Buffy and Religion (sort of), 30 Day Book Meme, 30 Day TV Meme...

[shadowkat]

1. Re-reading my Spike meta...due to a rec/link that rebcake made on another site (we're notified in lj any time someone links to, reposts or rec's our work), I realized something that hadn't occurred to me before now. Seems sort of obvious now. Possibly occurred to me because of a discussion I was having last night with a gal at my church about the mother-goddess mythos in mythology, which I studied in depth and examined in under-grad for both my minor and my major. I had a mythology minor - I like to call it cultural anthropology, but in reality it was a mythology minor.

At any rate...what hit me, was how the writers examined religious tropes and myths in that series.

Spike - mother goddess. He's the son, lover, and sacrificial lamb - which is the male mother goddess trope. Tam Lin is basically a version of that tale. As is the Wicker Man, and Tom Tyron's horror novel Harvest Home. And Guy Gaverial Kay's Wandering Gyre series touches on it. Basically it goes like this - the mother gives birth to the son, he grows up and has sex with the maid, then he's devoured by the crone...so she can give birth to him again. ie. Spring (planting), Summer/Fall (harvest), Winter (death). OR in Buffy - Spike tries to kill his mother, embraces her, changes for her, and sacrifices himself for her and her world.

Angel - father god. Basically old and new Testament or the Judeo Christian mythos. Although more or less the same as the above. Just less sex, more violence. He wants his father's approval. Sacrifices his only son for his God. He sacrifices himself for his God. His son is born by a miracle, then sacrificed, then he sacrifices himself for his only son. All of that is deeply ingrained in Judeo/Christian mythos.

Buffy - seems to be a cultural humanist or athesist. She doesn't appear to believe in God.
And the Gods she is confronted with don't quite hit her as worthy of worship. I think she's the only atheist in the series, with possible exception of maybe Dawn. But I may be wrong.

Anyhow it occurred to me today. Never really hit on it before. Think I'm nuts?



2.Day 02 – A book that you’ve read more than three times

This continues to be excruciatingly Hard. Let me think. I know I've read Night Train to Memphis by Elizabeth Peters more than three times. Although not sure it counts if all you are doing is reading the good parts and ignoring the rest. Which is the same thing I did with Dorothy Dunnette's Checkmate, The Hobbit, Escape to Witch Mountain, various romance novels, sci-fi novels, etc. So pondering. I read James Joyce's Ulysess and William Faulkner's Sound and the Fury more than three times. But that was for my English Lit major. I know I've read Pride and Prejudice several times and Sandition. It's frankly hard to pick one. Or remember for that matter.


Day 03 – Your favorite series
Day 04 – Favorite book of your favorite series
Day 05 – A book that makes you happy
Day 06 – A book that makes you sad
Day 07 – Most underrated book
Day 08 – Most overrated book
Day 09 – A book you thought you wouldn’t like but ended up loving
Day 10 – Favorite classic book
Day 11 – A book you hated
Day 12 – A book you used to love but don’t anymore
Day 13 – Your favorite writer
Day 14 – Favorite book of your favorite writer
Day 15 – Favorite male character
Day 16 – Favorite female character
Day 17 – Favorite quote from your favorite book
Day 18 – A book that disappointed you
Day 19 – Favorite book turned into a movie
Day 20 – Favorite romance book
Day 21 – Favorite book from your childhood
Day 22 – Favorite book you own
Day 23 – A book you wanted to read for a long time but still haven’t
Day 24 – A book that you wish more people have read
Day 25 – A character who you can relate to the most
Day 26 – A book that changed your opinion about something
Day 27 – The most surprising plot twist or ending
Day 28 – Favorite title
Day 29 – A book everyone hated but you liked
Day 30 – Your favorite book of all time


3.Day 05 - A show you hate

This continues to be so much easier than the book meme, it is not even funny. And what it says about me, I do not want to contemplate. I do have a visual memory...so there is that.

Anyhow, show I hate. Easy. The Bachelor and all it's spin-offs such as The Bacherlette, etc. And I do mean all of them. I hate that show. That show makes The Dating Game actually seem somewhat sweet in comparison. It is repugnant on so many levels. Wish it would go away so I don't have to see the cringe-worthy commercials.


Day 06 - Favorite episode of your favorite TV show
Day 07 - Least favorite episode of your favorite TV show
Day 08 - A show everyone should watch
Day 09 - Best scene ever
Day 10 - A show you thought you wouldn't like but ended up loving
Day 11 - A show that disappointed you
Day 12 - An episode you've watched more than 5 times
Day 13 - Favorite childhood show
Day 14 - Favorite male character
Day 15 - Favorite female character
Day 16 - Your guilty pleasure show
Day 17 - Favorite mini series
Day 18 - Favorite title sequence
Day 19 - Best TV show cast
Day 20 - Favorite kiss
Day 21 - Favorite ship
Day 22 - Favorite series finale
Day 23 - Most annoying character
Day 24 - Best quote
Day 25 - A show you plan on watching (old or new)
Day 26 - OMG WTF? Season finale
Day 27 - Best pilot episode
Day 28 - First TV show obsession
Day 29 - Current TV show obsession
Day 30 - Saddest character death.

