Re-Thinking Wes and Spike on ATS 5.7
Nov. 15th, 2003 01:51 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatJust re-watched ATS 5.7 and whoa is this episode soaked to the seams with subtext. Lots going on in the background. After re-watching, I realized a few things I hadn't noticed before. (Emphasis on "I", I know others probably noticed it, ;-) )
Up until now I never saw the characters of Wes and Spike as having anything in common. Spike/Giles? Yes. Wes/Angel? Yep. Spike/Wes? Nope. Then I read the ATPO board, and with those comments in mind, went back and watched. I particularly payed close attention to scenes that contained Spike and Wes.
Silly me. Of all the characters - Wes and Spike are probably the "most" alike.
Why? Several things...
1. When Spike first meets Roger Wyndam-Pryce, he states a very interesting line: "I thought Wes was grown in the greenhouse where they grow dandies"
Interesting comment. Think back to Fool For Love and Lies My PArents Told Me's flashbacks. Spike is described as a "dandy" and a "sissy". Wes in early S3 BTVS, Spin The Bottle, and in S5 5.7 - is described as "dandy" and "sissy". The fact Spike uses it - is ironic to say the least - since people once used it to define Spike.
2. When Roger tells Fred that Wes used to be head boy - the camera swings over to Spike who is busy trying to touch stuff in the lab cabinet. Spike pauses at Roger's comment, his eyebrows lift and he stares at Wes, almost as if he's looking at him in a new way.
Go back to Fool For Love again - if you've ever read Harry Potter, how William is treated in FFL is very similar to how PErcy is treated in Harry, with disdain and tolerance. You get the feeling Wes was treated the same way - both by Roger's comments, the reactions of the Watcher's to him in Sanctuary, Giles' treatment of him in S3 BTVS and finally Wes' comment to Angel at the end of the episode.
3. Both Wes and Spike demonstrate they'd do anything to save the girl - in this case Fred.
On top of this - both have a tendency to carry torches for women but it's never fully returned.
Fred doesn't appear to see or return Wes' affections, any more than Buffy returned Spike's.
Then again - we aren't entirely sure. Also both
got into very twisted relationships with women:
Wes/Justine, Wes/Lilah and Spike/Dru, Spike/Buffy.
What's interesting about all of this is how the writers a) emphasize it in the episode in what appears to be jokes and b) how Spike and Wes are inter-acting, subtly interacting.
In Tale - we have Spike showing up and Wes sensing him and stating something very odd:"I didn't know you could read....(whatever language that was)"
Spike denies knowing it and asks about the Shanshu.
The two men circle each other in their dialogue.
Does Wes sense that Spike may know more than he lets on? Not sure. Not even sure if Spike does.
Until the head boy line in Lineage - which Spike feels the need to use at a later date - except I'm not so sure Spike is making fun of Wes in this scene, he appears upon re-watching to be making fun of Angel's father attitude - a hunch that is backed up by his snarky comment to Angel - "do you want me to type up my head boy report?" Basically he seems to be stating what Wes may wish to state to Angel and Roger both - "why do I have to report to you? As if you are my boss? My father?" And at the same time he's making fun of Wes' brown-nosing or desire to get both father figures (Angel/Roger) approval.
Later, in Lineage - Spike makes a point of telling Wes about killing his mother, Wes' reaction to Spike is somewhat different than it is to Angel.
To Angel - he says - not the same thing. To Spike, he says "I appreciate the effort...and halts him".
He's creeped out yet suprised and appreciative at the same time. Not quite the reaction I'd have predicted.
So I started wondering about a few things...what are the roles here? How are the characters relating?
Other scenes that struck me as interesting on second viewing:
Spike sees Gunn held by the ninja, screams out: "Gunn" and runs to him, Gunn responds: "Spike"
Spike looks in Gunn's eyes, assuring him to not talk then knocks out the guy behind him. The interaction is one between two people who have become friendly on some level - who seem to care.
This scene reminds me of a similar one - where Spike attempts to help Gunn in Tale but is unable to.
The elevator - when Spike exits the elevator after it stalls. He mentions that something is up with it. The ninjas attack. After he saves Gunn, he mentions it again, stating Eve's stuck in it. Gunn shrugs it off - telling him to go get maintenance.
Spike says - where's maintenaince? Looks confused.
Thinks a moment. And wonders aloud why he even cares about the nasty Eve. I wondered too.
Very interesting scenes. Just as Spike's scene with EVE is interesting - where he is trying to be intimadating, yet loses it when the light's go out.
