(no subject)

[shadowkat]

1. Watched a bit of Kevin Smith/Brad Meltzer Interview on Youtube, which only served to reinforce my belief that the Buffy comics are basically fanfic or crack fanfic, with little connection to the actual series. Apparently when Whedon decided to write the Buffy comics, he sent a bunch of emails to various comic book writers that he admired. They were asked which character they wanted to write for or what spoke to them. Meltzer responded with a plot-outline regarding how he perceived the Buffy verse, and it's mythology and themes, because he's really not much of a character guy, he's a plot guy. Whedon read it, and responded as follows: Cool. I write the beginning and end, you write the middle and we plot it together. Oh and we're going to do an explicit sex scene towards the end, something no one has ever done before, and you are going to write it. [As an aside apparently the explicit sex scene was originally quite graphic, and Meltzer realized it had be toned down or it would cause problems, because hello, porn. But he kept it on his hard-drive so he could wack off to it. Yes, he actually says that.]

Alrighty then. This explains a lot. The creator of the series had lost interest in character driven stories, and was more interested in complicated plot, mythology, and
ahem, porn (because it hasn't been done before? Actually, it has -- he just doesn't read Heavy Metal and Magna comic books. This reminds me of the media's reaction to 50 Shades of Grey --- oh this has never been done before. Yes, it has. Just because you aren't aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do your research.).

Sadly, Whedon's strength was never in his plotting or world-building or for that matter the sex scenes. His strength was in his characters and their emotional plot arcs. He was good at writing character driven stories. When he steps away from that - he sucks. I'm sorry, he does. Take Avenges #2 - which is a mess. While Avengers #1 was more character driven. Or Restless, The Body, Innocence, Hush, Who Are You and the last five minutes of Beneath You vs. Chosen, Lessons, the entire plot of S7.

2. Game of Thrones is definitely more violent than the books upon which it is based, which I didn't think was possible. But tighter. They don't wander around as much. Also, I guess they don't really need Lady Stoneheart when they have a million zombies and wight walkers.

Loving the scenes with Tyrion and Danys. Although I'm feeling sorry for Jorah, who I rather liked.

3. In other pop culture news, EL James gets eviscerated by Twitter followers - so much for the whole idea of talking to one's fans. Seriously Twitter can be nasty, people don't have to use their full names and can insult with sound bites.

Apparently, James' insane marketing skills hit a brick wall?

Is it wrong to feel an odd sort of Schaendfreudism reading about this? Possibly. But oh well, some of those tweet made me laugh, and yes, I can't say I disagree with them. Although bashing James and 50 Shades is bit like bashing jello against a wall.

Comments

[liliaeth]

I have to admit, I really don't like the way EL James was treated. Because it's always female writers who get torn down like this, whereas male writers who are just as bad, or worse, are usually ignored.

[velvetwhip.livejournal.com]

I have to agree. I may not be a fan of hers, but I certainly see the appalling bias. I'm tired of women being fair game.


Gabrielle

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well, as John Oliver recently put it...

Why the Internet is a Horrible Place for Women (http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/22/8822691/john-oliver-revenge-porn-online-abuse-women).

That said, guys do get attacked. Brad Meltzer has. I've seen Jim Butcher and GRR Martin reamed by fans. And there's a hate thread on Good Reads directed at John Green.

James' is being attacked mainly by women, not men.

But you aren't wrong...look at the Sad/Rabid Puppy debacle - where a leading editor of a sci-fantasy imprint was almost fired because she made the mistake of denouncing the Sad/Rabid Puppies (who are mainly guys).

It's a prevalent problem.

Regarding James? The woman is worth 58 M. And she seemed to survive - her book sold over 1 million copies prior to release, and the first film made 500 million world-wide. She has an entire franchise set up around 50 Shades, includes romantic getaways, complete with ties, whips, and wine. And music to set the mood.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

re the 'climax' of season 8, dear god the above quote explains a hell of a lot doesn't it! God I still can't wipe the memory of that rubbish out of my head.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No, neither can I. What blows my mind is well, the fact that it was even more explicit and these guys saved it to wack off too...I mean, really? (I honestly didn't think Jeanty's art was that good. Sort of My Little Poney cartoonish... so, ewww.)

Also, the only time Meltzer actually talked on the phone to Whedon was to discuss the explicit sex scene -- because he wasn't going to trust an email. (Can't say I blame him. If I were told by Whedon to do an explicit sex scene that showed everything in that comic, I'd pick up the phone too.)

