Pissy snarky day...Wonderfalls and other musings

[shadowkat]

Ugh, having the worst time of it with my internet server - it's been bouncing back email I send to aol users again. I get their email, they just may not get mine. Highly annoying. So - cjl? If you are reading this? Yes, we are on for Sat at noon. Looking forward to it. ;-) (I think it went through this time, since I haven't gotten a postal non-delivery message back yet regarding it.)

Watched Wonderfalls tonight. Interesting show, sometimes amusing, sometimes annoying, sometimes just plain perplexing, and other times incredibly clever. But not really predictable, which is an amazing feat for a tv show these days. I've come to the conclusion that the whole thing is meant to be taken somewhat tongue in cheek and is a parody of those oh-so-serious teen/young lady helps people shows such as: Dead Like Me, Tru Calling, Joan of Arcadia, and Touched by An Angel. Every once and a while formulaic shows will spawn something witty and clever as a sort of frustrated response to them. The OC, Beverly Hills 90210, One Tree Hill, Everwood and their ilk finally spawned Arrested Development a half hour parody of these oh-so-serious dysfunctional teen/family soap operas. Both are laugh out loud funny, especially if you've seen an episode of the shows that they are wittily making fun of.

Wonderfalls also had one of the best lines I've heard all week: Jaye to Binky (the Jaye wanna be or investigator reporter - you aren't sure which throughout the episode and neither is Binky or Jaye for that matter, which is amusing in of itself and also somewhat annoying and perplexing at the same time..): "You want to surround yourself with people who are at least at or below your level, but not fellow narcissists because that would direct the attention away from yourself."

Now, if I can only get past the jarring Malcolm in The Middelesque direction, which comes very close to giving me motion sickness each time I tune in, I'll be fine. (This may be the reason I don't watch Malcolm in The Middle that much.) Feel for the tv writer, my friends - they are literally ordered by marketing people to come up with clones of successful shows, the ones who maintain some sort of sanity or innovation, come up with parodies of the successful shows from time to time. From all the jarring hand-held camera techniques I've seen on TV lately, I'm beginning to think TV directors are equally bored. I'm also feeling this odd desire to conviscate their hand-held cameras.

At any rate - Wonderfalls and watching the DVD version of BTVS S4 Pangs this evening, along with some of
herselfnyc fanfic, relaxed me.
Lovely writer herself.

I think my difficulty with the villainous in the current Harry Potter is she reminds me a little bit too much of evil boss, same smarmy attitude, same bureaucratic nastiness - yes, you can be killed by memos. I kid you not. At any rate, I'm only on page 349 and I already want to see the character skinned alive. Not good, considering I have at least 400 more pages of her torturing characters to deal with. Ugh and I was *really* enjoying the book. Hmmm. Maybe I'll skim over her sections? Trying hard not to spoil myself.

Speaking of spoilers - jumped briefly over to BAPS and ASSB. I got slightly spoiled on 18, but nothing major. They seem confused by the spoilers over there-so you can't learn that much anyway. Which is a good thing. Since I would like to finish the year unspoiled if possible. Still more spoiled than I'd like to be for 17 and 18, but no more than I was in February when I got spoiled on 15/16. (A bunch of spoilers came out together.)

Have decided that people's responses to what is coming or even what has already appeared on-screen, has a lot to do with how committed they are to the fantasy story in their heads, which they deseperately want ME to tell. People - no writer is going to tell the fantasy story in your head, but you, they are going to tell the fantasy story in their head. You'd think this would be self-evident? Apparently not. (sigh). And no, this is not about anything that has appeared on atpo recently - I actually loved the criticism thread on Amends, wholeheartedly agreed with several folks on that thread.

Snow?

Snow? Yes, it's Pretty. Magical. Mysterious. We're all agreed on that (well when we're not sick of it and inconvienced) But ahem...we've been using it as a metaphor for these things since well the 1800s and The Christmas Carol, it not before..it's becoming a tad cliche don't you think? Was cute when Bing Crosby coined "I'm Dreaming of A White Christmas..." in 1940s. But now? Over 50 years later and 1000 of tv and movie and books later? Can we find something else? I only say this because in the space of the last year I've seen it used as "miraculous" in at least ten tv shows.



