(no subject)

[shadowkat]

1. GRRM's post about the characters killed off in on Game of Thrones and the resulting comments amused me greatly.

Martin - regarding the characters killed off on the tv series based on his best-selling books to date: "I didn't realize I'd killed off so many characters. I'm a bloody bastard. But hey, some are still alive (which he proceeds to name and none of whom I recognize), well at least as far as the end of Dance of Dragons. No one knows who will last past that point..no one is safe."

Me: Really not. Although I do wish you'd kill off some of the characters whose names I can't remember and I don't care about. Make it easier to read the books, without feeling like I need a bloody rollerdex.

Commentator: In this world (meaning ours not GRRM's) no one is safe. This is our actual reality.

Me: Which is why we read fiction, to escape from our violent reality. Or not in this particular case where fiction is actually far more violent than reality.

I keep wanting to ask people who tell me it is more realistic to see people killed and tortured on tv and in books than having sex...if they are living in a bloody war zone. What are you a solider? How many people have you seen killed or tortured in reality? In which case, my sympathies. I'm apparently living a privileged life...never seen anyone shot or killed in person, so far. (Well outside of movies, tv shows, and books. In reality? As in - up close and personal? No. I have however seen and been involved with sexual activities. )

Also, I am clearly in the minority on this particular point - but isn't the whole point of fiction to ESCAPE FROM REALITY, not indulge in it? I don't know about you, but I read fiction to escape reality, reality can get a bit overwhelming at times - I need to take frequent breaks from it.

2. In other Game of Thrones news...Mark Gatiss, who you know is my all time favorite writer from Doctor Who and Sherlock (NOT) is joining the writing team at Game of Thrones. Not to fear...it's possible it's just a short-term gig like Espenson's. Why? Don't they enough writers? Can't they find better one's? I'm sure David Fury or Moffat would love to write an episode, heck so would Joss Whedon or Stephen King for that matter...although I'm not sure either is a good fit. [ETA: Apparently he may be acting not writing. So no worries.]

3. Regarding musical theater, which only about 3 people on my flist besides me appear to care a whit about ...have discovered something listening to various soundtracks. Some musicals work off-stage. They have songs that can be listened to - without seeing the musical and live past the musical. Other's not so much.

Next To Normal's soundtrack does not work out of context at all. In fact none of the songs work outside of that musical. It reminds me a little of Kiss of the Spiderwoman in this way.
Great musicals that only work onstage. Avenue Que, Spamalot and Book of Mormon are somewhat similar. Their songs don't quite work out of context.

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Is he writing? I thought he was acting.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Okay, I got the news from you. You tell me. I assumed he was writing.
What role is he playing, if he's acting?

[buffyannotater.livejournal.com]

He's going to be acting on GoT, but they're keeping his role a secret for now. http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/07/17/game-of-thrones-sherlock/

[shapinglight]

I think Mark Gatiss is going to be acting, not writing.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Re: Fiction as an escape from reality - I think that's true, but it's just as true that it can be a reflection of reality, or a way of understanding a particular reality. We need all those things, just not always at the same time.

I think Martin's writing came as a reaction to high fantasy novels that didn't concern themselves with politics or food supply or disease. It was probably quite refreshing at the time. And I do find the tv series refreshing as well - it's actually pretty rare to see established characters get killed either on tv or in the movies. Usually there are some designated victims and the villain and that's it - the hero and his love interest (and it's always a him for the hero and a her for the love interest) survive. Sometimes I like going in with that reassurance, sometimes I get really bored - again it's whatever you're in the mood for.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

No, I would think the whole point of fiction is to create Art. Good art, bad art, but art.

So then the question shifts to, Why is character death such an overdone cliche in Word Art these days? It's become predictable, and causes the art consumer to lose emotional detachment from the work of particular artists.

There, a high-falutin' way to make your point.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

What shows you watchin' Pony? 'Cause every show I watch is like a slaughterhouse to characters. It's gotten predictable at this point to know they won't have any other reason to exit the show except death. Maybe it's a SFF thing?

I was kind of interested in pursuing Game of Thrones next, but now I'm just kinda groaning and thinking, "AgainwhutDeadCharacters?"

