Game of Thrones Series Finale - S8- Episode 6, the Iron Throne

[shadowkat]

So, I finally saw the episode tonight. The only spoilers I had (outside of various theories) was that 1) it had lots of plot-twists, and 2) it was a fair and reasonable ending.

Eh. Since most of us pretty much predicted the ending after last week's episode, I'd say it didn't have any plot-twists and was pretty much predictable. (I wasn't surprised by any of it, not really), and 2) it was a fair ending, if a slightly ...disappointing one? I've mixed feelings at any rate. But then I've always had mixed feelings about this series, so what's new?

Say what you will of this series, it's always been beautifully filmed. From a cinematic angle alone -- it's a gorgeous piece of television. There's an amazing shot with Dany and the Dragon towards the beginning.

Equally well-acted.

There are scenes in this episode that took my breath away -- due purely to their photographic beauty and splendor. From a perspective of visual mastery, alone, Game of Thrones remains at the top of its game. The writing, however, I'm not so sure about. But, I've always struggled with the writing, long before the television series was made. There's something underneath GRR Martin's story that bothers me and always has. I'm not entirely sure the story works on a sociological-political level, and considering I seldom care much about this or critique stories on this level -- the fact that I noticed it and it bothered me, means it probably royally pissed off those who do.

A lot happens in the beginning of the episode. In fact everything happens in the beginning, then it's just wrap-up. Reminding a little bit of the last act of Tolkien's Return of the King. (I didn't like Return of the King, by the way, neither the book or the film -- both drug and felt off to me. So that probably says something right there?) Endings are admittedly hard to pull off in a long-running serial. The temptation is to go for 1) the happily ever after neat wrap up, tie everything up, leave a few openings, and follow the status guo. OR 2) go in the other extreme and kill everyone. Luckily we got option 1, but honestly I think they had to go in that direction. The third choice is the more subtle and ambiguous ending, which I'd hoped for early in the season and gave up on roughly around episode 4. That's hard to do, and the only series I've seen sort of pull it off are The Wire, The Sopranoes, and possibly Angel.

This series went for The MASH ending (MASH had the most watched series finale in television history entitled The Long Goodbye, and it was bitter-sweet, and sentimental and completely unrealistic, but what the heck, it was a satisfying conclusion to the characters arcs) -- the sentimental ending, where everything ends well or as well as can be expected. The Starks -- the remaining ones that we've been following for the last seven seasons are victorious and go off where they want to go, happily ever after. The others...not so much.

That said, there are some nice canapes or moments here...

1. Those who predicted Tyrion would talk Jon Snow into killing Dany were right. And it is handled rather well for the most part. And while Dinkalage and Harrington act the hell out of the scene, the speech Tyrion gives Jon -- is hardly one we all have not heard before. The gist of it is basically Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness -- "he whole looks too deeply into the abyss gets swallowed by it" or "when fighting monsters be careful not to become one yourself" -- this speech is echoed in Coppola's deeply flawed by cinematic masterpiece, Apocalpyse Now, where Martin Sheen looks into the eyes of the Mad Colonel, who has become a monster due to war.

Tyrion says a lot of things in his speech, and while a lot them worked for me, many troubled me. Because as he spoke I couldn't help but see the pattern emerging ...these writers don't like women very much [and ETA...I think may be racist?]. And I'm not sure they are even aware of it. I'm not sure many of the fans are. [Or the critics for that matter.] But it's troubling that the mad queens are both women who were raped and abused by men.[ETA: Even more troubling that we have a white haired woman save the enslaved in the East only to be killed as a mad tyrant in the West - with her ex-slave army looked at as her murderous and lowly followers. What is interesting though -- is how clean Dany and her Unsullied are, while everyone else apparently hasn't had a bath in six years.] And it's "white" men who stop them. Danerys becomes, as Tyrion states, a monster -- that we cheered on. She burned the bad guys, but over time she stopped being able to tell who were the bad guys. She's so convinced she's right...that it doesn't matter how she achieves her ends. [This series seems to heavily prefer white guys from snowy Northern climes.]