[shapinglight]

'Wacks off to it?' He seriously said that.

Eww! Not only because it's a crude, awful thing to say, but also because if anyone can get off on Jeanty's horrible art in that scene there must be something wrong with them.

Good to have it stated explicitly though why season 8 is so terrible.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, he seriously says it - or something to that effect. I did a double take, and rewound. Kevin Smith's eyes bulged when he did.

And agreed. Thought the same thing. I mean, I didn't think Jeanty's art was all that good. Reminded me a bit too much of My Little Pony, except ahem, with sex...so, ewww is right!

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Meltzer realized it had be toned down or it would cause problems, because hello, porn.

As opposed to the consent issues. As much as I don't want to see it, I think if you're going to do it, do it. It's fuck not f$@!, you know? Meh.

They've admitted as much before, I think. It's just Joss's eye wandered and he let his editor finish it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I don't know, from the conversation, it sounded like Whedon was involved. It's the only time they spoke on the phone. Because Meltzer wasn't going to just trust an email. (Oh that also explains a lot -- apparently the writing discussions were all by email.)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Oh, they talked about it. I meant he let Allie write the final arc after the Twilight one, so he never really finished it. I think I remember a bunch of the other writers basically saying they didn't know how it was going to end. I guess that would explain why roughly half of the issues have nothing to do with the plot.

IIRC, Jeanty said 34 was actually the first issue written and the whole in space/explicit thing was Joss's idea. I think it's the first time Meltzer admitted he doesn't care much about characterization, though it was obvious.

[elisi]

But he kept it on his hard-drive so he could wack off to it. Yes, he actually says that.
I know some [male] readers have talked about hot that scene is, and I just... What is wrong with people?

[papricasantiago.pip.verisignlabs.com (from livejournal.com)]

Interesting. Could you provide some examples? Links?

[elisi]

Sadly not. And it'd be from a few years ago, back when the issues came out. And not from around here, it was probably on message boards, so I only got the information second hand.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thought much the same thing. (I mean the art reminded me a bit too much of My Little Poney or the Archie Cartoons...so, for me, ewww.)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Every now and then I wonder if I was unfair to Season 8, if it really was as bad as I thought at the time.

Thanks for reassuring me I wasn't.

Oh and we're going to do an explicit sex scene towards the end, something no one has ever done before

Oh sweet summer child. Nobody's drawn explicit sex before. Uh-huh. Riiiiight. Not like there are fucking cave paintings of it or anything...

[elisi]

I have just spent far too long looking for a gif of Buffy saying 'Oh my god are you twelve?'

So consider it posted, please.

ETA: Minor epiphany - Buffy s8 is the story that is WORSE than Fifty Shades of Grey. At least Fifty Shades is upfront about the porn.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

ETA: Minor epiphany - Buffy s8 is the story that is WORSE than Fifty Shades of Grey. At least Fifty Shades is upfront about the porn.

Having actually read both - I wholeheartedly agree. Both are fan-ficy or crack-fic. But, I actually sort of enjoyed 50 Shades of Grey - it was hilarious in places (still convinced it may be an unintentional satire).

But I did not enjoy the tail end of Buffy S8 and that issue in particular. I found it offensive and sexist. If it was meant to be satire -- I don't think it worked. And oh dear, I could have lived without seeing Jeanty attempt to draw explicit sex scenes with a children's cartoon style. The fact that he did an even more explicit version...eww. I'm glad they toned it done.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have to admit that I wonder the same thing occasionally, then I watched this interview...and thought, oh okay, I wasn't wrong.

Oh sweet summer child. Nobody's drawn explicit sex before. Uh-huh. Riiiiight. Not like there are fucking cave paintings of it or anything...

Exactly. Although maybe they haven't quite done it in that style before? (At least I don't think My Little Pony had any sex in it?)

It blew my mind that the only time they spoke outside of email was to discuss the sex scene. And Whedon made a point of wanting to do it - because he felt it would break boundaries and be something no one had done. To actually show it, not refer to it.