Sorry, snarky mood tonight - I put it down to a combo of bad internet server, bad weather, pms,
and cabin fever. Need Spring. Now! ;-)

Comments

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

The Umbridge thing almost made OOTP unreadable for me. God I hated her. Someone you can't defend yourself against because everything you do to stand up for yourself is reinterpreted so that you are the bad guy. Everything you say reinterpreted. A scarier villian than the 2-dimensional predictable Voldemort.

My OOTP thoughts (http://www.livejournal.com/users/masqthephlsphr/44905.html)

Ah yes..

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I skimmed some of your review, because don't want to spoil myself - trying, trying to be good. Hard as hell with this Umbrage woman - she is driving me wacky. Because she does to Potter, pretty much what you describe, twisting everything - so everyone misunderstands. Feel the same way about Cornelius Fudge, who I also want skinned alive. Voldemort oddly enough never frightened me much or bugs me, entertains yes, bugs no - why? He's a one-two dimensional villian. The most development Rowlings gives him is through Tom Riddle in Chamber of Secrets. The more frightening villians are the ones like Umbrage and Fudge - self-righteous,smarmy, and you can't do anything to stop them. I've met these.

I realized something about writing today, which you may like because it also deals with why one should not spoil oneself - you have to earn your moments. And to earn them means suffering through the development - the Umbrage pages, you can't just skip ahead and get the pay-off, because it's not a true pay-off if you haven't done the leg-work to get there. It's what I figured out I was doing wrong in my writing - I had all the characters and events in my head - the pay-off scene, but I didn't want to do the intervening chapters/development to get there, I hadn't earned it. (Took an evil fanfic to get me to see it.) Rowlings forces the reader to go through pain with the characters to earn the pay-off. That said, Umbrage is driving me bonkers...I'm not sure I can endure one more Potter detention with her and I know there's worse to come. Ack!

Re: Ah yes..

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

It's what I figured out I was doing wrong in my writing - I had all the characters and events in my head - the pay-off scene, but I didn't want to do the intervening chapters/development to get there, I hadn't earned it.

It's also a big problem with a lot of fan fic, or so I hear, I'm not a fan fic reader. But there are a lot of wonderful essays along just these lines in the LJ of gehayi. I enjoy reading her journal just for the meta-fanfic essays she does that talk so eloquently on the nature of good writing.

Re: Ah yes..

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I find fanfic an interesting exercise - for me it's a way of playing with my writing, hashing out problems, trying to figure out plotting structures - particularly now that I've become frozen creatively. Also - even if I pulled off a fantastic fic - I know it means little publishing wise, there's no way on earth I could publish or show it outside of online community - copyright problems.

That said - I've discovered some interesting fanfic errors or problems - which also lie within published novels. Just because you get published does not mean you are good. Actually just because someone gives you an award doesn't mean you're good either - from what I understand some of the book awards have more to do with ahem networking than actual good writing. But enough publishing world grousing/gossip. At any rate, here's
some of the problems I've seen and was discussing today with cjl:

1. Falling into the pit of contemplating everyone's navel.
This is when the characters basically just sit around and engage in a type of group therapy for ten chapters and the plot grounds to a halt. We have long sections of people rehashing things.

2. The erotic sex trap - this happens in a lot of romance novels, where you basically just have the characters engage in various forms of sex for about oh ten chapters, nothing moves forward, characters aren't developed.

3. Doing the worste thing possible to the characters for shock value or just to see if you can - but not actually going anywhere with it. This happens a lot in fanfiction apparently.

I think the trick is to remember four things:
1. What is my character's motivation? Would they do this?
2. How does this evolve my character emotionally or mentally? Does it take them to a new level, regress them?
3. Does doing this to my character push the plot forward in any way?
4. How does it affect the overall theme or character arc?
Does it push it forward? Stall it?