And love, he states is the death of duty. Or is it, as Jon states, Duty is the Death of Love? But I'm not sure the writers or the characters understand what love is. It was Shakespeare who said:

Love is not love which alters it when alteration finds, or bends with the remover to remove: O no! It is an ever fixed mark that looks on tempests and is never shaken; it is the star to every wandering bark whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.

Love is not for your sake or mine. It's about you. And it's not about possession. It's not death. It's life. The love they discuss is love that...is a kind of death, filled with desire for something that is not here. Is not real. And the desire to preserve that illusion of self inside another. Romantic love, familial love, tribal love -- where you wish to change that which you love to make it yours.

It can be argued that neither Jon nor Tyrion truly loved Dany. While Jorah, Drogon, Missandra, and Grey Worm did. For Jon and Tyrion saw what they wanted to see, not what was there -- a woman who walked through fire, and was enslaved and raped along the way.

Tyrion asks Jon if he would have done the same thing Dany did. Jon doesn't know, and Tyrion states it is important that you do know. My guess, is he's right, he doesn't know. None of us do. He's not Dany. He's a man. He's never been raped. And everything he's been through, which is a lot, doesn't hold a candle to what she went through as a woman in that world, or what his sisters survived.

A better question is would Sansa have done it? Or Ayra? Yes, she would.

And that's troubling.

Tyrion's speech rings hollow, as it rings true...it's too neat, too easy, too rehearsed and very thematic. For writers who state theme's are for eigth grade book reports, they certainly seem to enjoy putting them up in big bright letters across the screen -- subtly be damned.

But then spectacle has been where Game of Thrones has slowly over time slanted, and subtly to the extent it was there...has ebbed away. And that's not necessarily a bad thing all in all.

I enjoyed this scene -- do not get me wrong. I kept rewinding to listen, because Dinklage and Harrington act the hell out of it. And it is shot beautifully, but the words at times stuck in my craw. On the surface, I thought, yes, so true, but my mind being what it is...began to analyze and question. [I'm beginning to think this series works best, when you don't think too much about it. Surface only. No analysis.]

2. The next scene, which we know is inevitable from this one -- and just in case we're not certain, prior to Jon's scene with Tyrion, we see him confront Grey Worm and talk with Ayra, not to mention Davos, who in various ways demonstrate to him that if he does not act now, so many more will fall beneath Dany's righteous sword of flames. At this point Dany is an echo of Melissandre, the Serpent Sisters of Mereen, and Cersei, power made with righteousness and justice (which in reality stinks of self-centered revenge). It's not as if this hasn't been foreshadowed...by the line of powerful ladies proceeding her. So, when Jon is sniffed by Drogon and allowed to pass as friend not foe, we know and in fact want him to kill her -- and here she is in her vision, at last, standing in front of the iron throne.

Jon tries to talk her out of it...and realizing he has not succeeded gives in to her embrace, kissed and kills her at the same time, Mercifully. She's killed instantly.
With little pain. And her dragon feels it. And comes to her side, and in his grief (for a moment I wondered if he'd kill Jon, but the Dragon decides Jon is not to blame but her ill-conceived quest for her father's throne -- a throne made from iron swords and constructed by war. The Dragon melts the throne.

It's a great scene - beautifully filmed. Although I laughed through it, because the metaphors were a tad on the obvious and spectacle side. Also, it was sort of unbelievable. I mean, yes, we all know the battle for the throne is what destroyed everyone who fought for it. So of course the Dragon destroys the throne instead of Jon. But hey, cool dragon and thank you for leaving him be. He picks up Dany in his claws and flies off with her to parts unseen -- which is sort of what I hoped for. I love the dragon.

And Jon, after they convince the furious and righteous Grey Worm, is allowed to go to the North with the free-folk and Ghost, with whom he is finally reunited. Sentenced to a life of celibacy and childlessness in the cold north. (Honestly if he got married, had sex, and had kids, how would they know? Maybe Bran would -- but would he even care? Jon seemed to be pleased about it at any rate.) He finally recognizes and embraces his old and devoted friend, Ghost.

