Science Fiction TV Shows...coming to Syfy...and a bit on Firefly

[shadowkat]

Hmmm...Syfy's The Ascension, the Canadian science fiction alternate reality mini-series, isn't that good is it? Watching it now - and it's not holding my interest that well...it's the casting I suspect. And possibly the writing and direction, feels sort of listless.

But..Syfy has some interesting series coming up...the one I really want to see is The Expanse based on award winning the sci-fi mystery series by J.A. Corey and starring Thomas Jane.

Not sure about the reboot of 12 Monkeys as a mini-series, that was a favorite science fiction film of mine and amongst Brad Pitt and Bruce Willis' better roles. Pitt plays the villain in it.

But the mini-series based on Arthur C. Clark's Childhood's End starring Charles Dance (Tywin Lannister) looks interesting.

Sci-fi is hard to pull off well - and to appeal to a wide audience. People are nit-picky when it comes to sci-fi. That was Firefly's problem. They are hoping The Expanse will be like Firefly and Farscape...the description reminds me a little of Bladerunner meets BSG by way of Firefly in Space.

And the next season of Helix could be interesting...it's going the tropical route. But not a huge fan of gross out horror, although anything regarding the CDC and investigation of disease fascinates me...and I just get drawn to it. Major story kink - I'm thinking I may have been a frustrated pathologist in a former life or I just like the puzzle bit. Now if they'd just focus on figuring out the puzzle over the gross-out effects of the disease. Such as the Andromeda Strain and World War Z.

Confession time? I like space operas quite a bit. Actually my favorite sci-fi is non-horror in the same veine or trope as Firefly, Star Wars, Farscape, Battle Star Galatica...and well Bladerunner. Not really a fan of the extremely popular and somewhat more mainstream or universally accepted alien invasion or sci-fi horror trope made popular with series like X-Files, Fringe, Doctor Who, V, Alien, The Thing, Helix, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, etc. Because of the latter - for years I associated science fiction with scarey monsters. (Also as an aside? My paternal grandfather adored science fiction movies, monster movies, and horror novels - much to my grandmother's considerable chagrin. ) But if you happen to be a fan of the X-Files trope - The Hunters based on Whitey Strieber's books might catch your interest. I'll probably pass. Like not a fan of that trope - it's my main issue with Doctor Who actually - it's that trope. When Doctor Who veers away from that trope, I'm happy, but everyone else isn't - because everyone else loves that trope.

Firefly like Farscape - I enjoyed quite a bit, both were serialized space operas. But they had problems finding an audience. Space operas tend to. They aren't episodic, you have to follow them, and well there's that melodramatic element.
You can't just pop in whenever you feel like it. Firefly, in particular, had an uphill battle because for reasons that escape me, Whedon chose to reference 1950s Westerns. I think it may be because he studied them in film school and he was interested in exploring the tropes and subverting them. (I get that, I studied them in school too.) He'd already explored the horror trope, now he wanted to do sci-fi and westerns. But, a lot of sci-fi fans do not like that genre, which isn't exactly known for it's political correctness. (Westerns tend to be racist, sexist, amongst other things.) I honestly think if he'd dumped some of the Western bits, the show would have taken off. Because I know a lot of people who stopped watching it - because of the Western tropes. Now, I liked the Western trope...but I actually like Westerns better than horror science fiction. And Firefly was a combination of two of my favorite genres - Westerns and Sci-Fi. What I struggled with - is Whedon's obsession with the Civil War - from the perspective of the Old South. He'd just read the Killer Angels, and was obsessed with the confederates who fought the union, and why they did. Well...I hate to say this? But there's a reason WWII movies are more popular than Civil War movies. The Civil War was at its heart about slavery. You can't quite get around that. The ideas that intrigued Whedon were about people rebelling against the system or this anonymous corporate structure that wanted them to lock-step or conform. But he could have referenced that in another way, without the Western trope references that jarred many people. I think the show would have succeeded if he'd been a bit more careful with the Western trope.