Comments

[kikimay]

I think that it's such an interesting opinion!
I have to read your meta about Spike (today I didn't have time but I saw the link) And in any case I love the comparison between Buffyverse and mythology or religion. Spike could also be associated with Mythra or Adonis (they both were the son/lover to the goddess mother) And, actually, Buffy's heroic journey into life and relationships could also be associated to Persephone's one - the goddess of Spring and wife of Hades.
Persephone starts her mythical journey when Hades falls in love with her: he's much more experienced than the young Persephone - and, important thing, Persephone is called Kore (Girl) at the beginning of her myth, because she supposed to be "just a girl". She's a goddess, but she doesn't have any special powers or abilities like Artemis or Athena. She's just kinda cute and for some reason Hades falls in love with her and kidnap her. Which can be symbolical of two things: the journey in womanhood but also the journey in depression and mental illness, because Hades - Pluto for the Romans - he's also the god of dark states of mind. Even now, in astrology, when you have Pluto in certain situations or positions, you're supposed to deal with deep periods of melancholy. Kore, the girl, is dragged into this terrible situation that shapes her as a woman, because when she emerges as goddess she belongs to both the underworld and the Earth (And Persephone means queen of both worlds) She basically makes this incredible symbolic journey through pain and death to reborn and to bring with her life and spring. It's also important because Persephone becomes wife of Hades and he loves her very much - they are like one of the few couples in the greek myth who really are happy - but she also takes Dionysius as lover. He's her son/lover. He's the god that sacrifice himself and go in the underworld just because *he loves the world too much*. In some traditions, Dionysius becomes the adopted child of Persephone, in others he's the lover, but there's always this deep bond between them because they both die to reborn much powerful and alive. And a great phylosopher also said that Dionysius and Hades are both husbands of Persephone because they are the same man - they are like two aspects of the same coin. I think it's interesting and I kinda see the analogy with Angel-Buffy-Spike.
Sorry, I'm verbose!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting comparison, and I think there's something to it, though I'm not sure Buffy (or indeed any of the major characters on either show) qualifies as an atheist - I mean, she knows for a fact that gods exist, having punched at least two in the face, so she can hardly claim to not believe in them. Whether she worships any god, or if she believes in any gods that haven't personally tried to kill her, is another matter... I would say Buffy's an existentialist through and through.

I'm thinking of doing the 30 days of books meme, but man, that's hard. And I'm impressed that you've read Ulysses three times - I'm aiming for a re-read this summer, and I'm pretty stoked already.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Don't be that impressed. Read it once for a class on James Joyce, again for a class on James Joyce's Ulysess, then twice more for my thesis. I was comparing Molly Bloom in Ulysess to Caddy Thompson in Sound & The Fury. (I'd fallen in love with Gabriel Garcia Marquez's One Hundred Years of Solitude before that - which borrows heavily from the same style.) I was obsessed with Ulysess in college.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Okay, verbose myself. ;-)

My background is more Celtic mythology than Greek/Roman, so I look at it more from the idea of the Mother being in power. In the Celtic pantheon, there is no Zeus. The Mother rules. Makes sense - it is in Northern Europe, land of the primeval forest, tides, islands, and moon. While the Greek isles and Italy are have less trees and hotter sun.

In the Celtic mythos - sex magic brought a change in seasons. And the underworld was the realm of the mother - the earth. (As it is also in Buffy - with the hellmouth being an aspect of the Goddess).

The Arthurian legends/mythos are in some respects based on this trope.

Greek mythology has a male God being the ruler of the underworld. Women were secondary in Greek and Roman mythos, wives or sisters or mothers - with Zeus or Jupitar in control. But in the mythology of the Celts - Mab or Queen Mab was in control. India oddly similar with Kali, who is both giver of life and devourer.

I'm doing this all by memory, it's been well over 20 years since I studied this stuff in any depth. (1989). So I may be wrong on some of that. Memory tends to be wonky.

[tiny-white-hats.livejournal.com]

That's such an interesting concept! I'll have to admit that I'm far more familiar with Judeo-Christian and traditional Greco-Roman mythology than I am with any culture's concept of the threefold Goddess, but your theory certainly makes sense. BtVS always did a good job with establishing its own take on mythology.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh forgot to add...you are most likely right about Buffy, I think I'm stretching there. It strikes me as odd though that Whedon didn't do an atheist character. I'm thinking...was Echo one in Dollhouse? Can't remember. I'm not sure about Malcolm Reynolds - he seemed to be angry at god, which isn't quite the same thing.

