Avenger's Infinity War Part I
May. 12th, 2018 08:25 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatI finally saw it! (I may well be among the last people on DW to have seen it.) I was accidentally spoiled by sci-fi writer John Scalzi, so knew what to expect going in. And a lot of people on FB were being a bit vocal about it. DW was nicer -- thank you for that. I got somewhat spoiled by FB and Scalzi. In this case, that was probably a good thing. Less traumatizing. Also, I'm long-time comic book fan and reader, so I know they'll undo everything that happened in this movie in the next installment.
(I've read one too many of these sorts of scenarios.)
Was surprised by it -- it was a much better film that I'd expected. And a far better one than Last Jedi in some respects. The directors and writers had a lot of balls to hold in the air, and they managed to not drop any of them. Considering we had lots of characters and various locations, they did a could job developing all of them -- in part by simplifying the plot. A convoluted plot would have killed this film. It required a simple plot, a clear goal, and a complicated villain. Last Jedi had a convoluted plot, no clear goals, and a simplistic villain. As a result it was harder to follow, I plan to watch it again on "On Demand". Although, to be fair, I think, if you aren't into the Marvel films or the characters, and haven't seen them -- you'd be lost too. This film much like Jedi is targeted towards a specific nitch audience -- the ones who have seen all the films and are familiar with all the characters. Co-worker saw it on a cruise with his wife, and she drove him nuts asking him who everyone was.
Take aways? We have scenes with Benedict Cumberbatch and Robert Downy Jr. Stroke of genius to put Tony Stark and Dr. Strange together with Peter Quill, Chris Pratt. Although three actors tend to play smart-ass arrogant assholes. Watching them on screen together? Comic gold. Also Thor and Rocket and Groot and Peter Dinklater. We've got Scarlett Johnaseen, Ogya, and Wanda fighting together.
The cast? To die for. Peter Dinklater, Chris Evans, Chris Helmsworth, Robert Downey Jr., Benedict Cumberbatch, Scarlet Johannson, Chadwick Bosman, Letitia Wright, Mark Ruffalo, Gweyneth Paltrow, Don Chedal, William Hurt, Josh Brolin, Karen Gillian, Chris Pratt, (a lot of Chris's, damn that's a popular name, very happy it's not mine (grins evilly)), Bradley Cooper, it goes on and on.
I laughed my head off at times, and I cried. It's a devastating movie in places. You spend a great deal of it going..."Oh nooooo, nooo.....Damn it." The audience was NOT happy at the end of it. There was a very disgruntled crowd leaving the movie theater. "That movie sucked. Dumb movie. I can't believe they did that." I thought it was somewhat risky and really got it's point across.
It is an impossible film to discuss without serious spoilers. So still above the spoiler cut? Great FX, great fighting scenes, and a good tight plot and good character development. It was nowhere near as busy as I'd expected. Like I said, pleasantly surprised and a far better film than Avengers 1, Avengers 2 or Justice League, all of which had less characters. And Brolin played a fascinating villain.
1. The theme -- I rather liked, because I've been pondering it for a while now. What would happen if I could just snap my fingers and half the population on the globe would disappear? (I live in NYC, I'm aware there are a ton of people daily). Would it make things better? This film asks that question and doesn't preach about it or get on a soap box, it legitimately explores it from various points of view -- the villain Thanos, who is Titan, akin to a God, but not quite, believes in balance. And firmly believes that the Universe is out of balance. That there are too many people or too much life to support it. And if he removed half the life in the universe, it would be back in balance, people would be happier, there would be enough for everyone. There's just too many people, if he could snap his fingers and mercifully kill half of them by wiping them out of existence...life would be better for everyone. And it would be random. So he wouldn't pick people or anything. That's his goal. He just wants to put everything back into balance, and since no one else is willing to, or is strong enough to make these sacrifices and make these decisions to do it, he will. In other words, he decides to play God. And he is convinced he's right.