Seriously, Whedon? Everything has been done before.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I'd find it hard to believe he said that if not for him saying the same thing about the abortion storyline.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

As I've said before, one of the first things that Whedon did to really disappoint me was his fawning introduction to the book version of Meltzer's notoriously misogynistic and nihilistic DC Universe story Identity Crisis.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Chris Sims of ComicsAlliance called the series "the comic that ruined comics." Sims' colleague, Matt D. Wilson, did not concur with that exact assessment, but felt that the miniseries did a disservice to its protagonists, saying, "every hero comes out of Identity Crisis looking like a jerk, a victim or a pariah."

Looks like Meltzer is two for two...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I can't say I liked Identity Crisis - I read it in the comic book store and thought, okay he's trying to turn the DC comics into noir mystery novel and doing a crappy job of it. Frank Miller was better at it.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I downloaded it to read it as I don't like crapping on something I haven't read, but ended up deleting it. It sounds exactly like S8, where characterization is thrown away for the plot--not even a good plot.

Moreoever, it sounds just like comments levied at S8: Trying to be Watchmen. What Whedon and Meltzer don't seem to understand is that Moore and DC were smart enough to realize they shouldn't use established characters for such a story. They want the story but are too lazy to do the world-building for it, so you get basically AU fanfic. Which, OK. But admit that's what it is going in and stop calling it canon.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was pretty much my take on S8 and Identity Crisis as well. It's a problem with the comic book medium, too often you end up with what amounts to crack fanfic. The daytime soap opera medium is somewhat similar in that regard. Any time you have a long running serial with multiple writers jumping in and out of it, you'll run into lazy writing. The writers grab the characters, don't really bother much with research, and basically write whatever they think works.

Used to drive me nuts with the X-men franchise. They'd bring in a new writer, the new writer would write the characters doing bizarre things, and I'd think okay, wait, what is this? What happened to the character arcs? Did you just throw them out the window to service some insane plot idea? Did we suddenly jump into another comic book universe? I think Magneto was ret-conned about 50 times. He'd be redeemed. He'd be eviiil. He'd be redeemed. He'd be Evvvvil. It depended on the writer and what plot he was into.

Frank Moore did a better job with Batman, he just wrote his own version - but kept to the core of the series. His series is sort of outside the main series, and should be read separately.

Agreed on Alan Moore - who was creative enough to actually come up with his own world and characters, and used them to comment on the superhero trope in such a way without throwing the trope out the window or the characters within it. If you want to critique the trope - it's actually better to do it with your own story than using someone else's.

To this day, I'm not sure if Whedon and Meltzer meant to comment on the trope or satirize it. I think maybe Whedon might have, but I didn't get that from Meltzer.
He seems to be more plot oriented, doesn't care much about character, and doesn't appear to have much to say. I think he just wants to write fun thrillers that entertain, which is okay. Just wish he'd stuck to the DC verse and left the Whedonverse alone. Not that it matters, since I basically decided to ignore the comics. Let's face it they are obviously AU fanfic, with little to no connection to the actual series outside of Whedon.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Any time you have a long running serial with multiple writers jumping in and out of it, you'll run into lazy writing.

I sometimes wonder if Joss's comic history is why he thought he could do the comics, as comics fans tend to be accepting of ignoring previous story. I just can't wrap my brain around the idea that he thought he could send Angel back to IDW after S8 as though nothing happened. From what I've read before, it was his insistence that Twilight had to be Angel, not Meltzer. Buffy is genre, though. Genre fans really care about that stuff. He said before the comics were more for comics fans than Buffy fans, so maybe that explains it. It seems as though it's a common problem for him when continuing stories. Alien 4, Serenity, the comics and the kerfluffle in the Spring over Black Widow and his comments about AoS not being canon to MCU.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Buffy is genre, though. Genre fans really care about that stuff. He said before the comics were more for comics fans than Buffy fans, so maybe that explains it.

Eh, I'm not sure this is true. Genre fans tend to be rather forgiving as long as you hit their specific story kinks. That's why genre gets such a bad rap. [Example? Arthur Conan Doyle killed off Holmes. Fans got upset. He brought him back to life. Yay team.
Non-genre fans rolled their eyes, seriously, he survived that fall?]

It may be more of a long-running serial thing. Very few long-running serials can get past the five year mark, without jumping the proverbial shark or losing track of their character's arc. Doesn't matter what medium the serial is in - after five years...or five books ...or three films...things start to go wonky. I think it may be due to writer burn out.

I'd say it was category specific, and to a degree it is, genre serials tend to go wonky earlier than non-genre, or so I've found. Not sure why that is, may be due to the caliber of the writing staff. Genre unfortunately attracts a lot of crappy writers. But, there are non-genre serials that went on too long and sort jumped the shark in the process.