Fanfic or even analyzing what works and doesn't work in the narrative arcs of BTVS and ATS is a good way of breaking down how this works, I think. At least it's helping me, (idiot that I was, I already thought I had it all down, but I'm realizing that no matter how good you think you are as a writer, there's room for improvement and temptations to be lazy.).

One of the problems with fanfic online - is people don't critique it, they just applaud the writers. Oh this is just beautiful, etc. Not having the guts to come out and say, wait this doesn't work. And when someone does, they get flamed or ignored.

I think one of the toughest things about writing is finding someone who can give you objective and constructive criticism. A good beta. And it's tough to be a good critic. Very tough.

Re: Ah yes..

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Also - even if I pulled off a fantastic fic - I know it means little publishing wise, there's no way on earth I could publish or show it outside of online community - copyright problems.

This has always been one of my biggest problems with fanfic. I feel like the talents of the truly *good* ff writers are being wasted. I mean, they could be writing original fic and getting published and being admired for all the world to see! Instead, they post stories about someone else's characters on the internet for a limited audience.

Maybe that's just my snobbery. Maybe that's the audience they want.

1. Falling into the pit of contemplating everyone's navel.
This is when the characters basically just sit around and engage in a type of group therapy for ten chapters and the plot grounds to a halt. We have long sections of people rehashing things.

This is my biggest problem. The long lulls between action. Characters sitting around talking about what's going on instead of doing anything. I've known this is the biggest flaw with my current novel for a while now, but I was vigorously ignoring it. Then, recently, as I examined my novel through different lenses (first, I'll look exclusively at dialogue, then action, then description), I realized I had entire chapters where people just sit and yap at each other--"talking heads". And it's so late in the editing game now, I'm not sure I have the energy to fix this.

In a couple of these chapters, I've been working on changing the setting or giving characters something (plot-relevant) to do while they talk, but this is really hard this late in the game.

I think one of the toughest things about writing is finding someone who can give you objective and constructive criticism. A good beta. And it's tough to be a good critic. Very tough.

It's a big commitment, especially when it comes to a novel. Whether it's an original novel or fanfic or something in between, though, it's often a thankless job for the beta. They want to be helpful, but they risk hurting egos. It's the proverbial walking on eggshells. Note to self: never ever offer to beta for a significant other, ever again!

That's why I paid for the beta I had on my novel. I got a professional's opinion, I didn't feel I was bugging her (not for the prices she charged!), it was a service, and a useful one.

Re: Ah yes..

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

That's why I paid for the beta I had on my novel. I got a professional's opinion, I didn't feel I was bugging her (not for the prices she charged!), it was a service, and a useful one.

It's what my Dad currently does - before he self-publishes it. He hires a professional editor to read it through and pays her to be brutally honest with him. While my mother's helpful - he knows he needs more than that.

I've had two people that I met online attempt to beta my novel, one was too complimentary (we were friends), the other really did tear it apart - but I think he began to get tired of it and wasn't getting anything back - also I did not react fantastically to some of the criticism I'm afraid. (Bad place to work on the novel). What I've learned from the experience - is how hard it is to beta someone else's work and it probably works better to get a professional.

This has always been one of my biggest problems with fanfic. I feel like the talents of the truly *good* ff writers are being wasted. I mean, they could be writing original fic and getting published and being admired for all the world to see! Instead, they post stories about someone else's characters on the internet for a limited audience.

Heh. You and me both. I've really had to struggle with it, for a while I considered reading fanfic a *really* guilty secret liking stealing cookies, then I decided to look at it as harmless writing exercises. Still doesn't completely work though - I can only read and write fanfic based on tv shows, never on books - because I found a copyright loop-hole on writing fic for tv shows or movies (it's a completely different medium - an ancillary product, so there is a possibility - far-fetched, but there that it could be legal), fanfic on Harry Potter? No way. That's illegal. That's the same medium. I'm still embarrassed to admit to writing or reading it to outside parties.