A lot of the episode felt like needless fan service. Actually everything after Dany's death. And much of it not all that logical -- oh let's give the throne and leadership duties to Bran, who stares into space and isn't here much of the time. Meanwhile Tyrion can actually rule instead, and no one will notice.

Or..such as someone writing a book about what happened entitled "A Song of Ice and Fire" and giving it to Tyrion. The council being made up of Brienne (who I still think should have died during the battle of Winterfell, although I'm glad she didn't and that she took Ser Jamie's place as the Leader of the King's Guard), Bronne, Davos (the man is unkillable), and Sam. And all the Stark kids walking off into their respective sunsets or riding off to them as the case may be.

I felt...disappointed by it all somehow. And understood finally what Kit Harrington meant when they asked him what he thought of the ending: "Disappointing. Epic. One of those two. Maybe both."

He's right, it's definitely "Epic" but it is also..disappointing. I wanted or expected more somehow...not now, not after last week...but prior to that point.
And I'm not sure what exactly. Probably a more logical ending? Less fanservice? Something thoughtful? Something that fit the promise I saw in the beginning?

I can't say there have been many, if any, good endings to television series. My mother and I were discussing this the other night. And as she pointed out, MASH, the highest viewed, was among the most disappointing. Most writers struggle with endings. It's hard to stick the ending. Beginnings are easier in a way. As are middle's but endings are hard. The one time I liked the ending of a story I wrote, I found that the rest of it did not work.

The endings I've come up with that I loved...I also have mixed feelings about.
I will state that this ending was better than what I feared --- and not as good as what I had once, long ago, envisioned. But are they ever?


[Oh as an aside, I read somewhere that many friendships had ended or been ripped apart by this series. And I thought, how sad. At the end of the day, it is just a television series, that you will forget in five to ten years from now. I know I will. I've seen far too many worse and far better ones now and I'm certain in the not too distant future, not too. One of many television series. There are more important things to get upset over or so one would think. Speaking of television series -- HBO previewed His Dark Materials and Watchmen, I am looking forward to both...].

Comments

[mefisto]

The word I'd use is "satisfied". I'm "satisfied" with the ending. I didn't predict Bran on the throne, and I'm not sure it makes that much sense, but I don't hate it. I think Jon and Arya got the right endings for them. I'd prefer Sansa as Lady of the North rather than Queen, and think it makes more sense, but eh.

I liked S8 the best of the seasons since S4. The weak parts were the second half of E4 and E6, but the rest was very good (E1) to outstanding (E2,3,5).

I have to admit that I kept watching after S5 only because you reassured me that S6 was better (it was), and because I wanted to see how it ended once I lost hope in GRRM finishing it. Maybe I'll read the next book, if there is one.

ETA: Overall, I think the show was a tremendous accomplishment. They had to compress a meandering narrative with hundreds of characters, and heavily reliant on internal narration and POV, into a watchable show. That alone was a real task, but they pulled off the best cinematography (my loose term that includes direction and special effects) of any show ever; they got the best actors on the best-cast show ever; they pulled off a huge number of outstanding set-piece scenes; and the music was outstanding throughout and sometimes brilliant. Yeah, there were plotholes, but I'm pretty forgiving of that in fantasy shows.

[shadowkat]

Just don't think too much about it. I woke up this morning and realized what was bugging me -- it's in a word? racist. So racist.

But if you don't look at the story as a whole and only focus on certain characters -- you won't see it. I saw it but was ignoring it, hand waving it, but I can't after that episode.

I have to admit that I kept watching after S5 only because you reassured me that S6 was better (it was), and because I wanted to see how it ended once I lost hope in GRRM finishing it. Maybe I'll read the next book, if there is one.

I should have stopped, I think. Good news? There won't be any more books in this series. GRR Martin is committed to doing the prequel.