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Maybe I was thinking of the big summer movies I've been seeing of late where, while there's mass slaughter of bystanders, no important characters - except the clearly marked sacrificial ones - come to any lasting harm. But really aside from Game of Thrones, it's hard to think of any tv shows I'm watching besides say Hannibal (and I know what I'm getting into there) where I'm worried beloved, non-villain, characters are going to suffer from Sudden Unexpected Death Syndrome.

You should watch Orange is the New Black next! It's good - judging from the first handful of episodes I've seen and the critical acclaim.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I've been watching The Vampire Diaries, where regular ensemble characters are killed off quite a bit. "Lost", good ensemble characters often bit the dust, since it's rather difficult to write them off the island any other way and maintain that sense of "we are trapped here." Criminal Minds killed off a love interest just for Teh Drama last season (the dramatic effect is starting fail 'cause it wears thin after a while). Being Human UK like killed off most of its main cast and replaced them.

Plus, I've been reading literary analysis of the Urban Fantasy genre, that claim that one of the central story elements that drives plots in that genre is maintaining the feeling in the reader that Anyone Can Die. This makes putting the characters in jeopardy genuinely Dramatic, because the reader can't predict the outcome.

Supposedly can't predict. But nowadays maintaining that "feeling in the reader" requires actually killing characters off once in a while to show you mean business, and that in itself is becoming predictable.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I suppose anything can be predictable if done often enough. Though the first rule of drama isn't but should be, you can get a way with anything as long as it's done well.

There is a contract with the audience though - I mean no one wants an Agatha Christie mystery to feature decapitation or blood splatter, and by that measure after a few episodes no one will tune into Game of Thrones expecting a magical unicorn to grant everyone a happy ending. I guess it's finding a way of playing with audience expectations enough to keep them engaged but not enough to make 'em mad.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Well, let's just say then that certain writers who shall remain Joss Whedon put me in the "Make 'em mad" category after a few years.

And I still can't get through season 6 of Lost again because... cool people deaths aren't made up for by purgatory.

I just wish they had a little more imagination about how to (1) up the drama for other characters using something besides grief and (2) writing characters off the show when the actor parts.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Good news.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Definitely acting...see comments above.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Fiction as an escape from reality - I think that's true, but it's just as true that it can be a reflection of reality, or a way of understanding a particular reality. We need all those things, just not always at the same time.

True. Actually I think I said something similar in another post...maybe not, can't remember. At any rate I agree with your statement, but that's not really what I was getting at.

So yes, we are in agreement on that point.

What I was trying to get at, albeit not very well, is the criticism that "I don't buy this because it's NOT real" or "of course a lot of people die, because that's reality!" Too many GRRM fans defend his character deaths based on the claim - "but that's reality or that makes it realistic" so clearly "better than a fantasy or story about war which doesn't have all these deaths..." What I object to is the view or claim that if a fictional work does not represent "our" interpretation of reality or "reflect" how we perceive reality and is therefore not "realistic" to us - it is somehow lacking or not worthy and badly written or drawn or whatever. I'm sorry, but that's poppycock or BS.

I don't mind if you like violence in your art - or prefer to see that reflection of reality, or need it, to each their own. But don't tell me that it's a better work of art or fiction because it's more realistic to you - because while that's a valid complaint about a work of non-fiction, it's not a valid complaint about fiction. It's like complaining that mallard ducks spend too much time in the water and they'd be better birds if they were more like robins.

[ETA: I edited out the sentence that upon re-reading I realized made no sense whatsoever, it's been one of those days. Also I appear to making a lot of stupid typos and errors today. ]

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, as I explained to pony just now above - I didn't write that well. But I think you figured out my point - from your discussions with pony.

The claim that it has to be realistic to be good art is what is annoying me.
For a fantasy to be worthwhile - there must be a lot of deaths, because it's not "realistic"? It's the view that if the reader doesn't find a fictional tale realistic - then it's not good art.

The point of creating art is not to necessarily re-create reality, but to interpret and react to it and sometimes escape from it. I think a lot of people think art is only good if it is a photonegative of their own life or experiences they know or aware of. Re-creations of reality or analysis of reality tend to be non-fiction. Not sure if I wrote that clearly? I've been off all day for some reason...head not on this earth. Work was a bit of a nightmare as a result.

