faith hardly has much of an arc.
Angel/David Boreanze fans, I don't feel sorry for, they got an entire series featuring their hero. Plus Bones. Frigging lucky people. While us Spike/James Marsters fans, got barely anything in comparison. I really need to stop becoming enamored of quirky character actors.

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I see a Spuffy fan in the making...

Until S6...he is going to hate Spike in S6, the guy has had too many abusive boyfriends - people who've had abusive bad boyfriends or have had close friends who have had abusive bad boyfriends, hate Spike. Although...they usually love Xander. So, I may be wrong.

He won't see the latter unless he watches AtS, right?

He's decided to watch Ats and Btvs concurrently or one right after the other as people who watched the series live did. With double postings.

[tomomakimou.livejournal.com]

Personally I don't see Mark becoming a Spuffy fan at all. Willow/Tara, Anya/Xander, Angel/Cordy? Absolutely. But not Spuffy. My prediction: he will start disliking Spike when he starts going through the stalker phase in S5.

Also, Mark knows about AR. He doesn't know (I think) when and how it happens, but he knows that the offender was Spike. I'm grateful that he didn't mention about this on his list of “Things Mark Knows About BtVS” in his very first review of Buffy. Though, his decision is totally understandable. Who wants to be spoiled about that, before even being introduced to the character? For sure I didn't (but unfortunately I was spoiled, too).

I feel like he has reservations about Spike character, and if he does, I won't be surprised if it's because of this.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Also, Mark knows about AR. He doesn't know (I think) when and how it happens, but he knows that the offender was Spike.

Really? Oh that explains a lot. It's also a bit disingenuous to state you aren't spoiled, when clearly you are..but let's handwave that. I bet he knows about DarkWillow too. But probably not about Tara.

Also the spoilers on it are disingenuous, because most people don't think about it critically, they just reacte - in the same way I'd reacte to a spider appearing on my desk all of a sudden. Run screaming. Few people online understood or actually saw what happened in that scene or episode. Most jumped to conclusions and the wrong conclusions, saw it as black and white, when it was very ambiguous and very gray. But fan isn't a word I'd associate with critical thinking. ;-)

At any rate, I agree - there's no way Mark is going to like Spike or Spuffy. He'll hate them.
He reactes emotionally and as near as I can tell he doesn't have an analytical bone in his body. He'll reacte to Spike and that episode,Seeing Red the same way I'd reacte to a spider on my desk.

Considering how he reacted to Xander in S1-2, and Xander in the Pack, yep, he's going to hate Spike.

[tomomakimou.livejournal.com]

Really?

Yep. The mods of the site were talking about it in Mark Spoils (it's the site where we are suppose to “contain ourselves". Lol ) and there was a link to the article where he mentioned about it. It was his review on Twilight. I don't know what he was talking about (I never read his reviews other than Buffy), but once he compared Edward (? Or someone else, I'm not sure ...) to Angel and said something along the line of, “But isn't Angel from BtVS worse than him? He tried to rape his girlfriend!”

Imagine the reader's reaction to this.

I wasn't there when it happened so I have no idea how much he had been spoiled that day, but I think it's safe to assume that he's got an eyeful of enthusiastic comments (to say the least)... :p

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

LOL! Thanks. Yes, I can imagine the reactions. Unfortunately. Bella/Edward shippers have nothing on Bangel. Actually Stephanie Meyer was a Bangel shipper, Bella and Edward were taken directly from Buffy/Angel - which is why Whedon felt the need to make fun of the ship and Twilight in his comic books. Can't say I blame him completely for that...it would urk me too, if I were Whedon.