Then again...

There were a lot of factors that caused that show to fail, I suspect. And, whether it failed ...may be a matter of opinion, since it did result in a movie, and there have been various comic books.

Comments

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Have you read The Expanse series? I blew through those in a few weeks. Good world-building and characters. better yet it's an ongoing series with more books to come.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not yet. I've been flirting with it on Good Reads and Amazon, then you reviewed it. I finally bought the first novel on my kindle today - dirt cheap at $2.99. Not a huge fan of series novels - because then you have to buy all of them...and that can get pricey, but on the other hand - it does help with that struggle to figure out what to read next.

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

If Wheadon had learned anything from studying westerns, he would have known that the primary successful trope related to the Civil War was the hero who wanted to forget his past and went West to get away from folks like Mal Reynolds from one side or the other who spent their lives dwelling on what happened (and what the hero personally did) in the war. That way the hero could be from the North or the South. The antagonists were always those who made a living preying on their neighbors of whatever political slant.

If he'd studied western movies well, he certainly would have known that the most titanic failure of a western movie of all time (Heaven's Gate)was one that mixed too much politics with shootin' and hard riding. Wheadon's big evil government trope belongs with more modern settings which in terms of that kind of political content most of us seem to have an easier time relating to.

He certainly had no idea that much of his older audience knew tons more of the details of actual western life than he did, making him look foolish every time he dipped into western culture. The fact that the success of TV Buffy led him to the conclusion he could do no wrong didn't help at all.

As much as we liked Joss and his story ideas, success for Firefly as a TV series under his direction just wasn't possible.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I mostly agree.

From what I've read in various interviews, my guess is that Whedon studied the same Western films that I did (we're about the same age and went to college around the same time period - 1980s), which were the Sam Peckinpah 1970s Western Trope, Sergio Leon, and a few of the darker John Ford, Howard Hawks, and possibly Jeremiah Johnson. Those films tend to be a wee bit in favor of the anti-hero or Confederate solider turned outlaw. Except Whedon is no Sergio Leon, Howard Hawks, John Ford or Peckinpah, and well, the Western trope fell out of favor in the 1990s. People keep trying to bring it back again, but unsuccessfully. I think the only successful Westerns in the last decade were by Clint Eastwood.

That said - I agree with you, Whedon's take on Westerns was more reminiscent of the X-Men comics or Star Trek, than it was Star Wars and Peckinpah. Lucas did a better job of referencing them - but he also had Lawrence Kasadan as his screenwriter and Kasdan got Westerns (see Silverado). Also he melded it with WWII movies.

He certainly had no idea that much of his older audience knew tons more of the details of actual western life than he did, making him look foolish every time he dipped into western culture. The fact that the success of TV Buffy led him to the conclusion he could do no wrong didn't help at all.

Yeah, I think this may be a genre thing. Buffy played loose and fast with historical detail, language, so on - but it was teen gothic horror genre, as long as they were somewhat consistent with their metaphors, the rules regarding vampires and monsters, people didn't really care all that much. It was supposed to be campy and tongue in cheek - so
the fans handwaved a lot of the historical errors. Same deal with Angel, and to a degree Marvel Agents of Shield (which is comic book/superhero tropes - fans tend, for the most part, give a bit of leniency.)

But the Western/Sci-Fi genres...you do sort of have to be somewhat accurate on the details particularly if you are building an alternate universe or world. And Whedon...from what I've seen to date, is a wee bit lazy when it comes to the details of his world, he wants to cut to the chase or the fun stuff. (I totally understand that - but you can't do it that with sci-fi or westerns or historical fiction for that matter and be successful...)

Have you seen Defiance? It's sort of a Western/Sci-Fi Blend - except it does a better job with the details and world-building. And is a good example of how it can be pulled off effectively.