[shadowkat]

I'd like to be wrong...but those scenes with Grey Worm and how they framed them, and how they...and who chose the king.

[shadowkat]

Hand-waving the troubling bits...that I mentioned in other responses. And none of the critics appear to have noticed, outside of the Public Medievalist...

No, it still doesn't quite work for me. It's a tremendous accomplishment in some respects and really not in others. A lot of the plot choices don't quite work. But at the end of the day? It's a television series that...bit off more than it could chew, and paved the way for more like it, hopefully more diversely cast and realized. His Dark Materials appears to be, as does a few others coming up. Westworld definitely is.

[dlgood]

I found the finale unsatisfying. But my problems with it stem from the well discussed flaws of S7-8 ... truncating storylines and character arcs to rush through plot points. The inconsistent elements (like travel times, lack of consistent parameters for things like ## of people in the armies, capabilities of weapons) are excusable in themselves but reflect a show that was not concerned with its details anymore. A flaw because genre shows build atop taking their details seriously.

Essentially, they'd painted themselves into a corner after last week and had to end it somehow. And this is an end.

Now, when Tyrion says "A good story will unite people" - at least one counterpoint would have been nice. Somebody looking at Bran saying "Really, that guy?"

We all have stories to tell - it's not that Bran's story is the best, but that Bran's story is the one Tyrion prefers. Wars are fought because people often don't agree on what the best story is. But, this is where this book ends, so we'll just have to imagine 10 years in the future.

And yeah - a show written pretty much entirely by white guys did not serve it's women or characters of color particularly well. Remember how Missandei and Grey Worm notice how the Northerners look on them with suspicion even as they've journeyed across the world to save them. How the Tarly's wouldn't ally with Daenerys because she had an army of "Foreign Savages". And the show's position on that seems to be that the Unsullied and Dothraki don't get a voice, and can be put on a boat and shipped away because no one cares about them now that Dany's dead. Who, yeah - white savior problems - was the only person who actually seemed to care about them. Or even bothered to learn their language.

[shadowkat]

Sadly, I agree with everything you've posted here. I find myself hunting reviews that articulate my thoughts...and even put together a post with many of them.

Essentially, they'd painted themselves into a corner after last week and had to end it somehow. And this is an end.

I think they may have done it earlier than that. Having read the books -- Martin painted himself into a corner way back during S5, after Jon Snow got killed and before he came back. The writers (D+D) aka the boys (as Emilia Clark (Dany) calls them) tried to write themselves out of it, by killing off characters Martin kept alive, and keeping characters he killed, and rewriting various bits. And it worked or so I thought, until roughly this season -- episode 3 works, but everything else after that not so much.

I can see places where they could have tweaked a few things -- and it would have worked much better. But you're right they lost the attention to detail that was apparent in S1-6, or thereabouts.

Now, when Tyrion says "A good story will unite people" - at least one counterpoint would have been nice. Somebody looking at Bran saying "Really, that guy?"

We all have stories to tell - it's not that Bran's story is the best, but that Bran's story is the one Tyrion prefers. Wars are fought because people often don't agree on what the best story is.

I thought the same thing. Dany, Sansa, Arya, and even the Princess of the Iron Ilses had far more gripping and interesting stories. Tyrion preferred the one that featured him. And I remember thinking -- you are all going to do what this guy tells you to do? Really? I think Grey Worm was just done and wanted to go home to Naath at that point. The heck with these people.

And Sansa to be fair did disagree -- and said, well, I'm going to be Queen of the North, you can do whatever you please. I'm not letting my baby brother who just sits in a chair and stares into space make any decisions for me or my people.

I knew they were going to pick Bran though from reading posts of various people who loved S8 and had predicted and wanted it. So wasn't surprised, just disappointed and somewhat relieved it wasn't Jon (who I think would have been worse.)

And yeah - a show written pretty much entirely by white guys did not serve it's women or characters of color particularly well.