I'm curious to see how he views Spike. Spike is an ambiguous character who basically flipped the mythology regarding souls and demons upside down.
The whole behavioral conditioning bit, plus William the Bloody Awful Poet,
add to that...Buffy beating him to a pulp in Dead Things does shine a a whole new light on Spike desperately forcing himself on Buffy in a crazed attempt to restart their relationship. The filming of that scene jars the eyes. Because it is an impossible scene to watch without wanting to switch channels, leave the room, or scream at the tv. A lot of people just reacted to what they saw - which Mark seems to do a lot. So I can't really see him applying critical thought to it. Most people didn't. Made it frustrating to discuss online. To this day, I can't help but think the writers wanted to hurt their viewers with that episode.

You can't really look at the AR scene out of context. Which a lot of people did.

[tomomakimou.livejournal.com]

Actually Stephanie Meyer was a Bangel shipper, Bella and Edward were taken directly from Buffy/Angel - which is why Whedon felt the need to make fun of the ship and Twilight in his comic books. Can't say I blame him completely for that...it would urk me too, if I were Whedon.

OMG, really? I didn't know that! Thank you for this piece of trivia. :D

I agreed with everything you said regarding Spike and AR.

It never becomes less difficult to watch that scene, doesn't it? Though, seeing around, it seems like it hit me much less than it did many others. Watching episodes in rapid succession made me easier to engage with the canon more objectively. Speaking from my experiences, our perception is often of the bigger picture rather than of the specific pieces when we watch TV shows on DVD all in one go, whereas watching a show on a weekly basis as it airs, we tend to fixate more on individual elements.

As for me, I loved Spike even more because of what he did post-SR. I wasn't fooled even for a second that Spike left for Africa to get his chip out. The whole picture was laid out in front of me. He owned up to what he did and went out his way to fundamentally change himself. Talking about “flipping the mythology regarding souls and demons upside down”! :D

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Speaking from my experiences, our perception is often of the bigger picture rather than of the specific pieces when we watch TV shows on DVD all in one go, whereas watching a show on a weekly basis as it airs, we tend to fixate more on individual elements.

This is very true. When I watched the Wire, Trueblood, Dexter, Farscape and Fringe via DVD, I reacted to the story very differently those who watched it in weekly installments or live.

Also how spoiled you are makes a difference. I was trying to explain this to another poster, who seemed to get it, but not quite...she/he was very spoiled for the series. Knew everything. But hadn't watched it. But here's the thing - they were spoiled by someone else's perspective. They knew another viewers thoughts on it. How they perceived it. On top of this, they watched episodes out of order. For example they watched Hells Bells before Normal Again. Or Once More with Feeling before Afterlife. They say Bargaining before The Gift.
Seeing Red before Dead Things, As You Were, Normal Again and Entropy.
Seeing episodes out of order...will change the narrative structure.
It will change how you view the tale being told.

When I watched the series live, many fans saw the episode Seeing Red before the episode Entropy. If you see Seeing Red first, a lot of things make no sense. First off - Willow and Tara's reunion is sort of abrupt. Xander's behavior is...odd. And Spike's even more so, it makes no sense why Spike would visit Buffy or Dawn would confront Spike regarding his feelings for Buffy. Entropy is important. You can't watch Buffy the way you would watch the X-Files or Bones, popping in and out, it doesn't work. So of course they'd react violently to Seeing Red - they missed the set-up.

On top of this...at the time, two other things happened. The writers were playing mind-games with their fans. The internet was a brand new toy, as was interaction with fans. Also Whedon hated spoilers and kept hunting ways to keep them from getting out, he wanted to surprise his audience. So...the writers lead the fans to believe that Spike was getting his chip out. They carefully planted spoilers with trustworthy sources. In interviews they discussed at length how Spike was the bad boyfriend, and how fascinating it was that fans saw it differently and didn't think he needed a soul to be good, and clearly they had to fix that, but then maybe not. Marti Noxon - who has no filter, had a tendency to say whatever came to mind. (I seriously think the characters of Anya and Cordy were in part taken from Marti's tendency to say whatever popped into her head.) They also lied to the actor playing Spike and convinced him that the character was getting his chip taken out. It was all part of an elaborate game of chicken with the fans.

