The Good Place and other things..

[shadowkat]

Took today off -- mainly because if I didn't, I'd lose the day. It's the last personal day of the year, and per contract they give you back a percentage, not the full amount of the day if you don't take it prior to Thanksgiving.

Also, I wanted a break from work and commuting.

Saw a few television show fall finals this morning. They are calling them "Fall Finals" now, we can thank streaming and cable for this change. Before they just didn't tell us, and would show reruns or maybe an off-shoot standalone in December and two in January.

If you want to know why this happens? It's because they only shoot 13-22 episodes a year. And they shoot (aka film) between July and October, or there abouts. Take a break. Then pick up again and shoot for the second half. So basically they are filming during January through March or something like that. And, in the US, the broadcast networks do not broadcast television series during the holiday period between Thanksgiving and New Years, with the view that most people aren't watching or just want to watch holiday fair. Also the advertisers dictate broadcast programming in the US. So what pops up between Thanksgiving and around the Second Week of January are a lot of Awards shows, reality shows, Christmas specials, Christmas movies, musical variety specials...and Football. Lots and lots of Football. In short, it is a great time to catch up on your DVR queue, and binge watch things on Hulu, Netflix and Amazon, also HBO.

I used to hate it when they did this. Now? I'm relieved. Gives me a chance to catch up. I've over 50 hours saved on the DVR. Mainly because I've a couple of shows that I'm beginning to wonder why I'm bothering taping.

The Good Place

Frigging NBC puts a ton of commercials right before the last five minutes of the show, so as a result, the show runs over the allotment and my DVR cuts off the last two-three seconds, which are over the credits. (It's a nifty trick to get me to watch whatever is programmed after it. Which would be fine if I liked what they programmed after it. I do not. Which is why I don't remember to tape it just so I can see the last two seconds of The Good Place.)

Anyhow...I asked the FB Good Place Fanboard which is entitled "The Boundless Void"...



ME: Can anyone tell me what happened in the last two-three seconds of the Good Place? (Huge Spoiler Space) Did they go into the Boundless Void?
Poster: Yep.
Me: Thank you. It cut off when Janet was explaining all the risks of going into the Boundless Void.

I was actually relieved that the demons showed up en force and drove them into the Boundless Void, because I wasn't liking the alternatives. (Janet and Michael hunting down the Accountant, while the other four hung out with Doug and took care of his pets and the local sociopath. That joke worked in this episode, but it would not have worked stretched out over the course of five episodes.)

This episode did a rather good job of exploring the philosophy of how making everyone happy, often at the great detriment of oneself, in the hopes of gaining points to get into the Afterlife isn't such a great idea. (ie. Being a Slave to Other's Happiness or the Utopian Happiness Duff.) Starred Michael McKeon as the Happiness Duff, Doug. And it revealed how there is something wrong with the Good Place's point calculation system.

I'm still wondering about the character of Jason, who to date, exhibits the least growth. (YMMV, although no one has convinced me yet.)

Eleanor: We have to leave immediately. You go out that exit, and we'll go out -
Jason (lighting up a maltov cocktail): Or we can just - here you go suckers -
Eleanor: No!

Later..

Michael: What we need to find is some evidence.
Jason: No, Michael, you are confused. Evidence is not something you want to find, it is something you want to destroy so you won't go to jail.
Michael: Jason, could you please go find me the coaster that fell behind that pillar over there?
Jason: Oh sure...(of he goes like a puppy)
Michael: Sorry, I needed a 30 second break.
Group: We totally understand.

Yep. Right there with you. Jason is slowly moving into grating territory.

This is a weird show for me. Usually, I care most about the characters -- in this series, I care more about the philosophical humor and satire. I don't know why this is...but I haven't really emotionally invested in a situation comedy character since the 1990s. It's why when people write long-heart wrenching bits on these characters, I find I'm channeling Spike from Buffy, "I'm paralyzed with not caring all that much" -- which is what is keeping me from falling in love with or obsessing over this show. I like a few of the characters a great deal, can even sort of identify (Eleanor, Michael, and Chidi), but I don't love them, and the other three, I find tolerable at best and grating at worst.

That said...there were some great bits here.

