GOT - S7 - The Wolf & The Dragon

[shadowkat]

Just finished watching the GOT S7 finale...and...

OMG! That was frigging brilliant.

No wait...

That was even better than last week's episode!!!

They managed to tie up not one but two major mysteries at the same time! Plus great banter.



1. Bronn/Jamie

Bronn: Can't imagine fighting a war without a cock. What's the point?
Jamie: Maybe for the gold?
Bronn: Most blokes I know use the gold to buy women.
Jamie: Family?
Bronn: What family will you have without a cock?
Jamie: So maybe that's all it comes down to in the end, cocks?
Bronn: And your brother has pledged to the side without cocks.
Jamie: Will Tyrion always did side with the underdog.

2. Jon Snow: There is no war, but the Great War...this is not about living in harmony, this is about living.


Yeah, well, the only problem Jon, is Cersei isn't exactly sane or logical or pragmatic. Maybe he should have kidnapped Cersei and left her behind the wall? Jamie, on the other hand, you had convinced at the word Go.

They show Cersei et al the dead, and she reels back, frightened, then somehow manages to plot behind everyone's backs to get the upper hand. She'll let them fight each other, then rule over the spoils. To Cersei, the War is Lannisters vs. everyone.

Tyrion has a great scene with her and it appears he gets through, except she cons him and everyone else. Pledging they'll help. When in reality she plans on using the arm to take over their lands when they are gone and knife them in the back. Jamie discovers this when she attempts to keep him and his army from joining the fight in the North.

Cersei: You're a fool. You aren't going. Neither is our army...I lied. I'd never pledge allegiance to them. This is our opportunity...
Jamie: You do realize someone is going to win the War up there, and if it's the dead? We're dead. If it's the Dragon Queen and the North, they'll come down and get us for betraying them!
Cersei: Let them! We'll be stronger than them by then. I have elephants and the Iron Gold.
Jamie: That's in Esteros, how will it be any help?
Cersei: Euron has gone there to get it, he wants to marry the Queen!
Jamie looks at her disgust.
Cersei: IF you leave, I will have you executed for Treason!
Jamie looks like he'd like to execute Cersei.
Cersei: I will. Gregor -
Jamie: I don't believe you. (He leaves.)

But the scene where they show the dead guy or wight to Jamie, Cersei et al, does at least push Jamie to decide to fight. But Cersei's only willing to do it if Jon pledges allegiance to her or she gets something in return. Or pledges to stay in the north and leave well enough alone. It's a great scene.
So is the one where it appears Tyrion has talked Cersei into agreeing to a truce.

My one quibble is ...why would Cersei not agree to the truce? And why not send the army to fight in the North with the others for mutual survival? The characterization of Cersei has always irritated me. Kudos to Lena Headly for making the character palatable.

Other major quibble? When did she have time to plot with the terrified Euron who fled back to the Iron Isles?

Jon needs to send Ayra to King's Landing to assassinate Cersei.


3. Sansa: Bring my sister to me.
Me: Damn, LF is the bad guy you nitwit.
Ayra: Are you certain about this?
Sansa: Yes, we must do this for honor's sake. (Bran is sitting beside her)
Me: The Stark kids have become creepy.
Ayra: Very well. Bring it.
LF is grinning ear to ear in the corner.
ME: Fraking hell.
Sansa (looking stonily at Ayra): You are accused of treason and murder against this family. How do you plead, Lord Baelish?
Me: Whoa. So did not see that one coming. Neither did Lord Baelish apparently. I'm guessing we've been in his point of view? This explains so much.
Baelish: Wait? What??? You don't want to do this!!
Sansa: You stand accused of killing Lysa Arryan, pushing her out of the moon room..did you not do this?
Baelish: I did it to protect you.
Sansa: And plotting with Lysa to poison Jon Arryan. Then you sent a letter to our parents framing the Lannisters for it, so that you could pit the Starks against the Lannisters..do you deny this?
And you held a knife on our father and betrayed him -
Baelish: You have no proof, no one was there...
Bran: You held the knife to his throat and said that he was a fool for trusting you. (He repeats exactly what had happened chapter and verse. Apparently Bran has been watching GOT)
Me: What about the dagger -
Ayra: And this dagger was not Lord Tyrion's but yours, you plotted to kill Bran...and convinced everyone it was Tyrion..
Baelish: But I loved you Sansa, I did it for you!
Sansa: You loved me enough to betray me? To sell me to the Boultons?