True. It doesn't have to be...but often is. Particularly if the white guys in question are in Hollywood and haven't spent much time out of it. The Avengers I felt...handled this better, but it also had directors and people involved that were not just white guys. This show was pretty much GRR Martin and D+D. And I wouldn't say any of them are that sociologically aware.

I was able to hand-wave it for a while, until this season and this season. I remember having similar issues with well other series I've loved.

[dlgood]

I can see places where they could have tweaked a few things -- and it would have worked much better. But you're right they lost the attention to detail that was apparent in S1-6, or thereabouts.

Among other things, they'd really constricted the world. In Kings Landing, Cersei had no one left to talk to but Qyburn - so she basically had no scenes. And while they'd shown Dany was a Conqueror, they didn't show her character develop to the point where she would become genocidal - they had to tell us. Or telling us Bran has the best story. (His story was so great that he was off the show for a year, and nobody really missed him beyond "hey what's up with Bran?") Which is why these things didn't land as well as they should have.

Mostly, I think fandom disappointment was likely anyway, just because any ending was going to be compressed. But the thing people wanted more of was "how did we get here" - because this was a show with a lot of "how we got here" early on. And much less of that later.

[shadowkat]

I agree. Although, I think what Tyrion was going for with Bran wasn't so much that Bran had the best story, but that Bran knew all the stories, all the history, and could see everything going forward and behind. (In other words, he's the show's version of George RR Martin and we should make the writer of the show, king. LOL!) But pre-cogs and historians do not make good leaders, they tend to spend most of their time in the past and future, and very little in the here and now. Tyrion basically wanted a figure head, not a leader. Which well...doesn't work all that well either.

Anyhow, I had the same issues that you did -- a lot of telling in this last season, not much showing. Also Cersei does get hemmed in -- all she has left to talk to is Qyburn, the Mountain, and Euron Greyjoy, which just...well they are nuttier than she is. And they don't really show how Dany got to the point where she would commit genocide, so much as tell us. It's why I keep thinking of The Avengers: Endgame, which was the other popular and long running series that ended at the same time, and had similar themes. In the Avengers -- the very first scene is Hawkeye telling his daughter that it's not the destination, it's "how" you get there. And then during the story, we are shown, not told, how they do. Avengers has a Bran type character in Doctor Strange, but he at least is utilized well and does something. He sacrifices the Time Stone to save Tony Stark in the previous film. Bran to my knowledge does nothing, but sit there. The only thing he does is tell Sam what he knows about Jon's parents and confirm Sam's research, but he's not the one who tells Jon -- Sam is. And he's not really needed, since Sam figured it out on his own. He warns of the Night King coming for him -- because he holds all their history and memories, but I keep thinking so do their logs. Really, what would happen if the Night King killed him? Would it matter? Jon Snow did slightly more, but not much. He doesn't make any decisions -- leaves them to others to make them for him and push him around. Arya seems to have two purposes this season -- 1) to kill the Night King, which feels almost too easy, and 2) to be a stand-in for the audience during the zombie attack and the dragon attack. Nothing else. Sansa? She tells Tyrion who Jon is -- so Tyrion can get Varys killed? The only active characters seem to be the Hound, Jamie, and Dany, and of those three...maybe the Hound's actions make sense? Nothing Jamie did post episode 3 of this season made sense. Nor did anything Dany did.

The plot points such as they were -- were contrived. But a bit of tweaking would have made them slightly less so. Not perfect, but more palatable.

Mostly, I think fandom disappointment was likely anyway, just because any ending was going to be compressed. But the thing people wanted more of was "how did we get here" - because this was a show with a lot of "how we got here" early on. And much less of that later.

Agreed. They were sort of doomed from the get go...in a way. I'd hoped for better though at the end of S7, because there were some satisfying moments in there. But I think you are right...this may have been the best we could hope for all things considered.

[dlgood]

I go back to thinking about some of the scenes that really made the show great for me in earlier seasons... there's a scene where Olenna Tyrell (Diana Rigg) talks with Varys about various plots in the kingdom. Or the small council meeting run by Tywin after Joffrey boasts about the Red Wedding... Clever characters scheming cleverly, and unclever characters revealing why they are not clever by their conduct.