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

I watched the first year of Defiance and enjoyed it quite a bit. This last summer (after the first few episodes) the producers seemed to be insistent that in addition to watching all the commercials (which I thought was perfectly reasonable) that everyone should be paying to watch it either through pay TV or paying through the internet. That I don't need.

Defiance has a hint of western flavor, but doesn't (as far as I saw) go to the lengths to recreate a common western-movie-themed culture like Firefly did. If Firefly had been closer to the movie Serenity in that respect it might have had at least the success Defiance has had.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Man, that's just dead on right about Firefly. That's exactly why I refused to watch it once I realized how he'd imported that offensive trope.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think Firefly and to a degree Dollhouse had the same problem - Whedon chose to play around with a highly offensive trope, which alienated roughly half of his core Buffy/Angel audience.

In Firefly - it was the Civil War/Gone with the Wind/Western Trope...and in Dollhouse it was the Whore/Sexual Violence/Rape trope. I've seen others play around with similar tropes and subvert them, but they did it more subtly and with a bit finesse, and even they had issues.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

At least with Dollhouse I got to see that Whedon was subverting that trope (that became clear in Man in the Street). I still wasn't wild about using it at all, but at least he recognized the issue.

With Firefly, it never did become clear, not even in Serenity.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well to be fair, Dollhouse did have more episodes and a bit more time. Also I think he'd already played with the trope in Buffy...

But, I know a lot of people who could not watch Dollhouse and hate that show and never saw the subversion...so...

(shrugs)

I did. But I'm not a concrete thinker. I also saw what he was trying to do in Firefly...but again I tend to think metaphorically and not concretely.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Fair enough, and maybe I did give up too soon on Firefly. However, the fact that I saw no "subversion" in Serenity confirmed me in my attitude. I freely confess I may have missed stuff.

As for Dollhouse, yeah I know of people who couldn't watch at all. I get that. I did watch all 26 episodes and I can't say it's a great show, but at least the first season was somewhat interesting once you got past the fact that all the dolls were getting raped repeatedly. Small detail.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

once you got past the fact that all the dolls were getting raped repeatedly. Small detail.

LOL! Considering how people reacted to Seeing Red...yep...small detail.

However, the fact that I saw no "subversion" in Serenity confirmed me in my attitude.

Yeah, I can't say I saw a heck of a lot of subversion in Serenity either.
It seemed pretty straight-forward to me - corporate organizations bad, individuals good. Felt very Ayn Randian...which I'm not certain he was going for.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

The fan base for Firefly seemed to take the trope as the truth. At least, that's how I read the Browncoats. It's like the people who glorify Jesse James, who was a die-hard Confederate who robbed exclusively Northern banks as a way to continue the Civil War. I don't find that encouraging.

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

That's a good way to put it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'd have to agree...

My issues with Firefly were somewhat similar to my issues with Ayn Rand's Fountainhead.

Also...yes, I noticed similar issue with the Angel fandom - who didn't seem to see that Angel was meant to be an anti-hero. Disturbing. Whedon was going for a Sam Peckinpah Wild Bunch deal in both, but unfortunately, unlike Peckinpah, romancing the Wild Bunch more than he should.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I honestly think if he'd dumped some of the Western bits, the show would have taken off. Because I know a lot of people who stopped watching it - because of the Western tropes.

Yep, that's why I struggled to get into Firefly. I wasn't prepared for just how literal the Western theme would be, it felt like an odd mix with a space show

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I knew when I saw the first handful of episodes and came on online - that he'd managed to alienate over two thirds of the fandom. Some savvy network head should have told him to get rid of the Western stuff or downplay it. Maybe they did and he ignored them, I don't know.

[rose-griffes.livejournal.com]

Childhood's End adapted for TV? Interesting. I had an absolute obsession with that book when I was a teen, and I don't have any idea what it was about it that resonated so strongly for me. (I really should reread it and see if I can figure that out, because even though I read it more than once, the details are all quite fuzzy now.)