Causing Eve to give him another odd look. The first odd look she gives him in the lab btw is not because of the robot remark but the fact he managed to knock a beaker off the cabinet. Making me wonder if she knew he could affect reality before? Maybe not. She reacts to it this round. The others shrug it off, because they unlike EVE have watched him do it before. Spike covers what he's doing with a joke about robots.
Then the scene in the elevator where EVE suggests that perhaps the amulet was meant for Spike and Angel was used as delivery boy. In which case - is Roger right - has Angel always been a puppet, without realizing it? If we believe Skip in InsideOut - he seems to be. I don't think he really is a puppet, btw, but I think Angel fears he is - we are in Angel's perspective after all.
It's an odd episode...there's an undercurrent of things going on, that Angel himself isn't noticing.
1. Wes - and his feelings for Fred
2. Fred's avoidance of those feeling
(This in part led to Wes' actions in S3 and S4, and Angel ignored them in those seasons as well. It was Angelus who picked up on it and realized it was an important motivating factor.)
3. Wes' relationship with Lilah
4. Spike's interaction with people
5. Eve - Angel seems to not really notice that she's stalking him all over the place (Spike sort of comments on it. He also comments on how "Angel is buying her act" but he's not.)
6. Angel seems to miss the point that Wes at least in the emotional sense "killed" his own father.
Interesting. Angel gets Wes will make the hard decisions - he's experienced that. But is he so preoccupied by the comparisons to Connor and his own situation, that he fails to get how ruthless Wes can be? And the still unresolved factors that led to it? 1)Angel's condemnation of Wes putting Fred in danger, 2) Fred' continual inability to acknowledge Wes' feelings for her, which must frustrate Wes to no end, 3) Wes' own fear of failure and weakness - of just being a sissy?
This isn't the first time Angel has ignored this.
Heck he does it with Spike - Angel's treatment of Wes' difficulties from S1-onwards is reminiscent of how he treats Spike and Connor.
1) condemnation of Connor, 2) refusal to deal with Connor's unreturned adoration of Cordelia, 3) Connor's fear of weakness of not living up to expectations.
Spike -
1) condemnation of Spike's weaknesses, 2) refusal to acknowledge Spike's love of Dru or Buffy as something that matters, 3) Spike's fear of rejection and not living up to expectations.
Angel-
1) his father's condemnation of him, 2) his father's refusal to acknowledge his desires
3) Angel's fear of failing.
Is Angel doomed to make his own father's mistake over and over and over again with different horrible results?
Up until now I never saw the characters of Wes and Spike as having anything in common. Spike/Giles? Yes. Wes/Angel? Yep. Spike/Wes? Nope. Then I read the ATPO board, and with those comments in mind, went back and watched. I particularly payed close attention to scenes that contained Spike and Wes.
Silly me. Of all the characters - Wes and Spike are probably the "most" alike.
Why? Several things...
1. When Spike first meets Roger Wyndam-Pryce, he states a very interesting line: "I thought Wes was grown in the greenhouse where they grow dandies"
Interesting comment. Think back to Fool For Love and Lies My PArents Told Me's flashbacks. Spike is described as a "dandy" and a "sissy". Wes in early S3 BTVS, Spin The Bottle, and in S5 5.7 - is described as "dandy" and "sissy". The fact Spike uses it - is ironic to say the least - since people once used it to define Spike.
2. When Roger tells Fred that Wes used to be head boy - the camera swings over to Spike who is busy trying to touch stuff in the lab cabinet. Spike pauses at Roger's comment, his eyebrows lift and he stares at Wes, almost as if he's looking at him in a new way.
Go back to Fool For Love again - if you've ever read Harry Potter, how William is treated in FFL is very similar to how PErcy is treated in Harry, with disdain and tolerance. You get the feeling Wes was treated the same way - both by Roger's comments, the reactions of the Watcher's to him in Sanctuary, Giles' treatment of him in S3 BTVS and finally Wes' comment to Angel at the end of the episode.
3. Both Wes and Spike demonstrate they'd do anything to save the girl - in this case Fred.
On top of this - both have a tendency to carry torches for women but it's never fully returned.
Fred doesn't appear to see or return Wes' affections, any more than Buffy returned Spike's.
Then again - we aren't entirely sure. Also both
got into very twisted relationships with women:
Wes/Justine, Wes/Lilah and Spike/Dru, Spike/Buffy.
What's interesting about all of this is how the writers a) emphasize it in the episode in what appears to be jokes and b) how Spike and Wes are inter-acting, subtly interacting.
In Tale - we have Spike showing up and Wes sensing him and stating something very odd:"I didn't know you could read....(whatever language that was)"
Spike denies knowing it and asks about the Shanshu.