A first time watcher such as Mark or yourself, who is watching either by DVD or streaming video...isn't going to have that problem. You can be blissfully unaware of the writer's idiotic interviews and mind-games. And avoid some of the fans who tell you what happened in an episode that they saw out of order and did not understand.

I think perception is highly colored by our environment and how others see things. If for example you watched Seeing Red with a friend who had been raped...you might react to it differently than if you watched it alone.

As for me, I loved Spike even more because of what he did post-SR. I wasn't fooled even for a second that Spike left for Africa to get his chip out. The whole picture was laid out in front of me. He owned up to what he did and went out his way to fundamentally change himself. Talking about “flipping the mythology regarding souls and demons upside down”! :D

Oh, I agree, I felt much the same way. Although at the time - I thought he'd turn human. I loved him even more after SR, because of how he reacted, the horror, the remorse, and what he did afterwards.
It totally flipped the mythology upside down. It also shown an uncomfortable light on Angel...

[tomomakimou.livejournal.com]

Reading your journals really help me understand what being part of the fandom was like back then. :)

Those people who watched the series out of order? I did as well, with the AtS. I watched all 7 seasons of Buffy first before watching any episode of AtS. Come to think of it, this is probably one of the reasons why I feel indifferent towards Faith. In my initial view, she showed up in S3, did a bunch of terrible things, got stabbed and fell into a coma, came back in S4, did a bunch of terrible things & one good thing before disappearing again, came back in S7, somehow all reformed and redeemed. Actually this explains a lot why I don't have emotional attachments with this character. But then again, the character seems to resonate with many people in S3, but not with me. So, I probably wouldn't have been much of a fan even if I did watch her arc properly. :p


All those behind-the-scenes stories make me sad. I feel really bad for JM.... I've heard how hard it was for a method actor like him to do the AR scene, but on top of that, he believed that incident would lead his character down the path of villainy? After all he had been through over the course of five seasons?? Geez, that must have really hurt. :(

All I can say is I'm glad I didn't have to go through all the heartaches in this fandom. (I know how it is, I've been part of one crazy fandom before....*shivers*)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee, I've come to realize that all fandoms are crazy...hence the term "fan" - "fanatic". From a distance I've seen the insanity in the Star Trek, Doctor Who, SPN, Smallville, BSG, and Farscape fandoms. And don't get me started on daytime soap opera fandoms. Heck - I made the mistake last year of tip-toeing my way into the Kim Harrison Rachel Morgan fandom..which...*shudder*.

The people reading the Buffy comics now are experiencing pretty much the same things that happened while the tv series was on.

All those behind-the-scenes stories make me sad. I feel really bad for JM.... I've heard how hard it was for a method actor like him to do the AR scene, but on top of that, he believed that incident would lead his character down the path of villainy? After all he had been through over the course of five seasons?? Geez, that must have really hurt. :(

I think from his Q&A's he would have been happier if Spike had become evil after that scene and got staked. Marsters did not want to do the AR scene. Apparently someone close to him had been raped or he had been, not clear, and it was a trigger. The horror you see on Spike's face was not acting - that was the actor's pure terror in having to do that scene. According to some reports - he almost quit and broke his contract, but Gellar talked him out of it. But I don't know if that's true.

The problem with tv is the actor doesn't know what the writers will do with their characters or where the story will go or their motivations ahead of time. There's no finished script before they take the role,
and when they get the script, it's often an hour or two before they have to do the work. And the script changes. They also would do scenes that never aired. So the actors never knew what their actual arcs were.
Impossible job. And a lot of tv writers are bullies who have little patience for or respect for actors - seeing actors as spoiled brats who get all the attention. They really don't respect the actor's feelings.

We forget working on a set isn't much different than any other job. There's people you hate, bullying bosses, and annoying co-workers. The only difference? You have to kiss them, pretend to have sex or make love to them, and get naked with them. I couldn't do it. But they are paid very well.

