Stuff...

[shadowkat]

Well, I set up an interview with another staffing company for
Thursday. So my week is just about complete. Hesistant to call more. Have two staffing companies at the moment. And two I've sent resumes too. Maybe I'll call two more next week? (Should
confess and state how much I despise interviewing with staffing companies...all promise, no deliverance, and they have a nasty habit of blaming the applicant for that.) Feeling edgy at the moment, afraid to hope, afraid not to. Trying to figure out what else I should do to prepare for this interview tomorrow. I need to go in with attitude. Apparently that's how Marsters got the job as Spike - he went in with the view it was his role. Attitude! It's all about attitude! (Except she thinks, I did go in with attitude on other jobs and still didn't get hired...)

Some tid-bits on Moonlight Rising Con have shown up on whedonesque. These support my gut reactions to GiTR which was that JM was doing GiTR for pretty much the same reasons we write fanfic. It's his hobby. He has no delusions that he can *really* sing or have a career as a musician. He states clearly at the con that after two years of voice lessons he still can't cut it and he can barely play guitare. He doesn't feel the same level of confidence singing in a band that he does performing as an actor. I got that watching him on stage.
Also? Apparently he's gotten funding to film Macbeth, and may do a Spike TV movie in the near future.

Feeling a little leery of the S6 ATS fanfic initiatives out there - particularly regarding the character of Spike. I admit, Spike is tough. I haven't tried to write the character since my Fanged Four outing. Not sure I trust myself to write for either Spike or Angel. You have to make sure you keep up the duality - self-loathing/bravada/swagger/poet. And you have to be careful not to make him a "bad" poet, Spike doesn't consider himself a bad poet necessarily and no one is necessarily bad. Don't let your own issues get in the way of character. If you want a *really* good fanfic character sketch on Spike - try the "Lydia's Thesis" that a group of academic writers wrote a year ago. Another writer who has done a good job with showing the duality of good and bad in William is Peasant and herselfnyc - on the Buggered website. (Yes, there's lots of NC-17 content, but if you check out AllAboutSpike.com you can find stuff that isn't. Lydia's Thesis has no NC-17 content that I am aware of.) In their fics - there's that obsessiveness in his character - Spike obsesses over things. He isn't a planner. He goes with his gut. Emotion, raw. He is impulsive. That's why he can't be the leader - he doesn't strategize, he just does. Unlike Angel, Spike likes people, likes to be around them socializing. He has no problems with women - Spike isn't William who couldn't get a girl. This guy gets girl's just by winking at them. Unlike Angel, Spike loves food, is a sensationalist. HE enjoys feeling things. He likes to let it all hang out. He will and does put his foot in his mouth. And he likes women with power.

The danger many people make is thinking Spike was like Andrew or Warren as William. Do not make the mistake of drawing too close a line between other characters. Also don't write for a character that you are biased against, the reader will sense it. Ugh. Enuf of this crap, I got work to do. I'm sure no one cares what I think about all of this. Besides I said I was moving away from it...Damn! All edgy regarding other things going on this week. Damn - I wish someone would just hire me already, being at home hunting work and worrying about it is driving me crazy!


Okay off to hunt more stuff on Liberty Mutual and check job want ads...much fun.

Comments

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

Our ideas on Spike are very similar, and I'm mindful of everything you said. I've very interested in your views on Spike and was going to ask for your input anyway. I like Spike, I like how he enjoys life, how he accepts his faults, how he is able to change and grow. He's not William, that was over one hundred years ago. And he's not souless Spike, or love's bitch, anymore either.

Good luck on the job hunt.

Thanks...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Been busy today - preparing for interview, setting up another one, etc, so sorry didn't get back to you. ;-)

I like Spike, I like how he enjoys life, how he accepts his faults, how he is able to change and grow. He's not William, that was over one hundred years ago. And he's not souless Spike, or love's bitch, anymore either.

I agree.

What's interesting about Spike and Angel is how they are now mirror reflections of what they once were. And ensouled how each incorporated that prior being.

William was insecure with women and people, at a loss for words, stuttering, shied away from violence, found the whole idea of a fight reprehensible and hateful, preferred books and love poems, spoke in an upper-crust accent, only secure with a powerful female mother figure who stroked him made him feel safe - Spike is the opposite, Spike is secure with women and people, loves a good brawl, prefers to study fighting techniques, when he write poetry it can be bawdy, has a North London working man's accent, loves bars, loves to drink, loves violence - gets off on it actually, and when confronted with a strong/powerful female mother figure feels conflicted and gets a little obsessive - he wants to challenge them, maybe even slay them.
Mirror image, not opposites really just reflections.

With a soul some of William has seeped back in, he no longer wishes to kill that strong female figure - worked out that demon, but he still is drawn to her. He also goes out and does poetry in public.
He pulls his punches. The violence while still enjoyable isn't as enjoyable as it was. It's tainted.

