TV Shows...and Misogyny
Sep. 4th, 2004 04:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatOkay, those who know me - know that I tend to turn a blind eye to things that some people might find hateful in a tv show. As long as it is about the characters journey, and their over-coming something, it doesn't bug me. I had no problems with Archie Bunker in All in The Family for example. Nor did I flinch while watching MASH (the Movie) or MASH (the TV series). Nip/Tuck also doesn't bug me. Why? All these series had strong female characters. The negative comments came from the character not the show as a whole, it told me something about the character, and did not in any way shape or form overwhelm the show.
I unfortunately cannot say the same about the new Dennis Leary series Rescue Me, which after the fifth episode (I think it's the fifth) I've decided never to watch again.
.
It takes a lot to offend me. And this show does. So much so, that I may never watch another movie featuring Leary, especially anything written by him. Why? What happened?
There is a scene half-way through last week's episode, where a fireman is flirting with a tall, somewhat big shouldered, muscular woman, the flirtation is seen from a distance. Dennis Leary and the other characters get off on this. They even make a bet. Why? Because they are convinced this woman is a man. She has to be a man. Because she is tall. She is big. She is muscular. And all women in their eyes are smaller than men. Alone this scene wouldn't have bugged me too much - in fact it occurred to me that the character, Tommy, that Leary was playing, would be put in his place once it was discovered that this person was a woman, but I knew this was unlikely to happen and even if it did, it wouldn't mean much. Why? It is followed by a scene between a fireman and his counselor - discussing how horrible his wife is for telling him his poetry sucks. Then we have a scene with Leary's wife ignoring her kids for her lover Roger, then of course the previous week the tipsy widow flirting with LEary and whom Leary thinks is gay, as well as Leary's father with the whores. In between - a woman whom Leary bangs, but he just can't remember her name, a woman into S&M who abandons her child, it goes on and on. I have yet to see one woman portrayed postively on this show or developed in any way. Women are shit this series states. They can't save lives. They can't be firemen. They have no point.
It's sad, because I was enjoying the series when it first started. Found the Leary character to be compelling and well-acted. Enjoyed the anti-hero aspects and the complexity. It had such potential. The Sheild, I've been told is similar to Rescue Me, but it has incredibly strong female supporting characters. And from what I've seen of it, is not misogynistic. Same with Nip/Tuck which is also fairly dark, with a complex anti-hero, but again not misogynistic. Women are shown as human beings. As characters. Just like the men. Rescue Me? Does not come close to accomplishing what these shows do. Perhaps if there was one strong female lead or supporting character? Or they toned down the anti-female comedy and ribaldry? Even the sex scenes on this show feel misogynistic and brutal.
Thinking I was overreacting, I discussed this with Wales the other day. Mentioned my concerns. And she said, with a patient sigh: "Yep, it's completely misogynistic. Been saying for years how Leary is a misogynist...you know he wrote and co-produced it right?" Yes, okay. Feeling like a complete and utter fool for ever liking the guy. Don't any more. I know, it's crazy, but I don't tend to like people who don't like women. Call it what you will.
I unfortunately cannot say the same about the new Dennis Leary series Rescue Me, which after the fifth episode (I think it's the fifth) I've decided never to watch again.
.
It takes a lot to offend me. And this show does. So much so, that I may never watch another movie featuring Leary, especially anything written by him. Why? What happened?
There is a scene half-way through last week's episode, where a fireman is flirting with a tall, somewhat big shouldered, muscular woman, the flirtation is seen from a distance. Dennis Leary and the other characters get off on this. They even make a bet. Why? Because they are convinced this woman is a man. She has to be a man. Because she is tall. She is big. She is muscular. And all women in their eyes are smaller than men. Alone this scene wouldn't have bugged me too much - in fact it occurred to me that the character, Tommy, that Leary was playing, would be put in his place once it was discovered that this person was a woman, but I knew this was unlikely to happen and even if it did, it wouldn't mean much. Why? It is followed by a scene between a fireman and his counselor - discussing how horrible his wife is for telling him his poetry sucks. Then we have a scene with Leary's wife ignoring her kids for her lover Roger, then of course the previous week the tipsy widow flirting with LEary and whom Leary thinks is gay, as well as Leary's father with the whores. In between - a woman whom Leary bangs, but he just can't remember her name, a woman into S&M who abandons her child, it goes on and on. I have yet to see one woman portrayed postively on this show or developed in any way. Women are shit this series states. They can't save lives. They can't be firemen. They have no point.