Villains don't see themselves as villains, they see themselves as heroes and saviors. In their point of view -- what they are doing is the right thing to do. Thanos isn't a guy who wants to rule the Universe or control it, he doesn't want power for his own sake, but in order to make things right, so people aren't starving, in pain, wanting things they can't have, competiting for things...he wants balance, equality for all, peace...he wants to sit and watch the sun rise and be quiet. And he's willing sacrifice EVERYTHING to make the Universe peaceful and balanced again.
Nice idea, in theory. But...whose to say killing off half the population of the Universe puts it into balance? How do you know that those you killed and destroyed won't do wonderful things to make it grow and continue life in marvelous ways? How can you possibly see the fabric of reality...from such a limited and myopic perspective? And how egotistical and arrogant to think you can. Yes, it is tempting to think...if I could just wave a magic wand and get rid of half the people, preferrably the ones I don't care about or like, life would be better. But would it? We don't know how it fits together. We can't see the tapestry of the universe because we are mere strands inside of it. It is arrogant to think that we can, and even more arrogant to claim there is no pattern and no meaning and no connections. We are lights interacting and building on each other...
To kill half of the universe is akin to well chopping off an arm or a leg. Thinking you won't notice.
Of course you will.
AVENGERS INFINITY WAR does a good job of showing this. In various ways. How each of the characters is strengthened by those around them. One character is no greater than the others. And as they work with one another, they build on each other's strengths. It is their team-work, they interactions that make them interesting.
When Thanos rips the half away, which he does... we see how weaker they become. Thor is nothing without Loki, Loki gives Thor perspective, and to a degree humor. He makes him question himself. Loki is the first to be ripped away. (And I sort realized at that point this movie was not like the others.)
Then we see the interactions between Spiderman, Stark, Strange, and Starlord. All four are strong personalities...and Stark wants to desperately control the show, but he lets the others help and they prove effective. Quill comes up with the plan. Strange finds a way to mystically distract. It works but it doesn't. Because Quill loses it over Gamora's death. Our connections make us strong and weak at the same time. The comedy, the camraderi. How each sacrifices for the others.
And on the ground with Captain America, Hulk, Black Widow, Winter Solider, Black Panter et all..how they work together to help the Vision and Wanda aka Scarlet Witch.
When each loses someone...when their comrades turn to dust before their eyes, clinging to life...we see first hand the flaw in Thanos thinking. It is far from merciful, and it pulls light away, leaving the survivors drowned in grief and chaos. There's no gratitude for Thanos, only grief, despair, and hate.
Genocide as Strange states does not heal a universe.
2. The film took a huge risk, it killed over half the characters. At the end we are left with the four original Avengers - Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Thor, Black Widow, The Hulk, Don Cheadal, and a few of Black Panthers female warriors along with Rocket from Guardians of the Galaxy along with Karen Gillian's Ameilia. Also the electronic husk of The Vision. Everyone else is dead. Including (if you were smart and watched the credits) Nick Fury and Cobie Smulders. That's right they killed off everyone's favorites.
Bucky
Starlord
Gamora
Spiderman
Black Panther
Dax
Groot
Loki
Dr. Strange
the list goes on and on.
It's tramautizing to watch. Loki dies early on as does Gamora. Both painfully. And with huge sacrifice.
Doctor Strange does something interesting, which provides a clue to where the writers may be going with all of this. Stark tells Strange that Thanos has been in his head since the War on NY, and Thanos had sent Loki to Earth for the Tesserect. Then, Strange states that he will protect the mind stone at all costs, even if that means letting Stark or Spiderman die. Then..Strange views 17.4 million possible outcomes, and when Stark asks which one they won, Strange states only one.
So...when Thanos holds Stark's life in his grasp. Strange states that he will give Thanos the "Time" Stone in exchange for Stark's life. "Spare him, and I will give you the stone, no tricks." It shocks the hell out of Stark and the audience. After he does it, Stark asks why...and he says we're in the end game now. Then, just before Strange melts away into dust...he tells Stark that "it was the only option, the only way."
He saw every alternate future, every possibility in time, and realized the only way to win was to exchange the stone for Stark's life. To make that sacrifice.