Re: Thanks...

[hankat.livejournal.com]

I think this is where the happenings in Lies My Parents Told Me are so important. William loved his mother and that part of William never died in the vampire but was perverted. He never thought past the gut need to have his mother around him always. Instead of allowing her to die because it was her time he attempted to cheat death and bring her back. Instead of his mother he got back a monster that was intolerable. His vision of his mother was ruined and he did the right thing by dusting her. It also moulded him into the type of monster he became. Not good enough were the incidental deaths he participated in for "food", he needed to destroy a strong female. This leads him to Slayers who he kills for the thrill and attention. Slayers are first his damnation and ultimately his salvation when he meets Buffy and everything he does next is for her. In Lies, Spike is able to work out what was real and what was the perversion in the mother he created out of love. Without the soul love becomes perverted and selfish. But as he was capable of loving at all, Spike finally finds his way to a soul and the beginning of the end of his journey. Losing the jacket/second skin in The Girl in Question is the last stripping away of what he thought he should be to becoming who he is.

Rufus

Re: Thanks...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'd agree with that assessment. Yes, I think that's exactly what the writers intended.

[deevalish.livejournal.com]

I know you said that you were trying to move away from the character, and I know a bit of how you feel about it, I'm trying too but I never really let any of "hang out" so still not moving. But I think that you advice on the writing of Spike is extremely valuable. I'll also take a look at peasant and herself's writings, too. When it comes to Spike I wouldn't know what is what, I tend to just let things jsut wash over me and things will either stick with me or not.

And JM has gotten the funding to do "MacBeth"? Wow. I'm not sure how I feel about that. He's been talking about this pet project for so long that I'm a little afraid. Afraid that after all this time that when all is said and done, that it's just that, a pet project. I want, for him and for me, it to turn out great. More than great. But sometimes these projects are so close to you that you can't see it for what it really is. I hope that whoever works with him on it, that they are brave enough to say these things to him.

Thanks...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Trying desperately to keep myself focused right now on job search first, everything else second, not that that hasn't been the case for over two years now but still ;-) (It's hard, job search is boring, tedious and the height of frustration at the moment. Much more fun to play games with fanfic.)

I know I promised I wouldn't say anything regarding Ats S6 fanfic efforts, but the Spike stuff has me straining at the bit. I want to scream: "no, no, no you nit - Spike wouldn't do that. Or he's already had that arc about learning to be a hero for himself twice now, can't you do something else with him? It's getting boring! And he did become one not for Angel's reasons or Buffy's, hello, re-watch those episodes again. Oh god, just kill him off and don't even attempt it, I can't bear to watch!" Sigh. I need help. So pulling back. Refraining. Ugh. LOL!


And JM has gotten the funding to do "MacBeth"?

According to BAPs (who posted on whedonesque) - he got anywhere from $15 -50 million. Amazing. But he is a good producer. He's not directing, just producing and starring from what I gather from the report. He did state he wasn't interested in direction. It will take three years and it's why he's no longer going to be working with the band after this summer. It came through sometime Tuesday or Wed is my guess. (Which explains why Charlie DeMars at the gig I saw on Thurs looked like he wanted to tear James throat out. LOL! While the drummer and other guitarest were giddy with love and hugging him and he was giddy.)

I'm not sure how I feel about that. He's been talking about this pet project for so long that I'm a little afraid. Afraid that after all this time that when all is said and done, that it's just that, a pet project. I want, for him and for me, it to turn out great. More than great. But sometimes these projects are so close to you that you can't see it for what it really is.

Yep, pet projects can blow up in your face. And there's lots of superstition in the theater world regarding the Scottish play. OTOH,
Whedon's pet project years ago was Buffy The Vampire Slayer which he did for his mother partly. So it can work out in an interesting way.

Good luck!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Have figured out that mornings work best for them or late afternoon.
Lunch bad. Too early? Not in. Ugh - phone tag. Not fun.

I got a little research done on that potential real/permanent job interview tomorrow. So after lunch will call maybe to reconfirm.

I forget why he wants to do it so badly, but I remember he's been talking about it for a good long while.

He hates how others have filmed it - Lady Macbeth is portrayed as a weakling and MacBeth isn't shown to be complicated enough. Interesting play. Can't say I blame him. I've seen two productions, listened to one, and the Lady Macbeth/Macbeth dynamic is fascinating.
Curious to see his interpretation.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

If you don't mind, I'm going to post your Spike thoughts over at _grr_argh_. I was pretty amazed at the paucity of thoughts on Spike. No one really seems to want to get into his arc, or if they do, it's pretty thin and unimaginative. Thought there were more Spike enthusiasts out there in the world and among the ATPoers.