[lizziebuffy2008.livejournal.com]

I only know about him through you, so I would imagine you are correct.

I wonder sometimes if I should go back and re-watch BtVS, because I wonder how much some of my opinion on things have been tainted by fanfic...I was never a Bangel or Biley shipper, but did not mind Buffy with Angel in S1/S2-got annoyed with him jerking her around in S3 and though Riley was ok in S4. I did not become Spuffy until S5 (I thought Something Blue was funny, but did not see the Spuffy.) I had been spoiled (on purpose-my own curiosity) about the AR in S6. I did not like it, did think Spike was in the wrong, but also thought he was remorseful for it (tried to do the right thing) and so remained Spuffy. Spuffy is definitely the relationship that I liked best and continue to read via ff, but I wonder if I have a little bit of an idealized version of it now...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

We are somewhat similar.

Except, I actually went wherever the writers wanted me to go shipwise. I was B/A until it became clear to me that it was dead in the water. I was B/R until it became clear that was dead in the water - which was Into the Woods.
I never forgave Riley for doing that in the manner he did. It was cowardly and immature, and how he came back in As You Were, rubbing it in her face and not giving a damn what had happened to her - made me hate him. What an immature, self-absorbed, egotistical ass. Those two episodes ruined the character for me. After that, I was like, let's not see Riley again.

Regarding the A/R? I was also spoiled for it in S6. Mainly because the people downloading episodes from a satellite feed got Seeing Red before Entropy and felt the need to spoil everyone and include screen-caps. So the internet exploded and the fans acted like whiny five year olds who had just had their best toy taken away from them. I remember wanting to strangle people. You couldn't discuss it rationally with people. You either hated Spike forever and thought he was EVIL! RAPIST! or you were a sick human being and a rapist sympathizer who needed counseling. (Fan does stand for fanatic, which means crazy after all. LOL!) Truth was? He never raped her. Actually he didn't do much more than he'd done in S2, S4,
S5...where he'd lunch himself at her neck, try to sink his teeth in and she'd either kick him off or he'd scream in pain. The only difference is they took away the vampire metaphor, and Spike felt remorse, and didn't try again and left in self-loathing and humilation, thinking he was a worm. How people could not see that blew my mind, but people also can't figure out that "Was S3 your Favorite Season Buffy?" literally means S3 was/is your favorite season of Buffy. LOL! People never fail to bewilder me.

I didn't become Spuffy until Intervention. I didn't become obsessed with it until Once More with Feeling, when the writers shocked me. Because I didn't think they'd go there or do that. I honestly saw the relationship as impossible up until Once More With Feeling...and Smashed. Then I went, whoa.
When I was watching the show live and unspoiled, I found Spike sort of creepy prior his capture in Intervention to be honest. They surprised me. I became an insane Spike fan after that.

[lizziebuffy2008.livejournal.com]

Oh, we are very much alike...I so thought Riley was rubbing it in her face in AYW and it made me really dislike him. I also harbor some major resentment for Xander for his little speech in ITW (as well as some other times.)

Yes, the split in how people took the AR still astounds me...particularly the women fans of Spike that blamed Buffy because they felt (IMO) that blaming her made it ok to still like Spike. I am not sure exactly what the writers intended, but like you I felt it was not that much more than what he had done in the past and I also felt like (tip toes around this) that it was not necessarily a conscious decision and when he realized what he almost did; felt remorse.

I was kind of surprised that people seemed to misunderstand the poll. Maybe, some people quickly read it and misunderstood...who knows.

I guess I really saw Spuffy in Out of My Head, then started rooting for them in Intervention, was on the edge of my seat for OMWF because (like you) I did not think they would go there, then in Smashed-Wow! their chemistry just got to me. I also think that is when I discovered the fandom, but did not actually start reading ff until the show was over. I was completely obsessed with them at that point, so I also started watching AtS to see Spike (and secretly hoping Buffy would make an appearance.) I don't think I made it through the whole season though. It just never seemed like Spike to me. It seemed as if he was a completely different character, plus I was not invested in any of the other characters on that show, so it just bored me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

es, the split in how people took the AR still astounds me...particularly the women fans of Spike that blamed Buffy because they felt (IMO) that blaming her made it ok to still like Spike.