So then the question shifts to, Why is character death such an overdone cliche in Word Art these days? It's become predictable, and causes the art consumer to lose emotional detachment from the work of particular artists.

Sigh. Yes. Although...I think it was back in Shakespear's day as well. Those play-writes loved to kill off characters. I think everyone was killed in Hamlet and Macbeth.

Apparently we go in cycles?

At any rate I agree...there was a particular point in both BSG and LOST that I stopped caring. I thought...okay, are you going to kill off all the characters I like now? Fine, see if I care.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

There's a lot of tv shows that have decided to take a sort of Shakespearean Tragedy approach to drama...verging on the melodramatic. Not sure why.
10-15 years ago, you would have been right, not many tv series killed off their leading characters. And the blockbuster movies don't tend to - movies are actually cheerier than their television counterparts, it used to be the opposite (or was in the 20th Century). Indies still do..depending on the genre.

Here's a list of tv shows that have killed off lead characters in case you're curious:

1. Grey's Anatomy (it likes to kill off one or two every two years)
2. Brothers and Sisters (off now)
3. Criminal Minds
4. I think one of the CSI's did
5. LOST (most of the cast)
6. Dollhouse
7. Being Human UK
8. Game of Thrones
9. Breaking Bad
10. Revenge (although it did bring two back)
11. BSG
12. Six Feet Under
13. True Blood
14. Vampire Diaries
15. Supernatural
16. Arrow
17. Orphan Black
18. NCIS - I think they did....may be wrong
19. Defiance
20. Farscape

I'm sure there's more. Note not all are sci-fantasy. While I get the urge...there's such as thing as over-kill. And I'll admit to enjoying it on occasion ...particularly when they kill characters I don't like, which GRRM so far has been doing to an extent. (I admittedly did not care for a lot of the characters he killed). After a while you are no longer shocked.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that more death=realism is something these writers would actually agree to. I supposed some writers may use it as a "reason" for having frequent character deaths, at which point you lob the objection you made, "What, do you live in a war zone? Since when is frequent death more true to life?"

I think if a writer (who isn't in the war genre) uses that as a reason, they are seriously reaching. So I don't think that is the primary motivation behind using it.

The one time I just killed off a character I had not planned on killing off, I did it for plot reasons, to really tighten the screws on my character who was supposed to be a leader. And I think that, used infrequently, character death can serve as a way to propel the plot forward, motivate characters, and increase drama.

But yes, given the frequency with which SFF and Hollywood writers are using it, it loses all dramatic punch and just sends viewers and readers wandering off to more creative authors.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think there's a happy medium somewhere...in there.

Being Human UK and LOST went in for overkill. Risky, but a bit over the top.
Also I've seen not one but two tv shows now kill off a character by having them hit by a bus. I kid you not a bus.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I give GRRM a pass...because Game of Thrones is about War. It's sort of like Lord of the Rings in that respect (except we don't have any orcs, elves, hobbits, and wizards).

I'm not positive but I think Game of Thrones is based on the WAR of The ROSES - which was a bloody and violent war back in the middle ages.
The guy likes to write about war. (shrugs). And yes, there's a lot of death and torture in war. So yes, realistic in that respect.

But the commentator...was saying it was realistic in respect to our society and our world and they liked it and thought it was great fantasy because it had a lot of deaths and therefore is realistic.

And I'm thinking...first off...you might want to look up the definition of fantasy. And second, hello, Lord of the Rings did that too. As have a lot of other books. And reflection of our reality? Our times? Do you live in a war zone?

Eh...it may just be that I'm somewhat burned out on stories with lots of character deaths. Read too many of them. I really need to stop binge reading.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Actually, the bus thing... I've seen that a lot. Mostly on red shirt type characters, where you just know the writers are having fun playing God, and want everyone to know it.,

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

In one of these two cases it was definitely not a red shirt character thing. The writer had the bus drag a character, so the character was unrecognizable...until someone figured out who he was shortly before he died. It was incredibly dramatic.

Oh I forgot...two more shows that like to kill people off: Torchwood and Doctor Who. Doctor Who's companions do not always have pleasant endings.
The British like to kill off their characters...even more than the Americans do. Not sure why..maybe it's the Shakespeare bit? (Shrugs)