I don't want him becoming a character who just reacts to events around him and has no character arc of his own.

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

I am! I'm just trying to marshal my thoughts. There will be much more on SPike from me.

Oh, hey, no pressure here.....

[cjlasky.livejournal.com]

It's just that if we don't do Spike exactly right, we'll LOSE HALF OUR AUDIENCE RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. I'm with Arethusa. If we're going to have a major Spike plotline interwoven with all our Angel-y goodness, I'd rather have a long, hard think and come up with something inspired.

Yes, I'm thinking. (No, I haven't been inspired yet.)

oh, please...like it'll make any difference

[(Anonymous)]

"It's just that if we don't do Spike exactly right, we'll LOSE HALF OUR AUDIENCE RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX."

The only question is which half. If the portrayal comes off as even slightly positive, you'll lose the anti-Spike contingent; the least bit negative & you'll lose the Spike fans. Face it, you writers are screwed either way.

Me, I'm getting frustrated just reading the bits & pieces I'm picking up from this thread! I wanted to get in on the ground floor of the project, but I had some q's. for LiveJournal.com about their privacy policy & the terms I'd have to agree to to open an account. (Just an account, so I can read the locked stuff on the Sixfic. Not gonna actually have an lj.) But my modem went invisible (for 5 days! arrghh!) before I emailed them, & now that I have, I haven't had a reply yet. See, I'm one'a those people who always read the small print before I sign/click. That's why you haven't heard from me on _grr_argh_ yet. >sigh< Soon, I hope.

--anom

Re: oh, please...like it'll make any difference

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

Face it, you writers are screwed either way.

LOL! Too right! But I think we can take it. After all, I managed to anger both Spike lovers and Spike haters in the past.

I hope we see you very soon.

Re: oh, please...like it'll make any difference

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Face it, you writers are screwed either way.

LOL! Too right! But I think we can take it. After all, I managed to anger both Spike lovers and Spike haters in the past.

Heh. Nautibitz gives some excellent advice regarding the writing of fanfic in her livejournal - "if you project your own neuroses onto the characters in your fic, just be prepared/and not surprised when others blast you for it".

I'd worry more about achieving some semblance of agreement amongst yourselves before worrying about an audience. Fanfic readers are a fickle bunch. If they like it and see a resemblance to their vision of the character, their own fantasy, or something that fascinates them in the fic represented - they'll read. If not? They won't.

The trick regarding fanfic writing is to remember that your audience is faceless and transisent(sp?), not to mention fickle. They also come to the fic with very strong ideas regarding the characters you are writing about. Ideas bordering on obsessive in some cases. Otherwise they wouldn't bother reading fanfic to begin with. It's not like writing a tv show or novel with your own characters created by you - you are playing with characters created by someone else and that have a built in audience. That audience comes to your fic with certain preconceptions they might not have if you were writing your own characters.

Example of one reader: I will not read a fanfic that has Spike painted as a narcissist wandering about abusing women and making obnoxious comments as thorn in Angel's side while Angel is being broodingly heroic and struggling with his dark side yet oh so tolerant and romantic. That wouldn't interest me. It has been written and there are people who enjoy that type of fic. But I wouldn't waste a minute reading it, even if it was written by my best friend. Why? Because it doesn't have anything in it that intrigues me - something that pulls. I'm far more interested in how the character struggles against their internal demons and obsessions. And how they fail or pull out of that.

Re: oh, please...like it'll make any difference

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

I knew it would be difficult, to understand where ME has been and guess where they would go, while not letting my own biases influence me. And I very much want a product as much like the show as possible, to me there's no point in doing it if we don't. But mainly I hope we're entertaining, that people have as much fun reading our work as I do reading cjl's, Rochefort's, HonorH's, and so on. I don't read fanfic (no, really!) and I expect many people won't read this.

Yes, the first step is finding agreement amoung ourselves-and the second is that we all agree to go by the production committee's final say in plot and character. It's tricky. I hope we can manage it, and make a story that we're proud of.

Re: oh, please...like it'll make any difference

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I hope we're entertaining, that people have as much fun reading our work as I do reading cjl's, Rochefort's, HonorH's, and so on. I don't read fanfic (no, really!) and I expect many people won't read this.

Yes, you do. HonorH, cjl and Rochefort's fiction was all
fanfiction. No different than anything else out there.

Re: oh, please...like it'll make any difference

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

I have nothing against fanfic. (And I don't mean that in a some-of-my-best-friends-are-fanfic way.) Heck, I'm writing it. I read the fic of people I know because I enjoy their other writings. I hope others will do the same.

Don't mind at all...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I actually pulled my punches a bit. Spike is a tough character.
Actually there are three characters that are really tough for people to pull off well in fanfic - Spike, Angel and Buffy. Why? People get emotionally invested or have strong feelings about them. Half-way through most Spike-centric fic, which features Angel, Angel turns into a jerk. Halfway through most Angel centric fic, which features Spike - Spike turns into a jerk, or ends up getting lost.