The writer's set it up in such a way that this was bound to happen. Because Buffy was using sex with Spike to get high. There was a definite addiction metaphor going on there. And beating him up after-wards, in much the same way Faith as Buffy, beats on Buffy as Faith - she's beating up herself - he's a reflection of the part of herself that she hates. Unfortunately to get there - they did this odd "yes means no bondage/sex bit which leads to accidental rape in soap operas and tv shows" story arc. The problem with that type of story arc...is it can be interpreted as the gal asked for it. He misread her signals. After all, everytime she said no before...also, every time they fought before...granted she was clearly injured this round, in her private bathroom, and had made it clear they were over.. The other problem - was Buffy was as if not more abusive in the relationship as he was...so for a lot of female fans, who had, unfortunately, been in Spike's shoes in a relationship and highly identified with the character...they were pissed with Buffy. People want to make it about gender. But I think it was far more complicated than that. Spike was placed in the feminine role. The person who pitched the AR scene was Marti Noxon who based the scene and the situation on herself - on how she forced herself sexually on an unwilling male partner - after they'd had a similarily abusive relationship. Marti was Spike in her own back-story. So a lot of women identified with Spike not Buffy in the story. Buffy was weirdly in the male role. Which is why that AR scene is incredibly complicated and volatile. You can't read it in black and white tones...even if it is ironically shot in them. You need to apply critical thinking to understand it. Otherwise the whole sequence goes over your head and it did for many fans, the vast majority to this day do not understand what was going on in that scene or in that relationship.

I am not sure exactly what the writers intended, but like you I felt it was not that much more than what he had done in the past and I also felt like (tip toes around this) that it was not necessarily a conscious decision and when he realized what he almost did; felt remorse.

I agree. I don't think he intended to rape her or hurt her. The expression of pure horror on his face states that. And his reaction to it - states it as well. He is horrorified. More so, actually than she is. I think he was desperate when he visited her, she'd been sending off mixed signals, and he was a little insane. Not to mention drunk - he'd been drinking quite a bit. Also, keep in mind, he's a demon. There's no soul. No chip even ...letting him know when he is hurting her.

The intent the writer's had was in part to demonstrate that Spike needed a soul or something to let him know when he was hurting another - a way to feel true empathy for someone. Without he couldn't feel that. But they wanted their cake and eat it too...so they sent mixed signals and mixed metaphors. It's very hard to believe Spike needs a soul to feel empathy when he goes out of his way to save Dawn in Intervention. Or helps the Scoobies all summer fight villains, believing Buffy is dead and never coming back. So why did he stick around and care so deeply for Dawn? The story becomes very muddy at this point and it is no longer clear.

It felt to me like Spike lost control...that he'd been on the verge for quite some time of snapping, and he finally does. He has the equivalent of a nervous breakdown. Kudos to the actor for pulling it off. The performance is so raw and so perfect, it is painful to watch.

That's why I never saw his action in Seeing Red as really rape - there was no clear intent. And like Buffy...I felt more sympathetic towards him. But ...it is a painful scene to watch. Almost unwatchable actually. Every time I see that scene I want to leave the room. And I wonder sometimes if the writers really wanted to hurt the viewers by filming it in that manner. Because it is in my opinion close to unwatchable.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Just read this exchange, and I pretty uch agree on everything. My experience with watching the show is much different from other fans'; I caught up on the whole series, in order, about one episode a day, until I was caught up right before season seven aired. Perhaps as a result of the speed with which the episodes happened, or maybe because my emotional reactions are sometimes pretty delayed, I never got particularly angry at any character. And I never got attached to any readings before the show went and Jossed me (until season seven). As a result, I was actually kind of mystified at first by how many fans hated s6, and why -- and even the very idea that Spike, or Buffy, or Willow, or Xander, or Anya, or Dawn, or Giles (depending on the fan!) would be irredeemable, and could never come back from anything.