[My guess, knowing what I know about the actors contracts and who wants to resign, and when they run out -- they run out after Avenger's Infinity War Part II by the way, that Stark, Captain America and Thor may well sacrifice themselves to bring everyone else back. Chris Evans, Robert Downy Jr. and Chris Helmsworth want to move on and don't want to continue after Infinity War Part II. I don't know about Scarlett Johannson and Mark Ruffalo I also know that The Black Panther beat the pants off of the Iron Man and Captain America franchises and there's no way in hell that Disney will pass up the money that franchise will bring in. Infinity War was filmed at the same time as Black Panther. Also, Spiderman: Homecoming did very well last year...so ditto. They aren't dropping that franchise either.
Infinity War Part II will most likely be the original Avengers -- Hawkeye, Captain America, Iron Man, Don Cheadal, the Hulk, with Ant Man, the Wasp, Captain Marvel, Rocket, Ogay and a female Black Panther - Letitia Wright joining forces to undo what Thanos wrought.]
3. The character moments in this surprised me.
* Thanos and Gamora...we really got a lot of character development on the villain. Thanos is the most developed villain since well Black Panther's Killmonker, and Loki. Like the other two, this man has depth and rational. He loves Gamora and truly mourns killing her. As he mourns the fact that she rejects him and hates his purpose and doesn't understand it any longer. She also mourned what she thought was his passing.
* Thor and Loki -- Thor truly mourns Loki and suffers through it. And Loki makes a huge sacrifice for Thor and the world, trying to take out Thanos.
* Thor/Groot/Rocket -- very good interaction that develops all three. Rocket who is forced to show empathy. Groot who shows empathy and caring for someone other than himself and actually matures. And Thor...who has to find a way to get past his grief.
* Stark/Spidey, Stark/Pepper Potts, Stark/Dr. Strange, and Stark/Quill -- all good character moments in relation to Tony Stark, who is forced to face his own demons and own egotistical impulses. Quill is Stark's mirror, as is Strange, both egoists who think they know everything. Both fast talking.
Then there's Spidey, who is a younger version of all four...and informs them as well.
* Quill/Gamora -- and how he has to deal with the fact she loves him, but also needs him to kill her. When he finally does...it's only bubbles, because Thanos has the reality stone by this stage.
* The ground crew doesn't get quite as many great moments, although there's a good one between Wanda and Vision, along with Captain America/Bucky. This group doesn't get quite as much as the other group, due to a lot of characters in play.
4. The plot for such a busy film was surprisingly tight and held together. Far better than other films I'd seen with huge casts lately. I think it is because it was so simple. The villain had a simple goal -- get the stones, wipe out half the population. The heroes had one goal -- stop him by any means necessary. And some of those means were almost impossible. It did make it clear that once Strange gave up the Time Stone, it was over. There was no way they could stop him. Why Strange did it is interesting. Although, I'm not sure they had much of a chance after he got the Reality and Soul stones to be honest. Also, I'm not sure Strange could have avoided giving it to him, which may be why he did it. He realized that he'd missed the opportunity to stop it. That once they lost the ability to remove the "glove", the game was over and there was a limited number of chances.
Or Strange saw it all play out and knew what he had to do ahead of time and that's why he was so upset. "It was the only option, Tony."
I didn't see any plot holes or continuity issues in this. And it felt as if they had plotted this out well ahead of time. So kudos to the writers and directors.
Overall? I'd give the film a B+/A- for what it is.
(I've read one too many of these sorts of scenarios.)
Was surprised by it -- it was a much better film that I'd expected. And a far better one than Last Jedi in some respects. The directors and writers had a lot of balls to hold in the air, and they managed to not drop any of them. Considering we had lots of characters and various locations, they did a could job developing all of them -- in part by simplifying the plot. A convoluted plot would have killed this film. It required a simple plot, a clear goal, and a complicated villain. Last Jedi had a convoluted plot, no clear goals, and a simplistic villain. As a result it was harder to follow, I plan to watch it again on "On Demand". Although, to be fair, I think, if you aren't into the Marvel films or the characters, and haven't seen them -- you'd be lost too. This film much like Jedi is targeted towards a specific nitch audience -- the ones who have seen all the films and are familiar with all the characters. Co-worker saw it on a cruise with his wife, and she drove him nuts asking him who everyone was.