The scene where Michael and Janet realize what is wrong with this picture. That Doug is truly miserable and not a good representative, or if he is one...there's clearly something off about the system. This bit makes fun of the "do good deeds to get into heaven" religious philosophy that is at the forefront of many religions.

And the aforementioned ones regarding how they were going to escape. And Eleanor figuring out they were surrounded by Demons (providing an extra weight and meaning to what Michael had shown her earlier -- nice plotting there).



Crazy Ex-Girlfriend -- I fast-forwarded through about 80% of this weeks episode. I'm finding it harder and harder to watch. And not at all funny. There were two musical numbers -- but neither really worked. I can see why this is the final season. And they are doing a good job of wrapping things up, I guess. I'm hanging in there out of curiosity, but it's fading.

Grey's Anatomy and Station 19 both ended on cliff-hangers. Liked Grey's better. Station 19 hasn't quite found it's footing.

blackish -- did a tribute to Prince, which was a wee bit too over-the-top. It made fun of people who'd never heard of Prince, but was a tad over-the-top in how it went about it.

Comments

[dar_vidder]

From the beginning I've thought the point calculation system was bogus on The Good Place so I'm glad we seem to be headed to that conclusion on the show. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reveals later this season is that NO ONE gets into the good place.

Two things that bugged me about the storyline with Doug are

1) Wouldn't all of his good deeds not count since he admitted he was only doing them to get enough points? I thought one of the big lessons at the end of last season was that you're damned if you're only doing good things with the idea of reward in mind. But early in the episode Michael and Janet seem to skate right by that as if Doug's points wouldn't be snatched right back by the higher-ups...

2) I also thought there was a case to be made for 'doing right' by that sociopathic boy by setting boundaries and teaching him how to grow into a better person. It's like parents who spoil their kids to the point that they become bratty, selfish, and uncaring of others. In the moment they may be making their kids happy superficially, but in the long run they're doing more damage than good. I guess I was just disappointed that neither Michael nor Janet even tried to point out to Doug that sometimes you need to look at the big picture, to look at the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

[dlgood]

Re:1
In that regard, Doug would be in a similar boat to Tahani - who realized that charity in service of ego was not truly charity. Michael and Janet were too captivated by the myth of Dough, before seeing the reality of Doug. Shawn assumes Doug is going to "The Bad Place"

Re: 2
I Concur.

[shadowkat]

Agreed with Dlgood on both. In addition..

1. I thought one of the big lessons at the end of last season was that you're damned if you're only doing good things with the idea of reward in mind. But early in the episode Michael and Janet seem to skate right by that as if Doug's points wouldn't be snatched right back by the higher-ups...

This is interesting. Shawn, Michael's old boss, knows Doug will end up in the Bad Place along with everyone else. He's just after the four escapees. Which leads me to believe Dar_vidder may be right in the below assessment:

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reveals later this season is that NO ONE gets into the good place.

Which would explain why Shawn is so keen on getting these four back.

Also, it is interesting that Michael and Janet forget that point. After making a big deal about "just doing good for the sake of doing good and hoping in the end it makes a difference" or "helping others get into the Good Place" even if they can't" - they revert to...what can we do to get in?

Reminds me of Angel, who decides in S2 that he will just do good to do good, and not worry about the Shanshu, but of course reverts back to type...and needs the reward.

Are the writers making a point about the human need for a reward? Can people be good, be happy, without being rewarded for it? And can they learn that -- or do they always revert back to type (like they did in S2, whenever Michael snapped his fingers.)

2. I also thought there was a case to be made for 'doing right' by that sociopathic boy by setting boundaries and teaching him how to grow into a better person. It's like parents who spoil their kids to the point that they become bratty, selfish, and uncaring of others.

This gets into another theme -- is it possible to become a better person, to be redeemed, and how much of that is dependent on how others treat you? Eleanor is horrible to people and to a degree her parents and those around her encourage that -- she doesn't begin to change until she has a near death experience, and even then...it's really not until she meets Michal and then Chidi that she tries to change much at all.

The sociopathic kid has no reason to be good, it seems. Doug enables him to be a sociopath. By trying to make him happy, he is enabling the kids...cruelty.