Buffy let's face it probably should have ended with S5. Although I did love S6 and S7, and we wouldn't know each other if it weren't for S6 and S7. I don't think it should have switched over to the comic medium...because I think the writers were clearly done with it after S7. They'd run out of ideas and had to some extent lost their feel for the characters. (ie. the characters stopped talking to them.)

I think regardless of the medium, it would have gone off-kilter. If it hadn't been genre, it would not have jumped mediums nor gone off-kilter quite as quickly as it did.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

fans tend to be rather forgiving as long as you hit their specific story kinks.

Oh, definitely, but I think an important factor there is general audience vs specific fans. The general audience typically wants things to make sense. Take S8, for example. 140K readers dropped quickly for a comic run even without taking shipping into it, most scratching their heads as to what it was supposed to be. I think most fans will accept what is happening as long as its explained.

because I think the writers were clearly done with it after S7.

I think this is true and what you say about S5, I think is true, but I'd confine it to Joss. I think he was done after S5, but the problem is he didn't walk away. Lots of people lament the Marti years, but after comments and interviews over the years, it sounds like the real problem was Joss. Sure, she was showrunner but it sounds like she got all the responsibility (checking/editing dailies, making sure the episodes came in on time--the gruntwork) but none of the overall power. We all love the musical, but logistically, it's probably the reason there were two or three bottle eps between 7-13, one of which lacked the lead actress for most of it. She was grossed out by the invisisex; Joss overruled her. Take S7. Joss comes back after Firefly is canceled says everything sucks and does his own thing and, well, you saw Act 3 of S7. His LotR battle sequence probably set everything in the second half of the season back budget-wise.

But, it's a dead horse. Now I just scowl at people who tell me their canon.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I generally agree.

Fans tend to be more forgiving, but the casual viewer less so. A lot of them gave up in S6. Ratings went down.

And...yup , we're definitely flogging a dead horse. Whedon has a tendency to take on more than he can chew...and that's when his stories fall flat. He's much better with a smaller canvas.

I think you are right many of the plot problems in the last two seasons had a lot to do with Whedon. Marti wasn't a fan of the invisible sex scene, Fury wasn't a fan of the AR scene. Whedon was the tie breaker. Personally I think if both show-runners weren't on board they shouldn't have done it.

But it is what it is. Can't go back and change any of it. That said, I've noticed a pattern with television series, not just Whedon's, when they jump past the five year mark they start to retread the same ground, go a bit wonky, and lose track of characters. Very few don't have this problem. Comics and novels have similar problems in this regard.
Unless you block out the whole thing ahead of time, along with a character bible, I think you are bound to screw up at some point. Also there's the problem of always trying to top yourself - which I think Whedon fell into, Shondra Rhimes of Scandal and Grey's Anatomy is currently falling into that trap -- as opposed to just telling us a story.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Part of the conversation interestingly enough is about "Identity Crisis" and the flak he got for writing it when he had little knowledge of the verse. (He said he had written Justice League prior to it or something like that.)

Apparently the reason that Meltzer was on the show is that he's busy modernizing Batman:

http://www.newsarama.com/19954-brad-meltzer-honors-modernizes-batman-s-first-appearance-in-detective-comics-27.html

And I think he's one of the writers for the new Batman vs. Superman flick.

They have this long discussion about it. It's actually most of the video, very little of it is on Buffy. The main emphasis of the section on the Buffy comics is 1) I'm a plotter and don't care that much about individual characters, and 2)I got to write an explicit sex scene and kept the art to wack off to, and you have to buy it, so you can too. (Sigh. Made me think very little of Meltzer, and wonder a great deal about Whedon.)

[alexblack1.livejournal.com]

Creed (Rocky 7) Trailer

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

which only served to reinforce my belief that the Buffy comics are basically fanfic or crack fanfic, with little connection to the actual series.

I had only just watched the series and entered fandom when I came across those comics in 2013 - and my immediate reaction (after WTF??? and Ewww....) was "fanfic? Either parody of or - nope, just bad fanfic in and of itself."

I was not wrong. Damn, sometimes I hate being vindicated.

But he kept it on his hard-drive so he could wack off to it. Yes, he actually says that.

*headdesk* Where's a rocket launcher when you need one?