It's sad, because I was enjoying the series when it first started. Found the Leary character to be compelling and well-acted. Enjoyed the anti-hero aspects and the complexity. It had such potential. The Sheild, I've been told is similar to Rescue Me, but it has incredibly strong female supporting characters. And from what I've seen of it, is not misogynistic. Same with Nip/Tuck which is also fairly dark, with a complex anti-hero, but again not misogynistic. Women are shown as human beings. As characters. Just like the men. Rescue Me? Does not come close to accomplishing what these shows do. Perhaps if there was one strong female lead or supporting character? Or they toned down the anti-female comedy and ribaldry? Even the sex scenes on this show feel misogynistic and brutal.
Thinking I was overreacting, I discussed this with Wales the other day. Mentioned my concerns. And she said, with a patient sigh: "Yep, it's completely misogynistic. Been saying for years how Leary is a misogynist...you know he wrote and co-produced it right?" Yes, okay. Feeling like a complete and utter fool for ever liking the guy. Don't any more. I know, it's crazy, but I don't tend to like people who don't like women. Call it what you will.
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no subject
Date: 2004-09-04 06:31 pm (UTC)Yes! That was exactly the way I was viewing it. I saw it as a symptom of the environment they were working or possibly a comment on that. But like you state, the evidence just began to pile up and there was no counter-point. And they had plenty of opportunities for counter-point. His daughter. His ex-wife.
His best friend's widow. Even the counselor who comes into the firehouse.
It'd be great if Tommy met a tough no-nonsense woman who could call him on his BS and be an equal-opportunity foe -- or if, say, a women were to join the firehouse crew -- but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.
No, I don't think it will. From what I understand, most of Leary's writing and humor comes from a misogynistic standpoint. He's not like Whedon, Shawn Murphy (The Shield), or
Sam Rami who geniunely love women. I remember the Job (which wasn't on long enough for me to really get a feel for it) but it did seem misogynistic. Then his routines...which are also somewhat that way. If Leary wasn't producing and writing the series...maybe?
no subject
Date: 2004-09-05 07:32 am (UTC)I agree. It unnerved me when I realized it. And I didn't put the word misogyny on it at first. I kept wondering, what is it about this show that's beginning to grate? Spoke to a friend about it and she states "it's misogynistic", as if it's the most obvious thing in the world. (siigh). Which made me feel very uncomfortable for ever liking the show to begin with or Leary (who I really enjoyed in this show and other things). I loved the complexity of the character, but the unrelenting and unnecessary put-downs of women started to grate. (Granted they do it with gays too, but oddly enough not to the same extent.) And anti-PC doesn't bug me. It's what I liked about Leary.
I don't know - at first I thought, it's exaggerated like Archie Bunker, but then realized, maybe not and that unnerved me. The filming feels too realistic, so not sure the writers intend this to be exaggerated. Now this may bug me more than others - because I live in New York City, not sure.
In a recent post by ann1962 - there was a comment made about authorial intent. If the writer is misogynist or anti-semitic, does this affect his work? Should we even care what the writer's personality or views are? The next question is - watching and reading a writer who may have these types of views. A friend of mine, who happens to be African American, makes a point of reading Flannery O'Connor (who is a racist writer) partly to see how these views come into being and understand them better. Valid reason. But, how much do we encourage these views - when we purchase the authors novels or
watch their shows? On the other hand, isn't it better to encourage them to speak then remain silent?
I've always been against censorship. ie. "If you don't like something, don't watch it - but do not presume to tell me what I can or can't watch!"
no subject
Date: 2004-09-05 10:34 am (UTC)Oh, I never found Bunker that funny either, to be honest. All in The Family was an oddity to me, because it felt more like a dramedy than a situation comedy. I have a very dark sense of humor, so it may seem odd that it didn't make me laugh. Except - for the arguments between Archie and his liberal son-in-law played by Rob Reiner, which felt at times exaggerations of similar arguments I've seen in life. I've known quite a few Archies - some of my relatives are like that. What worked was, to me at least, the exaggeration - the fact that on the surface this man seemed intolerable, yet underneath - he was a good neighbor, cared for his wife, and a good father. The dichotomy fascinated me. That said - it was hardly a favorite, and I watched it sparingly.