Why Michael and Janet don't pick up on that...is somewhat perplexing. You'd think they would? It bugged me as well. Yes, it made for a great joke at the bar -- where they tell the gang to do whatever the scary kid wants. But also didn't quite jibe with the rest of the episodes where they appear to be telling people to do the exact opposite. I think meeting Doug (who Michael and Janet believe get into the Good Place) sort of threw them off their game?

[dlgood]

in this series, I care more about the philosophical humor and satire. I don't know why this is...

I can't speak for everyone, but as much as all shows are about the characters in them... this show is just explicitly about its philosophical explorations, far more than its characters.

The show essentially handwaved how Eleanor could afford to move to Australia and live there, and didn't really consider what her actual life there would be like. Right, they just gave her lottery ticket money. Because its not interested in what a day in the life is like for her. (even more than other shows handwave characters days...)

They may not be giving you enough of her to care. And its not like Eleanor couldn't be relatable if they spent more time inside her life.

In terms of what the show does, I feel like this episode was one they had to cover. That Doug could guess the "point system of the universe" but still not live a worthy life.

He is trying to appease people, and not hurt people -- he's being a happiness pump. But he's not actually producing joy.

Like, he's doing what the bullying kid wants, but is that really actually making the boy a happy person? Doug's not happy. He doesn't make Michael or Janet happy. And I'm gonna guess he makes life harder for everyone who encounters him. Kind of like Chidi did for his friends in life....

I'm not really one to "invest" in SitCom characters. Though I've invested in situations. This show would have lit up the old ATPO boards, but in much nerdier ways....

[shadowkat]

Agree. That's a rather good assessment of how I'm viewing the show as well. It works very well on a nerdy level and the people who loved Buffy/Angel in nerdy ways, similarly love this show. But it lacks the emotional investment of Buffy and Angel for pretty much all the reasons you state above. [Although, there are a few people including cjlasky, who are invested in the characters and have found those moments, and don't require more. So this may well be YMMV thing? (shrugs))

In terms of what the show does, I feel like this episode was one they had to cover. That Doug could guess the "point system of the universe" but still not live a worthy life.

He is trying to appease people, and not hurt people -- he's being a happiness pump. But he's not actually producing joy.

Yeah, I think you're right. They needed to show the person who plays by the rules perfectly. Michael and Janet see him as the "poster child" for who can get into the Good Place, and a "legend". He's the "perfect" human.

Yet, after about thirty minutes in his company, possibly less (time works differently on sitcoms), they realize -- this is the perfect human? He's a Happiness Pump...but, wait, Michael states, he's not making us happy.

I loved the satire of it. Mainly because I have a lot people on FB and elsewhere, who keep preaching how we all have to do this, that, and the other thing to be truly good people. Such as being on a "plant based diet", "eating only lentils", not using anything but recyclable goods, being kind to bullies..etc. To the point that it sort of is ridiculous. In this episode the writers really underline how ridiculous some of it is.

At the same time they are doing a lovely job of making fun of the metaphysical/philosophical point system. Which is sort of a flashback to S1. They made fun of the point system in S1 as well.

I'm not really one to "invest" in SitCom characters. Though I've invested in situations.

I think it is really hard to. Because each episode is just fifteen-twenty minutes long with ten to fifteen minutes of commercials. That's not a lot of time, even with 22 episodes, to build characters and relationships and tell jokes.

Some have succeeded, but not many. And usually the characters do stay somewhat stagnant, because it works better for the audience, similar to episodic procedurals actually.

The Good Place has a bit of a problem -- because it is more serialized than most sitcoms truly are. There's no stand-a-lones. While Big Bang, the Connors, Murphy Brown, Community, The Office, Seinfield, Fraiser, Cheers, etc...could all be watched out of order or intermittently, you can't do that with the Good Place.

It sort of sits outside of what a typical sitcom does. And I think you are right, the writers aren't really that concerned about characters or writing a situational comedy, but writing a nerdy philosophical satire with relatable characters who most likely are more representative of various philosophical tropes and inside jokes than they are actual people.