So why do wonderful writers, and there are some truly fantastic writers writing fanfic out there, spend all this time on fanfic? Probably for the same reasons you and I write those Buffy essays, instant validation/gratification. If you write a great fic - you get a reward and have you seen the number of comments fanfic writers get in livejournal on a fic? Herself averages over 200 sometimes.
Same with Wisteria. They'd love to be published. They've written books - have them with agents - keep praying for that sale, but it doesn't happen. So they write fic, play out their fantasies and get the instant gratification they never got from those damn novels they spent half their lives writing. Heck, there's a few who have published stories and novels and still write fic, because they don't get as much praise on their novels as they do on their fic.

Right there with you on the "contemplating your navel" sin of writing. That was my novel's biggest problem. I kept stalling the action with these long sections of everyone sitting around talking, discussing what happened in the past - so on. I kept using dialogue to tell the reader about character or what had happened, instead of showing. A fiction teacher once told me: dialogue is jockeying for position - it should either show the reader who the character is or move the plot forward. And I break the rule every time.

Re: Ah yes..

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Right there with you on the "contemplating your navel" sin of writing. That was my novel's biggest problem. I kept stalling the action with these long sections of everyone sitting around talking, discussing what happened in the past - so on. I kept using dialogue to tell the reader about character or what had happened, instead of showing. A fiction teacher once told me: dialogue is jockeying for position - it should either show the reader who the character is or move the plot forward. And I break the rule every time.

You know what I think it is, for me, anyway? Being part of the TV/films generation. I know that sounds backwards--wouldn't constantly watching TV/films make you MORE action oriented instead of less? Well, I think it's the interaction between the kinds of novels we write (people like you and I) and growing up with television as the medium that taught us the art of story-telling.

We don't write "action-packed thrillers", we write (at least I write) novels about people in relationships. So there's bound to be some down time when there's not a lot of action going on. This is when our characters stop to consider what is going on in their lives, and make choices.

Now writing a novel is supposed to let you wander through your character's head, be in their mind while they muddle things through. But I don't write that way. Instead, I have my characters muddle through their problems over coffee or beer with another character. Why? Because that's the way it gets done on TV and films, where you can't get inside a character's head except through voice-over narration, which seems old-fashioned.

So my novel's action comes across rather like a screen play. There are moments of action and moments of dialogue (and sometimes, both combined).

When I ran some chapters of my story by some fiction work-shops, and then beta-d it, a lot of the feedback I got was, "We don't get into the character's heads". So I went back and did a lot of changes where I added introspection. Then I had this absurd manuscript in which I had my characters thinking about situation X at the same time they were "hashing over" situation X with another character. Repetitive information.

Most of that is gone now, smoothed out so that the "talking heads" scenes combine one set of information in the dialogue and a different set of information in the p.o.v. character's thoughts. I even have a couple interesting chapters where the character is talking to someone about one thing and thinking of something else entirely.

But still, did TV viewing ruin me for writing fiction? How come I could read a ton of fiction, watch a ton of TV, and my first writing efforts still come across as a screen play masquerading as a novel?

Re: Ah yes..

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

But still, did TV viewing ruin me for writing fiction? How come I could read a ton of fiction, watch a ton of TV, and my first writing efforts still come across as a screen play masquerading as a novel?

LOL! Perhaps you're just more comfortable with dialogue?
I was discussing this with cjl recently and he said that he feels more at home with the dialogue, describing the setting or action portions makes him impatient. So he writes teleplays. I read so many plays as a youngster, tons of them. I also watched soap operas and re-wrote sections in my head - because I liked the characters just was annoyed by the writing and soaps really do break the contemplating your navel rule. My first attempts at writing were pretty much all dialogue. I don't think I broke free from that until teachers forced me too. Literally telling me I wasn't allowed to use dialogue. But even then, I had it in my head that I was better at dialogue than description. (Probably because I was a tv watcher/play reader/film buff - oh I read too, and I love to read, but reading isn't something that came easily so my writing initially copied what I saw.)

How you write - might have a lot to do with how you think as well. I think visually, not verbally or auditorially.
I remember things in pictures and describe them. It's one of the reasons I loved comics - because of the picture element. But if you think auditorially - dialogue, the sound of the voice - is more your thing, perhaps? Not sure.