I actually liked the AR as a story point. I don't think that it's OOC, personally -- nor do I think it is black and white. But I recognize why so many people have problems with it.

(I have my own thoughts on how Spike's soullessness is consistent with his altruism throughout the season, but this isn't the place for them, I think.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I wish I still had the links to the SFX interviews that Marti Noxon and David Fury did back in January or February of 2002. As well as the Succubus Club podcast interviews with the writers - those may have given some insight both to the fan rage regarding Marti, and towards S6. Also the lost fights on the spoiler-boards at that time.

The writers were a bit disingenuous with the fans. They'd say one thing online or in an interview but the show would provide the opposite. Which caused confusion. A lot of fans were looking at the series from a heavy Doylist perspective.

This was not helped by the actors comments. SMG for the most part stayed silent. But Nick Brendan and James Marsters didn't. Marsters over-reacted to the AR scene in somewhat the same way many fans did.
And fans, often used his off-the-cuff comments to support their views, not realizing that Marsters didn't watch the entire episode and hadn't seen it when it aired, nor did he remember most of the series. Also he has a tendency to contradict himself much as the writer's did. A purely Doylist analysis of Buffy tends to fall apart...due to the fact that the people who were doing it often were not involved in the final editing, and/or can't remember what they were intending. It's like James Joyce once stated in an interview regarding his work - I have no idea what my intentions were, they kept changing - besides it doesn't matter, its out of my hands once it reaches the public, their interpretation takes over. I once had a lengthy discussion with joe_sweden about this - in which he pointed out that authorial intent was difficult to determine and just one more perspective.

I think to understand what happened, all you have to do is look at Buffyforums and Whedonesque whenever Scott Allie decides to do an interview or the reactions to Bill Willingham and Brian Lynch's interviews. Or to the comic spoilers. It was like that. The fights on whedonesque and Buffyforums regarding the comics? No different.
And the rage against the writers similar.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Oh -- I hope I didn't come across as saying that I don't understand why there is controversy now. I think it's more that at the time, I hadn't gotten a feel for what the controversies were, and I was surprised when I first found out about them. I agree with everything you say here. In a lot of ways, I'm lucky w.r.t. the TV series, seasons 1-6, in that I mostly avoided the contradictory writing and cast interviews. And I'm unlucky in that I'm trying to enjoy the comics as best I can, and the wars going on can be harsh. :)

[jaymi-leaf.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree that he'll hate Spike in S6 (and possibly earlier than that) but it'll be interesting if he just piles the hate on or if he picks out the complexities of the situation as the Buffy/Spike relationship, the two-way abuse, the switching of traditional gender roles etc. Hmm.

The only thing that gives me pause on whether he'll hate Spike is that he does tend to be heavily influenced on what his commenters think, even if he doesn't admit this. He's picked up that Spike is a popular character so I wonder how much he'll be expressing his own opinions and how much he'll be tailoring them for the masses (that said, if it's anything like the discussions back in the day on this topic when we were all first time watchers I imagine the comments section is going to get fairly divided).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It depends on how he relates to the fact that Spike is a soulless vampire and the mythology. Because unlike Xander or even Angel, Spike doesn't have a soul. He's supposed to be evil and a villain. This is something a lot of people convienently forgot during S4-S6. We got a guy who is helping others who is soulless. And we've seen what Xander would be without a soul. And Angel. When Spike get's a soul - he's brand new to it and if you think about it, it took Angel 90 years to figure out how to be a good guy with his. Spike sought his out, earned it, and figures it out in six months. LOL! Also, Xander does horrible things according to Mark with a soul...The mythology is actually important.