The best scene of that sort in the final season - is the one where Daenerys and Sansa sit alone together making pleasurable chat until it comes to "and when the war is over, but I don't want to bend the knee..."

And I think it would have been to have more of that sort of scene. Yes, the one scene shows why it just isn't in Sansa's nature to submit to anyone again - and how that is a problem for Daenerys. But a few more scenes of her having to try to act like a queen in Westeros. Showing how she's suited to conquer and rule (and not just because she has her dragons and armies, because she was on the path to become a warlord before her dragons hatched), but that she wasn't fit to govern Westeros.

And scenes that showed why Westerosi didn't love her, as she was loved in Essos. And why it wasn't just because Jon existed. More of that. That's what I wanted. I mean, I like action set pieces too... but, well....

And basically everything in the end with Tyrion putting Bran on the throne is undercut by how staggeringly poor Tyrion was at his job in S7-8... and by how much a cypher Bran was.

[shadowkat]

I would agree. On FB, I had a discussion with Nancy Mae Kreml about this ...and
I told her that what pulled me into Game of Thrones was the idea of multiple character perspectives, that none of the characters were really protagonists or antagonists, and all capable of wonderful and horrible things at the same time. And the dialogue, the political machinations, the clever undercut -- the violence through words.

I feel that the finale did too much telling and not enough showing. There was time. They could have done ten to thirteen episodes in S7 and 8, HBO was okay with it. I'm not sure why they opted not to.

I would have liked them to show more how Dany didn't work as a Queen in Westros, that she didn't understand the culture. Here they'd been playing an intricate game of chess, while in Esso, she was playing a different game entirely with different rules. Different cultures. And how they clash -- which I thought was a telling metaphor for how West and East clash in our modern times, and how the cultures do not understand each other. The East doesn't quite look at power and tyranny the same as the West does. Think about it. That's the problem, we don't think or view power quite the same or leadership or democracy or the need for it.

And I felt they were going somewhere with that...only to...take a cheap short-cut at the end.

Like you -- I got hooked on the political machinations. And the last two seasons sort of dropped the ball on all of that. There's glimmers here and there, such as that scene between Sansa and Dany, which worked well. And the debate between Sansa and Tyrion in the crypt.

It doesn't make sense that Dany trusts Jon enough to let him near her at the end. Nor does it really make sense that anyone would trust Tyrion. It was Tyrion's idea that they send the women and children to the crypt in the big battle with the dead. Also, Bran -- who sees everything, speaks in contradictions and you're right is a cypher. (It's why I didn't like him here or in the books -- cypher characters annoy me.)

Anyhow I think we were disappointed for the same reasons. I watch films like Avengers for action, I watched Game of Thrones for something else.

[dlgood]

Even with my disappointment over the last two seasons, this was a show that really did succeed along those lines - up through the S6 finale.

Anyhow I think we were disappointed for the same reasons. I watch films like Avengers for action, I watched Game of Thrones for something else.

Pretty much. Pardon but I'm gonna keep rambling...

I do like the action too. If you have a show where there are dragons - I do want to see the dragons be dragons and do dragon things... but I want that in the context of worldbuilding... what I also wanted to see is what it means to have dragons. And the show seemed to forget that the dragons are good for more than just breathing fire. (She had the only traffic copters in the world! She can fly across the continent and visit random lords and ask them to ally with her against Cersei way faster than anyone else can.) But also, you have to keep large herds of your own to feed them so you don't upset allies. And anyone with a tactical or political mind in that world is going to know.

I like knowing the rules underlying the world, and believing they are consistently held. (Xena Warrior Princess didn't need that, but for me - this show did.) Now, again, that's what I like. It's not for everybody. It makes it harder to write for TV. My favorite part of "Lord of the Rings" were the appendices.