Now, looking at my novel, I can't help but think the weaker sections might be the dialogue. That surprised me, because I honestly thought I was better at dialogue. All my life I thought I was great at dialogue and horrid at description. Now after two years writing Buffy essays and interacting with people online and getting completely objective feedback (or feedback based purely on my writing and not having seen me face to face)- I've realized I'm better at describing what's going in the person's head - at the stream of consciousness description. This threw me a bit. So I try to write creatively again and find I suck at dialogue and the description is better? Then I flip back to my old stuff and think, wait, did all my dialogue read like exposition or stale without enough kick to it? One of the people who looked at my novel - told me, and this shocked me at the time, that my characters all sounded the same. Ouch.

It wasn't a comfortable realization. Caused a huge writers block. Because up until recently, I honestly believed that the dialogue was the best part. Someone had to point out to me that description was. Now, I'm trying to figure out how to write dialogue again, dialogue that actually says something about the character that is the character. I give Whedon a lot of credit, he was able to find a distinct voice for each character in his series, none of them sound the same. Not as easy as it looks. It's a weird quandry for me, who once thought I was great at dialogue, to be in. Writing can be a humbling experience.

Re: Ah yes..

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

LOL! Perhaps you're just more comfortable with dialogue?
I was discussing this with cjl recently and he said that he feels more at home with the dialogue, describing the setting or action portions makes him impatient.

The curse of the TV generation, I'm telling you. I feel that my strengths are dialogue and characters. My weaknesses are descriptive writing and conveying emotions.

Maybe this isn't from too much television, though. Maybe it's just a Rorschach of my personality. I'm the most unobservant person in the world. I never notice things around me. I do notice people, but not my environment. I'm an ex-psych major, so people fascinate me. And I absorb overheard dialogue like a sponge. It's amazing to me to look back at my scenes, and see places where I spit back dialogue I picked up in some random place (or on TV!)

Now, looking at my novel, I can't help but think the weaker sections might be the dialogue. That surprised me, because I honestly thought I was better at dialogue. All my life I thought I was great at dialogue and horrid at description.

This gives me pause, because maybe I'm not as good at dialogue as I imagine. But maybe I'm better at description than I give myself credit for. I bought this book on descriptive writing to get tips, and have been doing an in-depth analysis of my novel looking for places where I can apply the author's advice, and I'm finding a lot of my description isn't as bad as I thought. A lot needs work, but I'm not as stingy on the description as I believed. Or as rotten at it.

Now, I'm trying to figure out how to write dialogue again, dialogue that actually says something about the character that is the character.

Not easy. Sometimes I worry all my characters sound the same--namely, they sound like me. Well, me when I'm being stiff and formal. The truth is, all the characters ARE me, just different parts of me mixed in with bits and bobs of other people I know and maybe some fictional characters of other people.

What pov do you normally write in? One way I learned to get a character's distinct "voice" was by rewriting a scene entirely in the first person of the pov character. Sit back for a few moments, get an image of that character in my head, the way they're likely to talk and think, and then write the scene in the first person. Then later switching it back to third person. Some adjustments need to be made at that point, but it made a radical difference in my word choices in dialogue and in the character's introspection and their description of the world around them.

Re: Ah yes..

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not easy. Sometimes I worry all my characters sound the same--namely, they sound like me.

Ran into the same problem. A friend who'd read my novel came back to me and said, "you know I love your dialogue but everybody sounds the same, they have the same sound."
This worried me. So I tried to come up with slang terms for some. Didn't work by the way - the person who read that version gave me hell for the slang. Ugh. You can't win. LOL!.

A lot needs work, but I'm not as stingy on the description as I believed. Or as rotten at it.