Actually - I liked OnM's brief sketch on Spike and his allusion to
a Illyria/Spike relationship which wasn't necessarily sexual but could explore Spike's obsessive tendencies and his odd fascination with women of power. (A mirror if you will of Wes, who was the opposite, Wes became obsessed with women who were damsels or pure in his head at least. Spike becomes obsessed with women are strong.
Or rather that he perceives as strong.)The only mistake OnM made in that sketch was the idea Spike would call for help from Buffy. Dlgood was correct - he'd never do that. (It's established why in Girl In Question.) Also Spike would *never* hit on Nina - she isn't his type.
He seems to look at Nina the seem way Angel looked at Anne or at Harmony. Be careful of having Spike or Angel hit on women in the story.

What I keep looking for in Spike fic is:
1. How he dealt with the soul - and what informs the current character. Spike and Angel almost seem to be mirror reflections of the men they once were. William (insecure with women)/Spike (completely secure), Liam (secure with women)/Angel (nervous around them) (ie. How we handle identity and shifts in our own identity over time - we were once this, but now we something completely different from it, yet also similar.)

2. His relationship with Angel - what relationship have these two built over the years? What are the dynamics of it? How do they relate?
One of the reasons I wanted a S6 was to see how ME would pursue that dynamic. They strike me as brothers in arms more than father/son. But that's just me.

Just some suggestions. Take it or leave it.

Re: Don't mind at all...

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

That's good, because I already posted it. ; )

And now I'm going to post this, too.

Re: Don't mind at all...

[deevalish.livejournal.com]

We'll take it, S'kat.

Re: Don't mind at all...

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

I second that. :)

Fathers and Angels

[hankat.livejournal.com]

Fathers are a thing that neither Spike or Angel seem to know what to do with. Both are men shaped by the women around them. Both react to many man in an adversarial way, unless they are perceived as harmless. Note the change in attitude in Angel towards Wesley as Wesley became more dark and more threatening. The change had nothing to do with the fear that Wesley could destroy him but the recognition that Wesley was no longer quite the follower he once was in season one. The Watcher in Wesley slowly surfaced in that he stayed with Angel to do the most damage to the evil around him as much as the hope that Angel would get his Shan shu. Spike has next to no real relationship with Wes past calling him Percy a lot. Wes is closest to what Spike had been and perhaps would make him feel uncomfortable.

Now to the 2 vampires. Neither would follow the directions of a father. All you have to do is look at how Angelus reacted to The Master. Angel may have been Spikes "Dad" but their relationship looked more like that of siblings, very competative siblings. Both wanted Buffy but if they are in proximity to each other, the girl in question is forgotten in favor of the contest between the 2 brothers.

Rufus

On purpose

[hankat.livejournal.com]

I've stayed away from Spike as a character this year even though what has been going on is interesting. For me paying attention to Angel was what I had to do. But Angel is a result of the characters around him and for me the most interesting ones are Wesley, Spike, Gunn, Fred/Illyria, Lindsey in that order. Lorne got good near the end culminating in his final act for Angel.

Add to it the fact I've been blamed for the cult of Spike...;)

Rufus

Re: On purpose

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Add to it the fact I've been blamed for the cult of Spike...;)

You were? Oh, the Angel After Spike board...people are
so silly. It was a good board. Had some decent conversations.

Honestly people can be such hypocrites. Oh, it's okay to be emotionally invested in character X, but not in character Y. The reason I'm certain this occurs is competition.

Re: On purpose

[hankat.livejournal.com]

Oh no not the Angel after Spike board, generally and I mean in a tongue in cheek way. The one who first said that was Malandanza. The seperate board worked in that people had a place to cool off. It also helped that the writers didn't really play up the who is better aspect in a way that would have gotten everyone reved up to bicker again.

Part of the reason I've said less this season is mainly as a Trollop I've usually gotten information first or has used information people have forgotten to figure out what is going on. I felt it better to be guarded in what I said in case I spoiled someone.

Rufus

attitude

[(Anonymous)]

Good luck on the interviews, S'kat! Temp work can suck, yeah, but it's better than nothing. On the other hand, I've had some decent experiences w/temp assignments.

"Apparently that's how Marsters got the job as Spike - he went in with the view it was his role. Attitude! It's all about attitude!"

Yep. And if you don't have it, fake it. I saw in another of your lj entries that you have some acting experience--that should stand you in good stead on interviews! The part you're playing: the exact right person for that job. And one who doesn't hate interviewing....

Anyway. I hope the payoff for all the yucky calling & hunting & interviewing & researching & other "fun" stuff comes soon, with gainful employment in a place you like working!

--anom