Sansa orders Ayra to execute Lord Baelish. So does this mean Ayra gets to take his face?

Loved that. Finally. And from the three people who suffered the most due to his machinations.
Although they are rather creepy.

4. Is Jon Snow the true heir to the Iron Throne?

Bran tells Samwell about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark's son, so his last name should be Sand not Snow. No, says Samwell, they were married. Rhaegar had annulled his previous marriage to marry Lyanna. Meanwhile Jon and Dany are making love. Whoops. Complications. Although that was a hot sex scene. And I'm rather past the incest issue at this point, Jamie and Cersei sort of pushed me past that...also in Westeros, apparently there' s precedent.

Could they not have found a more attractive actor to play Rhaegar in the flashback?? Still loved that.


5. Down comes the wall...as predicted by the dragon. I'm not sure if Tormund died or not? I spent most of the bit, saying, "No, don't kill Tormund!" Although I've no clue how he could have survived.

Tormund - sees dragon :RUN!
ME: Yep.

And an army of dead invades Westeros, as snow finally falls on Kings Landing.

Fun episode, lots set up for next season.




[Oh, finished Wynonna Earp S1 -- highly recommend. Will review tomorrow.

Comments

[mefisto]

I don't think Cersei conned Tyrion, or at least not entirely. I think they made a deal: Tyrion promised to make Cersei's unborn child the successor to the Iron Throne. He thinks he can accomplish that because (a) if Cersei wins that will happen anyway; and (b) if Dany wins she can't have children (I think Tyrion is wrong about that, but he believes it).

I'm not sure what Tyrion got in return. It may have been Cersei's public promise to send her army north. In that case she's double-crossed him. However, I think there was something else. She told Jaime that he was "the stupidest Lannister" because he was planning for the army's northern march. That implies to me that either Tyrion knew that would never happen or that he would figure it out.

[anoyo]

I like this theory. A lot.

that's all I have to say

[mefisto]

:)

[shadowkat]

Hmmm...I don't know. I got the feeling she conned Tyrion somehow? That she'd agreed to send her armies North, and he convinced her if she did, afterwards, no one would kill her or the child. (She sort of states that they would look at her in sympathy after it was over, if she helped them or something to that effect in her speech.)

I did find it odd that she reneged on the deal -- what does she gain, exactly? Jaime's right, whoever wins will blow them away.

[mefisto]

Reneging on the deal may just be a return to Cersei's "short term clever, long term stupid" behavior. Or it may be part of some convoluted deal. At this point, I don't know. My instinct just tells me there was a deal with Tyrion.

[shadowkat]

Well, they admittedly led us to believe there was more to it...with the end of their conversation being Tyrion's exclamation: "My god, you're pregnant!" And the next scene, everyone coming back to make the deal. Then Cersei telling Jamie, that he's the least smart Lannister....

I'd say it's a bit too convoluted to go that road, but after what they did with LF, which...was even more convoluted and made less sense, anything is possible.

[shadowkat]

Although, she may be thinking they'll just kill each other off, and whoever is remaining is weak. (Keep in mind, she really hasn't seen their army and can't conceive of it, and has no knowledge of battle. She's not like Dany who has fought in battle. Or Jamie who saw it clearly...She's very limited in her perspective, and does not have much imagination. It's her fatal flaw.)

[dlgood]

I also think she does not care. That she'd let the world burn and rule over the ashes. And that if Dragons can't stop the army of the dead, what use are her men.

[shadowkat]

After watching "Inside Game of Thrones"? I think you are right that is exactly how she's being written -- pure evil.
I wish she was a little less one-dimensional.

[shadowkat]

True. She is a bit arrogant though, thinking she'll survive it or her child will. But Cersei's always been very arrogant, she's a lot like Tywin Lannister in that respect. Actually that's the fatal flaw of all the Lannisters...their arrogance and entitlement. They think they know everything.

[anoyo]

God, Cersei. Just. She needs to die, like, yesterday.

Good on Jaime for finally just leaving. I hope he just goes straight to Winterfell and is like, "Well, I can't give you the armies, but I can sure give you me."

I spent the entire sex scene / flashback thing doing the sign language for "awkward." It made me feel a little bit better? Maybe? Oh, man. still don't ship it

Also, I only like 5% believe Sam remembered being told that, especially since she didn't finish reading it. BAH. Oh, well. Deus ex machina and all that.