She was definitely existentialist. As too, was Spike...although I think he did worship the mother a bit more than most existentialists would. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The three-fold-goddess appears more in Northern European, African/South American, Native American, and some Asian mythology - or the cultures that were not desert cultures. You see a lot of imagery on the three-fold goddess in Arthurian Legends (the TV show Merlin), and in Fairy Tales as well as gothic horror tales. The Pagan myths are bit different and told differently.

Unfortunately our society has focused far too much on the male dominated mythos of Norse Mythology, Greco-Roman, and Judeo-Christian, ignoring the others.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about Malcolm Reynolds - he seemed to be angry at god, which isn't quite the same thing.

That makes him a (no kidding) maltheist. :)

I would say River is probably an atheist by default, with her attempts to "fix" Book's bible. That's the one that springs to mind in any Whedon series right now - I suppose it's hard to write people who are credibly atheists in series where they regularly come into personal contact with the supernatural. But I think it's notable that Whedon's more heroic characters still approach deities in a rational manner; I mean, the Angel crowd even lock Illyria up in a lab and try to study her. If there are vampires and demons there might be gods too, but they don't get special treatment. (Sartre might say (I don't normally go around quoting Sartre in casual conversation, but I just re-read him) that to an existentialist, the existence or non-existence of a god isn't the point, it's the meaning you assign to it. Or something.)

[kikimay]

You know, that is not totally true.
I mean, Greek culture was completely patriarcal and the women had absolutely no power in that male-centric society. But. There are many proves of matriarcal cults in all the Mediterranean area. For example, if you see the oldest statues of the goddess Artemis you can see another image of the Great Mother; strong, fertile, with eight breasts to feed beasts and men.
The Eleusinian Mysteries - and so the tale of the goddess Persephone and her mother - are the most "feminist" myths in a really patriarcal society. They are totally focused on both goddess - Kore and Demeter - and even if there are male figures the point is still the tale of this young woman and her mother and why they change and why they are so important. Dionysus is also a god loved mostly by women and really feminine/ambiguous.
All these proves of matriacal cult go back to Mycenaean society, that was much more "feminist" than Greek society - completely male-dominated.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure Buffy (or indeed any of the major characters on either show) qualifies as an atheist

The objective, provable existence in the Buffyverse of supernaturally powerful entities called "Gods" does complicate matters, yes. :) On the other hand, when it comes to the more conventional Jewish/Christian/Muslim idea of an omnipotent God, things are less clear:

When Holden Webster asks her if there's "any word" on the existence of God, Buffy shrugs and says "Nothing solid". I'd say that makes her an agnostic, not an atheist. (Weak agnostic, to get technical - she says that the existence of God is not proved, rather than that it's not provable.)

On the other hand, this is after Buffy died and went to Heaven. If she'd actually seen God there, she'd be much more definite in her answer - which says a lot in itself about how the Buffyverse is set up.

The only characters I can think of who are actually shown on screen to believe in the Abrahamic God are Riley (in 'Who Are You?) and Spike (in 'Beneath You'). Willow identifies as Jewish in the early seasons, but is a pagan/Wiccan in the later ones, as is Tara.

On 'Angel' Gunn is apparently a Christian as well; I can't remember the episode but he he mocks Wesley about the difference in their presumed fates after they die - which also suggests Wesley is an open atheist.

All the other main characters never state their religious views either way, leaving them blank slate to project your own ideas onto. (Which, I'm sure, is deliberate on Joss's part. He may be an atheist himself, but he's writing commercial TV shows for a mostly American audience. Unless he has a specific point to make about religion, why anger people needlessly?

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

"Atheist" really is a tricky word to use in a story like this, yeah. Again I'd say both Buffy and Wesley are agnostics/atheists with regards to Jehovah and other non-interventionist gods they haven't been given reason to believe in, but of course that doesn't make them complete agnostics/atheists anymore Captain America is one for not believing in Thor. Neither of them seems to doubt the existence of gods in the sense of "really powerful beings who occasionally stoop to interfere in mortal affairs" when it's proven to them, but that's no reason to believe in anything worshipped as gods (remember the demon passing herself off as a goddess in "Guise Will Be Guise"?). Wesley certainly doesn't seem to challenge that Illyria is a... I'm not sure he ever calls her a god, but he comments on how tiny they look to her, asks her to walk across his swimmingpool travel to other dimensions, etc. And then there's the Powers That Be, who are probably the closest we (don't) see to an omnipotent god, and Wesley doesn't seem to doubt that they exist either.