[cjlasky7]

The Good Place, as you've mentioned before, isn't so much a situation comedy as a fantasy/philosophical discourse with sitcom overtones. This episode, even though it was very funny in places, verged on something like philosophical horror: poor Doug Forcett--painfully, terribly aware of the structure of the afterlife, twists himself into knots and drains every last bit of joy in this life so he can be happy in the next. Michael and Janet immediately realize something is horribly wrong, with Doug, with his wretched existence and with the system that would drive him to such madness. (Even worse, Doug's efforts are futile.)

Michael McKean plays Doug as a tragic figure. He's not a fool or an idiot, because we know he's absolutely right about the point system and he's smart--based on what he knows-- not to take any chances with his eternal reward. But he's tragic because he doesn't know that the point system is something only a demon could love. (And I think we'll be getting more on that before S3 ends.)

I really, REALLY enjoyed Soul Squad vs. Bad Place demons Texas death match, especially Tahani (cue stick fu!), Jason (8-ball fu!) and Janet (triangular rack fu!). You know I have a fanboy crush on D'Arcy Carden, and I'm looking forward to spending an entire episode inside Janet's Boundless Void. (Hmmm....that last sentence didn't come out right...)

(Personally, I enjoy all the characters on the show except Jason--and even he gets a smile out of me once in a while. Sometimes, though, I wish Janet could Vulcan mind meld some of her infinite knowledge to Jason just so he can get up to speed.)

******

I loved Prince and his music, and I have to credit black-ish for their enthusiasm and the note-perfect costuming and choreography. But I have to admit, my favorite bit was the tag: Charlie, dressed in Prince's powder blue cloud-covered one piece, describing the video for "Raspberry Beret" and Dre and his bosses bailing out. Very funny.

[shadowkat]

I think, as stated in the posts above, the show works on a intellectual level for me but not at all on an emotional one. I'm just not feeling it the way you are. And I think dlgood may be right...it doesn't really give me enough of the characters for me to either relate to them or emotionally invest. (Not that I tend to invest in Sitcom characters any how...it's rare.)

I think it's one of those YMMV things. (shrugs). Because it obviously works for you on an emotional level and for quite a few others online.

I think you may be right about the "point system" -- and that it is possible no one gets into the Good Place because the system is rigged. Hence, a point system only a demon can love.

Doug was far too satirically over the top for me to find remotely tragic or care much about. Sorry. I did find him funny in places, mainly because I have one too many plant-based diet gurus on FB. It's very hard for me to emotionally invest in satirical, metaphorical or allegorical characters. This show relies heavily, possibly too heavily on satire and allegory -- distancing me a bit from the characters. It's a problem I've always had with satire and allegory. Also parody. Exaggeration comedy does not work for me. The Good Place works ...because for the most part it is rather subtle and the humor tends to be more intellectual.

I do agree that the fight was rather funny, although I spent most of it wondering why no one bothered to try and close or get rid of the bad place porthole. Maybe they just couldn't?

[yourlibrarian]

Frigging NBC puts a ton of commercials right before the last five minutes of the show, so as a result, the show runs over the allotment and my DVR cuts off the last two-three seconds, which are over the credits. (It's a nifty trick to get me to watch whatever is programmed after it.

It is indeed. I've found we generally need to record 1 minute before and 1 minute after most shows to catch the whole thing.

I loved how Doug came to be an actual factor in the show instead of just a running joke.

Jason is also the most grating to me but I find that I do enjoy the characters. Also, the fact that he could get Chidi to lighten up and enjoy the pool game was a plus.

That said the show's premise would be enough to keep things going on its own, especially because it's constantly evolving.

I'm afraid I reached the end point with CE Girlfriend last season. I just stuck it out to the end because it was still questionable whether it would have another season but I couldn't deal with it anymore.

[shadowkat]

Crazy Ex...does do something The Good Place hasn't, which is actually develop the characters. That's my one quibble with The Good Place and where I agree with dlgood, we're told very little about these characters. They are mainly tropes.
And that distances me from them. I love the show on an intellectual level, and for the most part enjoy the characters mainly due to the actors portraying them, but...it's not enough for me to care.

But...to be honest that's my difficulty with sitcoms generally speaking...I find it difficult to care about the characters over any lengthy period of time.