Take aways? We have scenes with Benedict Cumberbatch and Robert Downy Jr. Stroke of genius to put Tony Stark and Dr. Strange together with Peter Quill, Chris Pratt. Although three actors tend to play smart-ass arrogant assholes. Watching them on screen together? Comic gold. Also Thor and Rocket and Groot and Peter Dinklater. We've got Scarlett Johnaseen, Ogya, and Wanda fighting together.
The cast? To die for. Peter Dinklater, Chris Evans, Chris Helmsworth, Robert Downey Jr., Benedict Cumberbatch, Scarlet Johannson, Chadwick Bosman, Letitia Wright, Mark Ruffalo, Gweyneth Paltrow, Don Chedal, William Hurt, Josh Brolin, Karen Gillian, Chris Pratt, (a lot of Chris's, damn that's a popular name, very happy it's not mine (grins evilly)), Bradley Cooper, it goes on and on.
I laughed my head off at times, and I cried. It's a devastating movie in places. You spend a great deal of it going..."Oh nooooo, nooo.....Damn it." The audience was NOT happy at the end of it. There was a very disgruntled crowd leaving the movie theater. "That movie sucked. Dumb movie. I can't believe they did that." I thought it was somewhat risky and really got it's point across.
It is an impossible film to discuss without serious spoilers. So still above the spoiler cut? Great FX, great fighting scenes, and a good tight plot and good character development. It was nowhere near as busy as I'd expected. Like I said, pleasantly surprised and a far better film than Avengers 1, Avengers 2 or Justice League, all of which had less characters. And Brolin played a fascinating villain.
1. The theme -- I rather liked, because I've been pondering it for a while now. What would happen if I could just snap my fingers and half the population on the globe would disappear? (I live in NYC, I'm aware there are a ton of people daily). Would it make things better? This film asks that question and doesn't preach about it or get on a soap box, it legitimately explores it from various points of view -- the villain Thanos, who is Titan, akin to a God, but not quite, believes in balance. And firmly believes that the Universe is out of balance. That there are too many people or too much life to support it. And if he removed half the life in the universe, it would be back in balance, people would be happier, there would be enough for everyone. There's just too many people, if he could snap his fingers and mercifully kill half of them by wiping them out of existence...life would be better for everyone. And it would be random. So he wouldn't pick people or anything. That's his goal. He just wants to put everything back into balance, and since no one else is willing to, or is strong enough to make these sacrifices and make these decisions to do it, he will. In other words, he decides to play God. And he is convinced he's right.
Villains don't see themselves as villains, they see themselves as heroes and saviors. In their point of view -- what they are doing is the right thing to do. Thanos isn't a guy who wants to rule the Universe or control it, he doesn't want power for his own sake, but in order to make things right, so people aren't starving, in pain, wanting things they can't have, competiting for things...he wants balance, equality for all, peace...he wants to sit and watch the sun rise and be quiet. And he's willing sacrifice EVERYTHING to make the Universe peaceful and balanced again.
Nice idea, in theory. But...whose to say killing off half the population of the Universe puts it into balance? How do you know that those you killed and destroyed won't do wonderful things to make it grow and continue life in marvelous ways? How can you possibly see the fabric of reality...from such a limited and myopic perspective? And how egotistical and arrogant to think you can. Yes, it is tempting to think...if I could just wave a magic wand and get rid of half the people, preferrably the ones I don't care about or like, life would be better. But would it? We don't know how it fits together. We can't see the tapestry of the universe because we are mere strands inside of it. It is arrogant to think that we can, and even more arrogant to claim there is no pattern and no meaning and no connections. We are lights interacting and building on each other...
To kill half of the universe is akin to well chopping off an arm or a leg. Thinking you won't notice.
Of course you will.
AVENGERS INFINITY WAR does a good job of showing this. In various ways. How each of the characters is strengthened by those around them. One character is no greater than the others. And as they work with one another, they build on each other's strengths. It is their team-work, they interactions that make them interesting.