[shadowkat]

Ramble away...because I think you are doing a good job of articulating what I liked about the series initially, and the books for that matter, and what I felt...began to fall away from it or no longer worked.

Generally speaking, I'm not that much into world-building, as long as you have fascinating characters.... But, in some cases, I do expect it and it is why I like fantasy and science-fiction novels. The good ones? Have detailed world-building or at the very least consistency. Think of Star Trek and Star Wars -- and how much world-building went into both franchises. Or Babylon 5. You don't really need it for series such as The Wire, Mad Men, Friday Night Lights, or the Americans -- although it's there to a degree, but we're in our world.

Song of Ice and Fire, which Game of Thrones was adapted from had a well-developed world. Heck, the writer went so far as to write an encyclopedia on that world, Fire and Blood. This is a writer who focused heavily on world-building. The dragons in the books at the point we left them -- couldn't take Dany anywhere, because she hadn't managed to get them to let her fly on one yet.

But here, she does. We passed that point. Also Sansa makes a good point in episode 2 about the care and feeding of dragons. And their limited stores. She also explains how big Dany's army is and how will they be able to feed and house all these additional people, including two dragons?

When they decide to go to Kings Landing and wage war, Sansa once again brings up the logistics of the world. I liked this part. As much as Sansa, the character, got on my nerves, I liked that they discussed it, albeit briefly. But then it was dropped.

I like the action, but it needs to be built up to. It's odd to say this, but I think the Marvel movies did a better job of incorporating all of that and following the rules they'd set up. I read an interview with the writers of the Avengers films, and they said that they thought about how to end the series for three years. And prior, plotted out various ways of going about it. What worked for each character arc, what worked science wise within their world, etc. And I could tell.Was it perfect? No. But I didn't expect it to be -- it was a superhero film adapted from a series of comic books, which have the plot structure and consistency of soap operas. I went in with low expectations and was surprised by it.

Game of Thrones in direct contrast was more like LoTR, in that the writer had hired people to create an actual language. That he'd studied the possible anatomy of dragons. That he had lineages and charts for each house. Granted he wasn't a huge plotter, but the adapters were. And it was detailed and consistent to its rules of that world in the beginning. It's really not until S7 that it started to swing away from the world's rules, and people started popping up in various locations with little to no trouble. I need the logic to make sense.

I'm willing to hand-wave a lot -- depending on the show. (Such as Xenia -- don't expect it. Also don't expect it from Captain America. Or for that matter even Buffy...so, Spike's reflection was in one scene by accident, it was a low budget television show filmed quickly, and with 22 episodes..considering that, it was pretty damn good.) But Game of Thrones had a budget in the multi-million dollar range. Two years to film six episodes. And location shooting. They had things most television producers and show-runners can only dream about. Plus HBO as a venue, which meant nudity and violence and language weren't censored.

My expectations were much higher. Yes, it's hard to write -- but they knew that when they signed on. And they had the money and time allotted to them.

[dlgood]

Sansa makes a good point in episode 2 about the care and feeding of dragons. And their limited stores. She also explains how big Dany's army is and how will they be able to feed and house all these additional people, including two dragons?

Indeed. When people talk about why Sansa had earned her leadership/rulership position... this demonstrates why far better than any number of times characters said "Sansa is very smart." It's a big chunk of governance. It's really good, as it demonstrates a character who lives in the world, asking the questions someone who lives in the world would ask. It's smart writing.

There used to be a lot more of that earlier in the show. When the Tyrells were introduced, the reason they were so powerful was that they were in charge of the country's most fertile farmland, and consequently could feed armies and cities. (That's the kingdom Tyrion gave over to Bronn, who is a capable mercenary, but would you trust that guy with that region & also give him control of the treasury?)

[shadowkat]

There's also a lot of it in S7. When Jon talks about housing a huge army to fight the White Walkers and Kings Landing, Sansa points out how stretched they are regarding resources. She actually learned something from her time in Kings Landing and in the Vale, which is you have to feed people.