I've been thinking about that. Also how much he knows classic sci-fi - such as Clockwork Orange or The Prisoner. Can't tell, guessing not so much. I am curious how he will react to Spike getting a chip in his head and being conditioned not to hurt people.

OTOH...he does appear to have a huge trigger where abusive boyfriends are concerned and a lot of people I've met online who had similar triggers hated Spike in s6. But you are right...his commentators may influence him. Unlike most fans - he's doing this as a job, he needs his readers. He toned down the Xander stuff after a bit. And he's careful with Bangle. You have to be careful, because if people stop reading your professional blog - there goes your income.

[jaymi-leaf.livejournal.com]

My (needlessly specific) prediction is that Mark will love Spike in S4, be confused by him and possibly dislike him at the start of S5, start liking him again by the end of S5/start of S6 then start hating him again from Smashed onwards until perhaps begrudgingly forgiving him in Touched. But we'll see (if I can stand reading for that long)... it's a lot of pressure for a first-time watcher to see things that I and many other viewers didn't pick up on until numerous rewatches. I know that my opinions on my first watch of Seeing Red were heavily coloured by the online drama going on at that time which had weeks to fester as the rest of the season and then the summer had everyone debating on soulled vs soulless, chip vs soul, Angel vs Spike etc. Mark will have the benefit of going from Seeing Red to Beneath You in about two weeks. It took me watching the whole show a few times and reading plenty of meta discussions to really sort out my feelings about SR and what is going on in that episode and with Spike's character - at the time I found it really hard to see a way back for him, I didn't really understand the whole souled/soulless issues of the Buffyverse and there were plenty of fans around at the time who were sure that it was just a black and white issue that I was just plain confused. Now I can see the nuances of the soul issue and see SR as just another step on his journey.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I admittedly only vaguely remember how I actually thought about it back then. It was So long ago. I did, recently, manage to reproduce an online fight I had with people on it. And I did re-read a thread about it in the ATPO archives where we discussed it in depth, most of the people on that board were actually pretty smart about it. But they were also unspoiled and didn't read the writer interviews until after the story was told or put much stock in them. Which helped considerably. The non-spoiler boards were saner than the spoiler boards back then.

I remember reading a lot of fanfic on the topic. Herself_nyc and Wisteria both wrote amazing stories. And like you, I struggled with the online fan drama. A similar situation occurred with LMTP - where fans projected their experiences and views onto other fans and refused to acknowledge there could be an interpretation other than their own. If you liked Spike after Lies, you were evil or deluded. The online Spike Wars were exhausting. I no longer have patience for them. ;-)

The writers didn't help matters. Stating things in interviews that didn't fit what we saw on-screen. Nor did the actors in their interviews and Q&A's. Marsters confused many people.

[tomomakimou.livejournal.com]

A similar situation occurred with LMTP - where fans projected their experiences and views onto other fans and refused to acknowledge there could be an interpretation other than their own.

What was it?
As a late comer, I was also surprised at some of the fandom's reactions. One of them was the controversy surrounding this episode. I've read some discussion threads but it was mostly debates on Team Giles & Wood vs Team Spike & Buffy. What made fandom so angry towards Spike in particular? I could think of a few things that probably made many fans angry but the part where “fans projected their experiences”? I have no idea ....

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Some viewers hated Spike's insulting words to Wood, in essence that "my mother loved me and yours didn't". They also felt that Spike reclaiming Nikki's coat was a form of triumphalism for the fact that "he" murdered her. They considered his comments "that's the way the game is played" to be an inappropriate justification of that murder.

Personally, I *love* LMPTM; it's in my top 10. Needless to say I see it quite differently than the critics.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, this exactly.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

If you want to read a discussion about it at the time, including various reactions, go here:

http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/archives/mar03_p33.html#58

[tomomakimou.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see. Thank you guys!

And thanks for the link.
Ohhh that thread looks very interesting! I bookmarked it and coming back to read it all tomorrow. :-)