When Thanos rips the half away, which he does... we see how weaker they become. Thor is nothing without Loki, Loki gives Thor perspective, and to a degree humor. He makes him question himself. Loki is the first to be ripped away. (And I sort realized at that point this movie was not like the others.)
Then we see the interactions between Spiderman, Stark, Strange, and Starlord. All four are strong personalities...and Stark wants to desperately control the show, but he lets the others help and they prove effective. Quill comes up with the plan. Strange finds a way to mystically distract. It works but it doesn't. Because Quill loses it over Gamora's death. Our connections make us strong and weak at the same time. The comedy, the camraderi. How each sacrifices for the others.
And on the ground with Captain America, Hulk, Black Widow, Winter Solider, Black Panter et all..how they work together to help the Vision and Wanda aka Scarlet Witch.
When each loses someone...when their comrades turn to dust before their eyes, clinging to life...we see first hand the flaw in Thanos thinking. It is far from merciful, and it pulls light away, leaving the survivors drowned in grief and chaos. There's no gratitude for Thanos, only grief, despair, and hate.
Genocide as Strange states does not heal a universe.
2. The film took a huge risk, it killed over half the characters. At the end we are left with the four original Avengers - Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Thor, Black Widow, The Hulk, Don Cheadal, and a few of Black Panthers female warriors along with Rocket from Guardians of the Galaxy along with Karen Gillian's Ameilia. Also the electronic husk of The Vision. Everyone else is dead. Including (if you were smart and watched the credits) Nick Fury and Cobie Smulders. That's right they killed off everyone's favorites.
Bucky
Starlord
Gamora
Spiderman
Black Panther
Dax
Groot
Loki
Dr. Strange
the list goes on and on.
It's tramautizing to watch. Loki dies early on as does Gamora. Both painfully. And with huge sacrifice.
Doctor Strange does something interesting, which provides a clue to where the writers may be going with all of this. Stark tells Strange that Thanos has been in his head since the War on NY, and Thanos had sent Loki to Earth for the Tesserect. Then, Strange states that he will protect the mind stone at all costs, even if that means letting Stark or Spiderman die. Then..Strange views 17.4 million possible outcomes, and when Stark asks which one they won, Strange states only one.
So...when Thanos holds Stark's life in his grasp. Strange states that he will give Thanos the "Time" Stone in exchange for Stark's life. "Spare him, and I will give you the stone, no tricks." It shocks the hell out of Stark and the audience. After he does it, Stark asks why...and he says we're in the end game now. Then, just before Strange melts away into dust...he tells Stark that "it was the only option, the only way."
He saw every alternate future, every possibility in time, and realized the only way to win was to exchange the stone for Stark's life. To make that sacrifice.
[My guess, knowing what I know about the actors contracts and who wants to resign, and when they run out -- they run out after Avenger's Infinity War Part II by the way, that Stark, Captain America and Thor may well sacrifice themselves to bring everyone else back. Chris Evans, Robert Downy Jr. and Chris Helmsworth want to move on and don't want to continue after Infinity War Part II. I don't know about Scarlett Johannson and Mark Ruffalo I also know that The Black Panther beat the pants off of the Iron Man and Captain America franchises and there's no way in hell that Disney will pass up the money that franchise will bring in. Infinity War was filmed at the same time as Black Panther. Also, Spiderman: Homecoming did very well last year...so ditto. They aren't dropping that franchise either.
Infinity War Part II will most likely be the original Avengers -- Hawkeye, Captain America, Iron Man, Don Cheadal, the Hulk, with Ant Man, the Wasp, Captain Marvel, Rocket, Ogay and a female Black Panther - Letitia Wright joining forces to undo what Thanos wrought.]
3. The character moments in this surprised me.
* Thanos and Gamora...we really got a lot of character development on the villain. Thanos is the most developed villain since well Black Panther's Killmonker, and Loki. Like the other two, this man has depth and rational. He loves Gamora and truly mourns killing her. As he mourns the fact that she rejects him and hates his purpose and doesn't understand it any longer. She also mourned what she thought was his passing.
* Thor and Loki -- Thor truly mourns Loki and suffers through it. And Loki makes a huge sacrifice for Thor and the world, trying to take out Thanos.