But I think there is that extra edge to a lot of existing literature -- and television shows and movies and whatnot -- that bothers women and not men.
Yes!! I completely agree. It's weird but we are still treated abominably in this world as a gender. There are jobs, salaries, activities that are still to this day not permissible for women. We are also continuously portrayed in magazines and in movies as "objects" to be lusted over. More so now than ever before.
I mean, it's not like he thought it was funny or justified or anything, but a lot of men are in control of Hollywood, and I think they might not realize all the time what's offensive just because they don't live in a culture which is always subtly (and often not-so-subtly) hostile to them.
When you look at the writing roster for shows such as Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Xenia, or Tru Calling - it's unnerving. The head writers are without exception - men. Majority of the team? Men. It wasn't until later years that Buffy got more female writers - but only three - Rand Kirschner, Espenson and Noxon stayed, everyone else of the eight member team was a guy. Angel only had Craft and Fain.
Tru Calling? Egan and Espenson and that wasn't until much later in the season.
Julie Taymor was the first woman to win a Tony for direction of a musical on Broadway and that was just five years ago. Not because there aren't any good women directors, but because few get the backing or the opportunity.
Lately, it has been bugging me more than usual, this sense of hostility towards something I have no control over. I'm female.
Not only that - I'm a tall (close to 6ft), strong, single, working, female who is not a mother and does not have a boyfriend.
I don't understand why that is so threatening to so many men.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-05 10:54 am (UTC)Great thread!
no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 11:35 am (UTC)Was discussing this with my mother last night and she mentioned how it took years for my father to get past the stereotype that women were better nurturers than men, and therefore should be the ones to stay home with the kids. As he grew older, he learned from his siblings that his father had actually been more nurturing to them than his mother. And if you look at me and my brother - kidbro is far more nurturing than I am and much better with children, I'm more like my Dad in some ways, more awkward.
Our society has so many odd gender stereotypes that continue to be reinforced by the media. I can't help but wonder if Arnold Schwarzengeer was aware how much he exposed his own fears and insecurities to the world with the comment about "girly-men". Is it that important to him to portray an image of "machoisma"? After all this time, it's interesting to me that we still can't get beyond these gender classifications and stereotypes. We are still boxing each other in.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 11:53 am (UTC)Do you know how much joy I get from that. lol Anyone that has only the extreme stereotype to latch on to, has lost so much. Whether it be a woman with extreme makeup or a man all pumped up, I think it sad. The energy, the hours, that goes into those "creations" is lost forever. And the sadder part is that they will never be happy because age will find them anyway, and one loses to that every time. It is a doomed effort. The fear that drives people like that must be so stifling. Boggles.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 12:01 pm (UTC)Hee! Yes, so much time spent on external appearance and image. Yet where does it get you? I suppose if you look at it one way, Arnold and his ilk look very successful, loads of money, Governor of California, movie star, pretty Kennedy wife, but, but...it's all surface really. Before long he'll be out of office. The steroids already caught up with him regarding his heart. And his movies? No longer sell.
From one angle it looks like Arnold has the picture perfect life, from another the picture looks a tad distorted like taken by a funhouse camera, not so perfect and actually kind of tragic in retrospect.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 12:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 12:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 12:07 pm (UTC)Leary (misogynistic ass that he is), Pierce Bronson, Scean Connory....Arnold's neck disappears in all that bulk (no neck monsters I call them). So I *really* don't envy Maria.
If he stops, all that muscel becomes fat.
If he doesn't...sigh. And still no satisfaction.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 11:28 am (UTC)What's so frightening about that is so much of the vitriol fired her way was as much if not more from *female* fans. Just as it was often women who disparaged shows like Murphy Brown or Cybill. And we find women who more critical of Hilary Clinton and want everyone to be quiet like Laura and Barbara Bush.
It's odd. Why is empowerment such a dirty word to some women? Why were so many women threatened by Marti Noxon (who at the time was co-executive producers with David Fury)? Why did MArti get the blame for Season 6 and/or Season 7 mistakes and not Fury or even Whedon? (Who according to interviews I'd read and commentary were also key decision-makers?)