If you can do it - I really suggest getting a few trusted friends to take a look - one's who are willing to give criticism. Tough by the way. I did it. Picked three people. Two of them were actually quite good, the third lousey. But they pointed out things to me about my writing that I had no clue about. Like you, I don't consider myself an observant person. When I take a walk with a friend - they notice the buildings, the gardens, etc - my focus is on what they are saying, the conversation, what to say next - I'm almost completely unaware of my environment - I could be anywhere. And when I walk by myself? Same thing happens - I get completely lost in my thoughts - the environment around me tends to fade into the background. So how could I possibly be good at description? Yet for some reason writing description and being observant don't go hand in hand. I have a friend, very observant, notices everything around them - can't write description to save their life. So maybe it is just how you think. I think in pictures and describe the pictures - like a constant movie going on in my head.
Some people think in music tracks or sounds. It's weird.

What pov do you normally write in?

Hard one. I'm most comfortable in third person close, I think it's called. It's the one in which you are in the person's thoughts, but using pronouns like she/he/her as opposed to I or you.

Example from evil fanfic:"Dawn’s voice or something incredibly similar to it, Buffy’s stomach tightened and the wood from Mr. Pointy cut into her palm. She heard the sound of something being tossed then bouncing, skittering across the marble until it slid to a halt beside her leather encased foot. "

I think that's third person close? I've forgotten what to call these things. I can't do first person. The first version of my novel was written in first person and boy was she a pathetic whiny thing. Another thing my creative writing prof taught me - "don't write in first person unless you can separate yourself from the character, because when you write about yourself you often come across horrid or too-good-to-be true." Not everyone has this problem of course. But I do. Actually, come to think of it - I don't really like most first person narratives, prefer the third person close - like how JK Rowling's does Harry Potter, where you are completely in Harry's pov but using third person.

I've experimented with jumping points of views - another problem with my novel. Discovered - it is very tricky thing to do without confusing the reader. You must be sure the reader knows whose pov they are in at all times. Confuse the reader at your own risk. Readers are fickle, they get annoyed with you - they are gone! This happened to me with readers of my novel - I attempted to shift point of view within a chapter, also every other chapter, didn't work that well.

You know even though it is tough writing well, I find the craft incredibly fun. I get some odd thrill trying to figure out how to make all this work.

Eek...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Just realized example taken from evil fanfic and out of context, reads horribly. At any rate you get the point,
use third person pronouns yet stick in the thoughts of one characters pov.

Re: Ah yes..

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

So why do wonderful writers, and there are some truly fantastic writers writing fanfic out there, spend all this time on fanfic? Probably for the same reasons you and I write those Buffy essays, instant validation/gratification. If you write a great fic - you get a reward

This does make a lot of sense. One thing that's kept my website going for over five years now, despite the fact that it sucks up hours of my time, including time I could be spending on my novel, is that it gets my writing out there and that writing gets seen and praised.

I suppose it's also my ability to analyze and synthesize the philosophical aspects of the show as well my ability to regurgitate said analyses in a pleasing writing style, but the point is I have been beguiled by the internet and the attention I get writing about someone else's characters.

But still, every day of my life I am reminded that I *never* set out to become an internet fandom personality (even a minor one), and have dreamed since i was 11 years old of being a published fiction writer and yet I am the former and not the latter.

Life is what happens while we're busy doing something else.

Re: Ah yes..

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

But still, every day of my life I am reminded that I *never* set out to become an internet fandom personality (even a minor one), and have dreamed since i was 11 years old of being a published fiction writer and yet I am the former and not the latter.

LOL! Yep, me too. I still haven't quite accepted the fact I'm an internet fandom personality. It shocks me a bit.
Not what I set out for. In fact when I mentioned to people online that I'm actually more of a fiction than non-fiction writer at heart - they seem slightly bewildered.

We basically fall into things I think...or they reach up and somehow grab us.

Re: Ah yes..

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

. In fact when I mentioned to people online that I'm actually more of a fiction than non-fiction writer at heart - they seem slightly bewildered.

Yeah, I don't think people quite believe this about me, either. But they do say they want to read my fiction after reading my essays. Now I just have to get up the courage to share!

Re: Ah yes..

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Yikes, and my OOTP review is FULL of spoilers. Read it later!