* Thor/Groot/Rocket -- very good interaction that develops all three. Rocket who is forced to show empathy. Groot who shows empathy and caring for someone other than himself and actually matures. And Thor...who has to find a way to get past his grief.
* Stark/Spidey, Stark/Pepper Potts, Stark/Dr. Strange, and Stark/Quill -- all good character moments in relation to Tony Stark, who is forced to face his own demons and own egotistical impulses. Quill is Stark's mirror, as is Strange, both egoists who think they know everything. Both fast talking.
Then there's Spidey, who is a younger version of all four...and informs them as well.
* Quill/Gamora -- and how he has to deal with the fact she loves him, but also needs him to kill her. When he finally does...it's only bubbles, because Thanos has the reality stone by this stage.
* The ground crew doesn't get quite as many great moments, although there's a good one between Wanda and Vision, along with Captain America/Bucky. This group doesn't get quite as much as the other group, due to a lot of characters in play.
4. The plot for such a busy film was surprisingly tight and held together. Far better than other films I'd seen with huge casts lately. I think it is because it was so simple. The villain had a simple goal -- get the stones, wipe out half the population. The heroes had one goal -- stop him by any means necessary. And some of those means were almost impossible. It did make it clear that once Strange gave up the Time Stone, it was over. There was no way they could stop him. Why Strange did it is interesting. Although, I'm not sure they had much of a chance after he got the Reality and Soul stones to be honest. Also, I'm not sure Strange could have avoided giving it to him, which may be why he did it. He realized that he'd missed the opportunity to stop it. That once they lost the ability to remove the "glove", the game was over and there was a limited number of chances.
Or Strange saw it all play out and knew what he had to do ahead of time and that's why he was so upset. "It was the only option, Tony."
I didn't see any plot holes or continuity issues in this. And it felt as if they had plotted this out well ahead of time. So kudos to the writers and directors.
Overall? I'd give the film a B+/A- for what it is.
no subject
Date: 2018-05-13 09:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-05-13 10:49 pm (UTC)Dangers of overthinking it and reading fanfic first...
Date: 2018-05-14 01:26 am (UTC)Also, good example of how reading fanfic can kill one's enjoyment of a movie or television show. Saw the same thing happen with Buffy fans and Chosen -- they had fanfic that they liked better in their heads. I went in with no fanfic in my head so it didn't interfere with my experience of the film.
(As an aside, this is actually why a lot of original creators despise fanfic -- because it often interferes with their creation or fans enjoyment of their creation. If they follow the route the fanfic went -- the fanfic writer sues them for plagirism which is why none of them will EVER read fanfic. This actually happened in the Buffy fandom, where a fanfic writer claimed that the writers followed his plot. They didn't. They didn't know he existed. But they had to go through hurdles to prove it. Ironic, considering fanfic is only legal if it doesn't detract from the original work, compete with the original work, or infringe upon it. The moment it does -- copyright infringement, and fanfic writer could be sued. Copyright law is confusing in this regard. Which is why I strongly caution people to be careful about discussing fanfic in reviews and in discussions with original creators. Some, including Ursula Le Quinn, Diana Gabaldone, JK Rowling, Fox Studios for Buffy, and Lucas have successfully shut down cocky fanfic writers at various points. The free use loophole under copyright law that permits fanfic is a narrow one and highly controversial one that is constantly open for interpretation. Not that you are doing that, of course.)
Regarding the Plot..
Date: 2018-05-14 01:58 am (UTC)Anyhow plot points:
1. I do agree that Strange gave him the Stone because at that point he knew it wouldn't matter -- Thanos would get it either way. All he could do at that point was save Stark's life. He could no longer save the stone or the Universe. Because he'd seen all 17.4 Million possibilities he knew that.
2. I think Quill and Stark's plan really was to get the glove off by any means necessary -- because they knew at that point they couldn't kill Thanos.
3. Regarding beginning bit? Valkeri was most likely killed on the ship along with everyone else -- there's no way she could have survived that nor do I see her running from it. It was an expensive film and they couldn't afford that actress on top of Idris Elba. Also she wasn't really needed. Thor wasn't in love with her -- his main relationship was with Idris Elba, The Hulk and Loki.