[shadowkat]

Sam may have read it? It was a long trip up to Winterfell. Could have happened off screen? (At least that was my fanwank of that bit.) You can tell that they don't have much time to cram in a huge amount of story.

Co-worker disliked the sex scene between Jon/Dany as well. [I actually thought it was tender and romantic unlike 98% of their sex scenes...which...uhm...aren't. ;-) I guess the incest bit doesn't really bother me because well, it's GOT, and they weren't raised that way and don't look like it. (shrugs) ]

Did like Jamie finally just leaving...which actually worked better here than it did in the books. (He leaves her in the books as well. But a lot earlier.)

[anoyo]

He may have, it's true. I just don't know if I believe it. I'll just utilize suspension of disbelief for the deus ex machina.

As for the Jon/Dany scene itself -- it was a lot better than most of the sex scenes, and if I shipped them, I'm pretty sure I would have loved it. I just...don't? Ship them? I think I might secretly ship Dany with Sansa, which -- what? When did that happen? Huh.

I'm just glad he left. He's a phenomenal character, and Cersei is just poison. Ugh.

[shadowkat]

LOL! You ship against the story thread, don't you? Eh, painfully frustrating that...

Yeah, my favorite character in the books was Jamie. In TV series, a bit less so...but still a favorite. The only lead character I'd like to see the end of is Cersei.

[dlgood]

When did she have time to plot with the terrified Euron who fled back to the Iron Isles?

Euron was never terrified. That was an act. I'm sure she'd already heard rumors from the Maesters of an army of the dead, and figured they were arranging a meet because it could be proven true.

She's already bought the Golden Company and has Euron planning to get them. She's already told Euron to pull the ruse without knowing Jon Snow will show her a wight. She's been steps ahead almost all season. And Tyrion, clever as he'd been up to now, has been steps beahind all season.

[shadowkat]

That tracks with what she was telling Jamie at the end. I think there is a wild card ...though...in her plan. She really doesn't know what she's up against. But then again, from her point of view she's survived worst...and has Euron, Gregor and the doctor, so what more does she need?

I forgot to mention Theon...who may put a wrinkled in her plans with Euron. Or not. I think he will...the writers appear to be heading towards a satisfying ending.

[dlgood]

Sansa orders Ayra to execute Lord Baelish. So does this mean Ayra gets to take his face?

In theory. But they killed Littlefinger in public - and people will know that. I think they wanted people to know he was executed - that Sansa and Arya are leaders not to be messed with.

So you won't really be able to use Littlefinger's face to infiltrate anywhere. Which is the point of taking a face.

[shadowkat]

Yes, and no. She could use Little Finger to infilterate Kings Landing. I've been pondering this. Would any one get word to Cersei? And would it be effective?

I don't know...maybe not. Cersei hated LF, hence the reason he was up North, and sees him as a traitor. So you're most likely right, it would serve no purpose.

[dlgood]

If she wants to kill Cersei using a face - it would need to be Jaime, and she'd need no one to know he was dead.

[shadowkat]

Not necessarily...there's always Dr. Frankenstein, whose name I can never remember. But, yes, it will probably be Jaime.

[mefisto]

You can't like Jaime's chances going to Winterfell once Arya finds out what he did to Bran.

[shadowkat]

Doesn't she already know what he did to Bran? It's not like it was a secret. I thought it was common knowledge?

I honestly think they'll have other things to worry about...by the time he gets there.

That said, I honestly don't see Jamie making it to the end. And he'll either get it at Ayra's hands or the White Walkers. (It's telling that I think GRR Martin may have intended on turning him into a walking dead like Brienne and Caitlynn, and having Caitlynn send him off to kill Cersei. But wrote himself into a corner of sorts. )

I'll be surprised if the Lannisters survive the final season.

[mefisto]

No, in fact nobody knows. And that includes Bran. In the books, Bran repressed the memory. It's possible that in the show he remembered and that I've forgotten that scene. But even if he does remember, there's no evidence that Arya knows.

[shadowkat]

Well, he told Caitlynn in the show and book. It's a great scene, with him in the mud. And a twist on the whole..."what I did for love" theme. And she knew prior to that -- that's why she tortured him. And he confesses to her as to why he did it. I don't remember if she told anyone else. But the army seemed to know. That was in S1 and S2. I remember, because back then I was focused on Jamie's arc and shipping Jamie fairly hard as a character. (Not any longer, but I was back then.)