She's frustrated with both of her brothers -- Bran, who basically just wants to sit by the tree and stare into space, and Jon who keeps talking about fighting this or that, and refuses to make any decisions.. He's handed the leadership position, but he can't seem to make a decision to save his life.

You're right in the earlier seasons there was more of it -- Dany wrestles with the care and feeding of a huge army and a city in Mereen. And we have Tyrion struggling with the finances in Kings Landing.

The finale? They discuss it around the table and seem to be at a total loss. Bronn knows nothing about coin. Davos...about ships, but not managing a fleet.
Brienne nothing about feeding, training or housing an army. Too much time is wasted on needless bits like "oh someone wrote a book about all of this" or
"Brienne finished Jaime's chapter in the book" (which I'd forgotten about).

And when they discuss choosing a King, they choose Bran over someone like Sansa?
I love how she handles that situation, okay, fine, the North is declaring independence, you can destroy yourselves.

That's the kingdom Tyrion gave over to Bronn, who is a capable mercenary, but would you trust that guy with that region & also give him control of the treasury?

Because, no. I wouldn't.

Actually based on the colossal mistakes Tyrion has made over the last six seasons, I wouldn't trust Tyrion. It felt very...fan-ficy or like fanservice to go this direction. Like when a writer gives a character something, not because the character earned it or it was built up to, but because the writer loves that character for some reason.

If you go throw the last several seasons -- Sansa makes the most sense as a leader. (Even though the character irritated me, I think she made the most sense as a leader.) After they fight the battle in Winterfell, and are exhausted. Dany is gung-ho to race down to Kings Landing to defeat Cersei. And Sansa's like -- eh, we just fought a horrible battle, suffered major losses, and have a lot of injured and grieving people. Not to mention lots of damage to our castle and stores. What are you thinking?

Jon -- oh, Dany's right, let's go.

Bran -- I don't care, it's what is meant to be.

Arya -- I'm going to kill Cersei.

Sigh. Also, as an aside, I thought the Drofaki and most of Dany's army was killed by the White Walkers...guess not.

[dlgood]

Also, as an aside, I thought the Drofaki and most of Dany's army was killed by the White Walkers...guess not.

This is back to where they are sloppy and handwaving. For the Battle of Winterfell, the only Dothraki we see are the ones who ride out with flaming swords and instantly die. If there were any Dothraki, we don't know about them. They weren't at the victory party. (none of them even have names)

When Dany shows up before the walls of Kings Landing, there are very few of them or the Unsullied. But then, after the sack of King's Landing, there are once again a horde of them. But also, when the show wraps, we know Grey Worm is sailing off to Naath - but no one has said what the Dothraki are doing.

And again, in the last season - out of the entire Dorthraki and Unsullied armies, only Grey Worm has a name or gets dialogue in "English" on the show.

[shadowkat]

Yeah, it's where the writers fall down on the job. The Drofaki and the Unsullied are shown as the faceless hordes. While the characters in Westeros all get a voice, the characters in Essos have none. When Tyrion says Bran will rule over the six kingdoms -- I was thinking, yeah tell that to Essos...I have a feeling you'd be dead in a less than a week. Unless he can convince that dragon. If I were the dragon, I'd either ignore him or kill him.

Anyhow, I agree. Both the Unsullied and Drofaki don't get names and are treated like barbarians. Faceless. The Unsullied are also insanely clean in comparison to everyone else. So too is Dany.

And...they make a big deal of all of the Drofaki being dead in episode 3 and episode 4, and Dany's army being decimated, only to have this huge army at the end of episode 5 and beginning of episode 6. It would be one thing if the Drofaki all being killed during Season 3 wasn't a major plot point that resulted in Dany abandoning their plan and going out to try to kill the White Walkers on her own -- with fury, which was clearly supposed to be forshadowing for episode 5. But it is. So, it's made all the more glaring when the Drofaki show up in episodes 5 and 6. They wanted to show her as a major threat with an unstoppable army, yet at the same time show her as losing everyone? Sorry, can't have it both ways.

Very sloppy writing.