The two men circle each other in their dialogue.
Does Wes sense that Spike may know more than he lets on? Not sure. Not even sure if Spike does.
Until the head boy line in Lineage - which Spike feels the need to use at a later date - except I'm not so sure Spike is making fun of Wes in this scene, he appears upon re-watching to be making fun of Angel's father attitude - a hunch that is backed up by his snarky comment to Angel - "do you want me to type up my head boy report?" Basically he seems to be stating what Wes may wish to state to Angel and Roger both - "why do I have to report to you? As if you are my boss? My father?" And at the same time he's making fun of Wes' brown-nosing or desire to get both father figures (Angel/Roger) approval.
Later, in Lineage - Spike makes a point of telling Wes about killing his mother, Wes' reaction to Spike is somewhat different than it is to Angel.
To Angel - he says - not the same thing. To Spike, he says "I appreciate the effort...and halts him".
He's creeped out yet suprised and appreciative at the same time. Not quite the reaction I'd have predicted.
So I started wondering about a few things...what are the roles here? How are the characters relating?
Other scenes that struck me as interesting on second viewing:
Spike sees Gunn held by the ninja, screams out: "Gunn" and runs to him, Gunn responds: "Spike"
Spike looks in Gunn's eyes, assuring him to not talk then knocks out the guy behind him. The interaction is one between two people who have become friendly on some level - who seem to care.
This scene reminds me of a similar one - where Spike attempts to help Gunn in Tale but is unable to.
The elevator - when Spike exits the elevator after it stalls. He mentions that something is up with it. The ninjas attack. After he saves Gunn, he mentions it again, stating Eve's stuck in it. Gunn shrugs it off - telling him to go get maintenance.
Spike says - where's maintenaince? Looks confused.
Thinks a moment. And wonders aloud why he even cares about the nasty Eve. I wondered too.
Very interesting scenes. Just as Spike's scene with EVE is interesting - where he is trying to be intimadating, yet loses it when the light's go out.
Causing Eve to give him another odd look. The first odd look she gives him in the lab btw is not because of the robot remark but the fact he managed to knock a beaker off the cabinet. Making me wonder if she knew he could affect reality before? Maybe not. She reacts to it this round. The others shrug it off, because they unlike EVE have watched him do it before. Spike covers what he's doing with a joke about robots.
Then the scene in the elevator where EVE suggests that perhaps the amulet was meant for Spike and Angel was used as delivery boy. In which case - is Roger right - has Angel always been a puppet, without realizing it? If we believe Skip in InsideOut - he seems to be. I don't think he really is a puppet, btw, but I think Angel fears he is - we are in Angel's perspective after all.
It's an odd episode...there's an undercurrent of things going on, that Angel himself isn't noticing.
1. Wes - and his feelings for Fred
2. Fred's avoidance of those feeling
(This in part led to Wes' actions in S3 and S4, and Angel ignored them in those seasons as well. It was Angelus who picked up on it and realized it was an important motivating factor.)
3. Wes' relationship with Lilah
4. Spike's interaction with people
5. Eve - Angel seems to not really notice that she's stalking him all over the place (Spike sort of comments on it. He also comments on how "Angel is buying her act" but he's not.)
6. Angel seems to miss the point that Wes at least in the emotional sense "killed" his own father.
Interesting. Angel gets Wes will make the hard decisions - he's experienced that. But is he so preoccupied by the comparisons to Connor and his own situation, that he fails to get how ruthless Wes can be? And the still unresolved factors that led to it? 1)Angel's condemnation of Wes putting Fred in danger, 2) Fred' continual inability to acknowledge Wes' feelings for her, which must frustrate Wes to no end, 3) Wes' own fear of failure and weakness - of just being a sissy?
This isn't the first time Angel has ignored this.
Heck he does it with Spike - Angel's treatment of Wes' difficulties from S1-onwards is reminiscent of how he treats Spike and Connor.
1) condemnation of Connor, 2) refusal to deal with Connor's unreturned adoration of Cordelia, 3) Connor's fear of weakness of not living up to expectations.
Spike -
1) condemnation of Spike's weaknesses, 2) refusal to acknowledge Spike's love of Dru or Buffy as something that matters, 3) Spike's fear of rejection and not living up to expectations.
Angel-
1) his father's condemnation of him, 2) his father's refusal to acknowledge his desires
3) Angel's fear of failing.
Is Angel doomed to make his own father's mistake over and over and over again with different horrible results?
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Btw...
Date: 2003-11-16 03:13 pm (UTC)Just email me at: scrollgirl at livejournal dot com
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