I've moved on...mostly due to GRR Martin's handling of the character in Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons than the series...although it was in part a combination of both. Now, I'm not really shipping any of the characters that hard. (Makes for much more enjoyable viewing.)

Not sure what Ayra knows...except that he's not on her list of names. But neither was Baelish, and she only killed Baelish under Sansa's orders. Be curious to see if the writers go that route. There are other options. But I feel it's a waste to just have Ayra use her talents on the Frays, although that may be all she can do. Kings Landing is a long ways, and there's over 100,000 dead coming her way.

[mefisto]

Ah yes, Catelyn. I did forget that. But I'm not sure anyone now alive knows it, even in the books. In any case, I'm very sure Arya does not know. The only one who could plausibly tell her on the show is Bran. If she does find out, I can see her allowing her desire for vengeance to override even the danger from the WW, which could cause real problems with Jon and others.

ETA: Baelish certainly would have been on her list had she known what he had done. I see Jaime as in that category.

[shadowkat]

But why would Bran tell her? Assuming Jaime even gets there or meets up with them? Bran right now is knee deep again in the 3 Eyed Raven, and may well...be communing with the Night King. It made sense Bran would tell about LF, but....it's reaching for Jamie. I can't see him being in their vicinity, so much as with the armed forces.

I guess I can see how they could do it...but it would be difficult to orchestrate. The problem with GOT is the plot is almost too convoluted.

[mefisto]

There is no good reason for Bran to tell anyone, unless he harbors a grudge and I don't think he does. In fact, I think both he and Jon would pardon Jaime if it came to that, because Jaime is willing to fight the WW. But I'm not sure Arya would accept it.

[shadowkat]

Bran only reveals information when he thinks it's necessary and he waits a long time to do it. After all, he pretty much knew about Jon being Lyanna Stark and Rheagar's son but waited until Sam showed up to reveal to Sam, wisely not revealing it to the others. And he revealed the information to Sansa and Ayra, probably because they asked.

He doesn't care what happened. He's the 3 Eyed Raven. But he knew LF was a problem, so revealed. Also, there's an assumption he can reveal it --- he goes into trances.

No, I think Jamie will die another way. Or for another reason. The writer's already punished him for pushing Bran out the window, by chopping off his sword hand. Just as Theon has already been punished for burning the two boys and betraying Rob. There's no reason to kill him for that.

[mefisto]

I agree that it's unlikely to be revealed. I still think it takes guts for Jaime to head for Winterfell with that in the background.

[shadowkat]

Do we know if that is where he's headed? And is he going alone? It wasn't clear. But agreed, it takes guts. There's a reason he remains a favorite. ;-) Also if he goes, he may be able to warn the others regarding Cersei's plans...assuming he does.

I've read a lot of criticism of Tyrion coming up with the doomed plan to convince Cersei and not seeing through it...except, people are assuming Tyrion is omniscient (which no, that would be Bran), and knows what Cersei did or that she'd never go along with it. All he knows of her is pre-Tywin's death and that she hated him and wanted him dead. He clearly cared for her children and her on some level. Also there's an assumption she's steps ahead of everyone..except for Sansa, but here's the thing both Sansa and Cersei are still focused on the here and now, the Game of Thrones...they don't see the threat coming down. And one walking dead guy isn't enough to scare them. They don't think like people who are on the battle-field. Tyrion and Jamie lead the battles for Cersei, Cersei, herself, has never done so.

I think there's a tendency for a viewer to forget that the characters don't know as much as they do. Forgetting these characters perceptions are far more limited.

[mefisto]

The fact that Jaime can now warn the North about Cersei's betrayal is one of the things that puzzles me about why she drove him away. I mean sure, her basic strategy is "alienate every human being on earth and I'll win". But I can't see any gain for her on this unless there's some plan with Tyrion that I don't get (pair Jaime with Dany?). My spidey sense is tingling, but I can't put a finger on it.

I never had any problem with Tyrion's plan for the wight, but plenty of people did. I completely agree that there's a tendency to confuse what we the viewers know with what the characters know.

[shadowkat]

Not that hard to do. It's Westeros, there's no internet. Just ravens. ;-)