I always took Gunn's comment more as meaning that Wesley's going to hell because he just messed up and seemingly got them killed, rather than for being an atheist.

Whedon's attitude towards these matters is interesting. He writes (in this case) supernatural stories where superheroes, horror movie monsters and gods are real, but he doesn't handle either the genre or the beings themselves with much respect, and both the story and the characters usually seem to approach them the same way one would, say, any other powerful race of aliens or demons. Note how in Avengers he has the only openly Christian character dismiss the idea of Thor and Loki being gods, even though they're right there flying and shooting thunderbolts... In any Whedon production, the existence (or definition) of gods isn't nearly as relevant as how people act on their beliefs.

Somehow this might lead to a discussion of Kierkegaard and whether faith is even possible with evidence and vice versa, so it's probably for the best that my philosophy studies are way behind me. :)

ETA: Here's a thought: The perhaps strongest result of Whedon's atheism in all of his writings is that belief in God isn't the default. A lot of US media seems to take for granted that people, pretty much from birth, can be divided into Christians, Other Religions, and Those Fallen From Their Natural Faith Through Some Personal Trauma. Buffy, Wesley, etc don't take for granted that God exists or that they must identify with some particular belief - but when gods start actively messing with them personally, they don't just refuse to believe the evidence of their eyes and bruises either.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'd say that Spike is definitely more comfortable with the matriarchal goddess structure and feels like his role is son, lover, knight (sacrifice). Angel, both show and character, is all about the Father.

I'm not sure that Buffy (the character) can easily wear the mantle of the threefold goddess, though. ;-)

[shapinglight]

I certainly don't think you're crazy. The Angel and Spike parallels are great.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

the existence or non-existence of a god isn't the point, it's the meaning you assign to it. Or something.)

Ah, a succinct summary of my own view on the topic. This may explain why I loved Buffy and Angel so much. The story is more existentialist than religious. And Whedon is more interested in exploring the philosophical/psychological meanings behind the mythological religious tropes than the religious ones. Or rather - he's more interested in how the characters relate to sources of power or beings of power. Some characters worship power - which is something Whedon seems to question.
Even in The Avengers he questions the worship of power - Captain America who refuses to treat Loki or Thor as a god to be "worshiped". The key word worship or bow down to, or follow.

It's interesting to analyze Buffy within the context of the television time period in which it aired. You may not be aware of several of the tv series airing opposite or around it at the time, in direct contrast to many of the one's airing now. But in the late 1990s and early 21st Century (1996-2003) - Touched by an Angel was still on, Seventh Heaven,
The West Wing (which talked about God quite a bit). More so than now actually...most tv series now barely reference God, and a couple have atheists on the series or are out-right satirical. The culture has changed a bit since the late 1990s..it's subtle, but I'm noticing it.
Statistically - there are more and more non-religious "young" people in the US and Europe. Few people go to church, and if they do - they go to non-religious or non-demonitional churches.

If Whedon did Buffy today - it may well have been a different series.
Possibly more like Dollhouse or Firefly or the Avengers. I don't know.
I may have liked it less. But the cultural climate has definitely changed in the past ten years - I think for the better in some respects, not so in others.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

In any Whedon production, the existence (or definition) of gods isn't nearly as relevant as how people act on their beliefs.

I think this is very true. Whedon has stated on more than one occasion that he is fascinated with how people use and abuse power and their relationship with power. God or the belief in God - can have a great deal of power. Often belief in God or God is used as an excuse or justification.

Angel uses the PTB to excuse his actions on many occasions. Most recently, in the comics. (although neither of us should probably go there). Certainly with Jasmine - where Angel and crew justified hunting down Fred in the streets of LA for Jasmine, their God. The whole Jasmine arc is a rather neat
philosophical study of blind religious devotion and the meaning we ascribe to God. It is interesting to compare that arc to say S5 Buffy, Glorificus and the monks who worship her and do her bidding, because she is their God.
Or for that matter...the blind monks that worship the First Evil, and their blindness is not just metaphorical but also literal. They are blind literally to everything but her/its will. Interestingly enough all three Gods are female. Although they have male counterparts or agents. Jasmine - uses Connor. Glory - uses Ben. The First Evil uses Malcolm Reynolds Caleb. And in each case - it can be argued that the acts of her agent are far worse and more morally repugnant than the God. As Dawn states to Ben - bring back Glory, she's better than you, at least she's honest.

Same deal with Illyria and her follower - the scientist who tricks Fred into
sniffing Illyria and becoming consumed by her. What the scientist did is in some ways worse than what Illyria did. Illyria had no real control. Just wanted to survive. The scientist got her out of the prison, sent her to himself and unleashed her on Fred - choosing Fred specifically as the casing for his God.

God has never been the problem, how we choose to see or view or what meaning we ascribe to God on the other hand...