-- and yet I apparently still unnerve some men so much by my appearance they have to make a remark about it when they MEET ME, "Amazon" or some other crack (you know what, I want to say, no matter how witty you are I HAVE heard it all before). I try not to let it bother me too much, but really....
Me too! The words Amazon, basketball player, etc.
They just don't quite know how to handle my height and size. I'm not 6ft and skinny like Julia Roberts. I have a big bone structure and a physical presence that is more akin to Mariel Hemingway or Lucy Lawless. For some odd reason men have problems with that.
The number of times I've had people call me *sir* when I clearly have a bust and a feminine face, I've lost count of. It's one of the reasons I don't have short hair - happened quite a bit when I did.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 11:56 am (UTC)When I had extremely short hair in college, there were some that thought my husband (then boyfriend) and I were male gay lovers. We got cat calls and threats all of the time.
I am still amused by that.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 02:48 pm (UTC)Under her hands, Buffy turned into a domestic abuser. The bad girlfriend that we should warn our brothers and sons away from. Uncaring, heartless...
The kind of woman that would beat up a guy, and then go play the poor little victim.
That's not empowerment.
See, my dislike of Marti Noxon has nothing to do with her being a woman, it has to do with her turning my favorite character into a monster.
Noxon took a group of likeable characters and turned them into people I can no longer stand. Not to say that Joss was that much better, considering he didn't even bother to try and redeem those chars, chosing to try and wipe their bad behavior under the mat as if it never happened, while of course it did.
As a consequence, by the end of Chosen, the only chars I could still stand were Spike, Anya and well... that's about it.
All of which are unfortunately in great part caused by Noxon and her desire to get therapy through the show.
See, I wanted to love Buffy, up to middle S6 I was a bigger Buffy fan than I was a Spike fan, and she took that away from me to such a level that right now the only way I can keep liking Buffy, is by believing that she truly loved Spike...
And it's hard to forgive Noxon for that.
But none of that has anything to do with Noxon being a woman.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 02:52 pm (UTC)So to put all the blame on Marti? When she was one player admist eight, is sort of interesting. Whedon/Fury had quite a bit of input in Season 6. Invisible Buffy was entirely Whedon and Fury's idea.
Yet, viewers give Whedon credit for the nicer episodes and blame Marti for the un-empowering ones. It's weird. Very weird.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-06 03:06 pm (UTC)(and yep, I do have serious issues with Gone, Spike's basically raped and it's all ok, cause it has funny music. *grumble*)
Joss has made serious mistakes, I'll never deny that, and his outdated idea of feminisme as portrayed in Chosen is just horrifying. Cause the problem is, at the end of Buffy, I didn't need to see the few get empowered, no matter how female they were. I needed to see Buffy growing up, maturing. I like to think that she'll finally be able to unclose her heart and get over the pain that Angel caused her. That she'll finally be able to love again. But the problem is, we didn't see that. Too much time was wasted on Joss' socalled feminist message, that there was very little actual feminisme on the show.
The one thing they did do, and I'll have to give them credit for that, is turn around the genderroles. Placing Spike in the female role, and Buffy in the male one. And seen as such, well...
Makes me wonder if Joss even likes his own gender*g*
no subject
Date: 2004-09-07 03:55 pm (UTC)Poor Marti. The reason she gets so much flack is well she puts her foot in her mouth during interviews. But if you ignore the interviews during the season, which were mostly fluff anyway, and pay attention to what aired, who wrote what, and the commentary after-wards, including insider takes on who was responsible for what over the past S7 years? Marti looks pretty amazing.
Season 2 - Marti wrote the majority of the episodes, they had a short staff.
Season 3, she co-wrote and produced several episodes, as well as wrote quite a few
Season 4, co-executive producer
Season 5, co-executive producer
Season 6, co-executive producer
Season 7, co-executive producer
(The only season Marti wasn't involved in was Season 1, which was mostly male writer nd admittedly the weakest of the series).
David Fury wrote and directed Gone. Joss Whedon and Fury came up with the story which Marti went on record as being squicked by. (She didn't like that episode any more than you did.)
She did have a part in Dead Things, but then I happen to think Dead Things is a fascinating episode that is all about how we deal with power and the negative impact of that. Not a black and white one by far and one of my favorites.
(But hey, I love S6, it's one of my favorite seasons. My least favorite are Season 7 and 1. 5 and 6 are my favorites.)