I can't remember all of Thor: Raganoraock -- but wasn't Thor's hammer destroyed in that film by Hela? Which is why he went to get an Ax to kill Thanos, but made the mistake in not cutting off Thanos hand or head. (I kept thinking, people just cut off his hand, really.)
I'm willing to bet the solution will be the time stone, which will undo time. Loki may still survive. (shrugs)
4. For me, it was an easier movie to follow than a lot of the others...and I got what each group was doing. One was trying to find a way to kill Thanos -- Thor.
One trying to find a way to get his stones away from him and defeat him -- Stark/Strange -- let's take the fight to Thanos, we have no time to get a weapon.
Two groups were trying to prevent him from getting the stones -- Captain America's group and Quill's group. [Last Jedi in comparison? I've no idea what each group was doing, except being extremely stupid and arrogant about it. But back to Infinity War.)
So basically you had a disagreement on strategy or three - four stragetic approaches. That makes sense, actually. The Avengers had split -- because of a disagreement over strategy and world-view. Thor, Stark, Captain America etc did not see eye-to-eye on how to lead the group or do much of anything. So when Thanos arrives, they attack him from various angles, but not really as a unified group, which is why he wins.
* Thor's strategy -- we get a weapon that can kill him, and don't try to take him on without it. Thor at this point could care less about the stones, all he cares about is killing Thanos. (Remember of the group, Thor is the only one who tried to fight him directly and he does it right after defeating Hela. So he's not exactly in the best of shape. And he has vengeance issues much like Dax. He wants to kill Thanos, doesn't care that much about the stones or reality. He's lost everything. Rocket? Cares about well weapons.)
Now, the two characters who go with Thor are sort of in agreement. They just took on a big guy, and from their perspective the weapons matter the most. Rocket and Groot go to get weapons.
This plan seems ideal, except, Thor's ego gets in his way and like Quill before him, he goes for Thanos heart and not his hand or his neck. Both are ineffective -- in the same way Gamora is. They focus on killing Thanos, not on removing his glove or preventing him from using the stones. And Quill and Thor both fall into this trap for the same reasons -- they let their grief take center stage. Also neither works with the others -- Quill doesn't listen to his teammates and beats on Thanos for killing Gamora, and Thor doesn't listen and cut off Thanos hand, instead he goes for the heart.
*Quill's strategy is to stop Thanos from getting any more rings and hopefully defeat him. He goes to the Collector to save the reality stone. Thor believes this is stupid and futile -- it's impossible to stop Thanos without a weapon that can kill him. Quill doesn't believe there is such a weapon and it's better to get there before Thanos does and get the stone and make it disappear. Quill's strategy is by the way similar to Doctor Strange and Captain America, who equally think destroying the stones or getting them somewhere safe and far away is the best bet. Protect the stones at all cost -- is Quill, Strange and Cap's strategy.
The only problem with that is they aren't really willing to do it at all costs. Quill doesn't kill Gamora before Thanos gets a hold of her and the soul stone. Cap/Wanda can't kill Vision to destroy the mind stone, and Strange can't destroy the time stone or give it to anyone else. He does manage to hide it -- but he also gives it up, just as Gamora gives up the soul stone to save a life. Ironically, Wanda, Strange, Gamora, and The Vision (the caretakers of the stones in one way or another) all die trying to protect them or after they give them up, rendering this plan futile.
Quill's problem like Thor's is he lets his ego and worry about Gamora get in his way. He refuses to listen to Stark, and he refuses to listen to Gamora.
* Stark's strategy -- note this Stark's not Strange's. Strange wants to get the stone away from Thanos. Stark wants to defeat Thanos and believes it would be best to take the fight to him. From Stark's perspective this is doable. He's already defeated Thanos's underling. And he has a Wizard with him. When Quill arrives, and also wants to kill and defeat Thanos, for the same reasons Thor does, Stark fights with him on it -- stating the important thing is to get the stones away from him.
Stark's plan -- which Quill expertly strategizes actually has the best chance at success. And they almost succeed. They are working together up until the point Quill discovers that Thanos traded Gamora's life and soul for the soul stone, that's when it falls apart. And they lose.
At that point, all Strange can do is try to make the best of a bad situation and he goes for Plan B, which is Thanos gets the stones, half the universe dies, and hopefully the remaining portion figures out a way to undo it.
* Captain America's Strategy is to destroy the mind stone. What he doesn't know is that the time stone and reality stone can undo that. The stones can be destroyed, but certain stones can undo that. So some can, some can't.
That's why you got confused.
It would have worked and almost did, except that Thanos has the time stone. Although I think the reality stone would have undone it as well.
Next possibility? Thor can kill Thanos. But Thor makes the same mistake Quill and Gamora do -- and goes for the heart not the head, nor does he cut off the glove. Stark and Strange figured out that you have to take the glove off or get rid of that.
This leaves us with one last strategy -- which is to get the stones and undo what happened, which of course will have a dire cost.
I think that plot works very well. It's simple. Not overly convoluted. And has some interesting and timely themes -- about how if you work at cross-purposes or don't rely on your team and put your own ego above all else -- disaster. Too many chiefs, not enough Indians in other words. Which has always been the problem with the Avengers -- Cap, Stark, and Thor don't take orders well from others. Neither does Quill or Strange. We have too many strong egos in there.
It's anti-Rand, or against the cult of the individual. It's also anti-fascism.
Re: Regarding the Plot..
Date: 2018-05-14 07:58 pm (UTC)It was later explained by the directors that she escaped the ship along with half of the Asgardians. Apparently there was a line about the escape but clearly I wasn't the only one to miss it!
I can't remember all of Thor: Raganoraock -- but wasn't Thor's hammer destroyed in that film by Hela? Which is why he went to get an Ax to kill Thanos
Yes, but then when he thinks he can't win the battle without it, Odin appears to him and reminds him that he's not the god of hammers. And so just as in the arena, he begins wielding lightning without it. The point being that the hammer simply channels Thor's powers, it's not the source of them. So why does Thor need the axe? And why would it "revive" him?
And yeah, the fact that Thor doesn't cut off either head or hand is beyond stupid, though I agree that there are character reasons why people do what they do. The problem is that the accumulating number of dumb (and plot convenient) decisions starts to become obvious whereas there would be other ways you could write scenes where our heroes simply didn't get the opportunity to do things that might have worked.
So it was a problem in the film overall, that certain things don't get tried given all the powers everyone had. For example, if Thanos has the power to remake the universe with the gauntlet, why kill people? Why not create more planets and resources? His motivation in the comics made much more sense -- he's immortal so he longs to die. Therefore he kills millions in an effort to get Lady Death's attention and her willingness to bring him to her realm, in other words, to give him death.
So when Thanos arrives, they attack him from various angles, but not really as a unified group, which is why he wins.
Nice point, yes, I agree that this is where the buildup across films starts paying off.
Re: Regarding the Plot..
Date: 2018-05-15 12:22 am (UTC)However...Thor was not in his right mind when he went after Thanos, nor was Quill. In the heat of the moment, people don't tend to think rationally. Nor were these people working together. Thor is a lot of things, but a keen stragetist isn't one of them -- that's Loki. Which is why he's weakened a bit by Loki's loss. Also Stark not being there -- because Stark's the one who came up with getting the glove off, not trying to kill Thanos. The strategists were all on Titan, unfortunately. While the fighters were all on Earth. (Amusing that.)
Why did Thor need an ax?? Because thunder wasn't going to stop Thanos. Thanos had the stone of reality -- he could handle Thunder. No, what the ax could have done, if Thor was using his brain, which he doesn't always do, is either chop off the head or hand. But keep in mind, Thor isn't used to weilding axes, he's used to wielding hammers. So he basically wielded the ax the same as the hammer.
Oh, I completely missed the bit about Valkeri and her group escaping from Thanos.
Cool. That means they will be in Infinity War Part II. (You can't have everyone in both movies -- it would be impossible to keep track of all of the characters.)