(no subject)

[shadowkat]

Apparently Joss Whedon has parted ways with The Nevers, which is coming to HBO in the Summer

Question posed on FB - "When did Joss Whedon become Brian Fuller?"

LOL!

Good question.

Followed by..."what was the last show that Brian Fuller actually stuck with?"

ME: Possibly Pushing Daisies, which admittedly didn't last long.

I was thinking about that when I was trying to watch the first episode of S1 Discovery "On Demand", and realized Fuller was the original show-runner, who parted ways after the first season.

Whedon appears to be doing the same thing.

Comments

[cactuswatcher]

I don't know. It seems like Whedon's middle name has become "creative-differences." By the time I've heard of a new project of his, he's split with it.

[shadowkat]

Yep. Hence the Brian Fuller reference. Fuller is notorious for his creative differences. Both are kind of perfectionist prima donna's who don't get along with their bosses. Angel got cancelled because Whedon got into a pissing match with the WB. LOL!

[jesuswasbatman]

The director wasn't willing to include the all-important close-ups of the deranged waif's bare feet.

[shadowkat]

Hee.

Before I forget - Happy Birthday Londonkds!

[jesuswasbatman]

Thanks very much!

[avrelia]

It might have been the fallout from the Justice League accusations of the unprofessional behavior?

Anyway, I am not particularly sorry at this point about his exit. But I am not very much looking forward to THE Nevers anyway.

[shadowkat]

Possibly, hard to know. Justice League was an impossible shoot. I read about it long before the movie arrived, and I've seen the film. Chris Snyder was the original director who has a completely different style than Whedon. Snyder is more of a visual stylist, and not into dialogue. He also goes dark and not into humor or snark. And had been critiqued on his darker take. He took off during post-production, with just a few more scenes that needed to be done because of a tragic death in his family. Warner for some reason or other, panicked and decided to bring in Marvel's Joss Whedon for a different take. Keep in mind - Whedon had been the very successful showrunner over at Marvel until he screwed up with Age of Ultron.

Also Whedon's style is the polar opposite of Snyder's. And everyone was used to Snyder.
Whedon's a perfectionist and into dialogue and getting the words exactly right - he also had a lot riding on it - since if it was successful - he got a shot at taking over that franchise.

But he came in at the fourth quarter mark - at post-production, with just a few scenes left over to be shot. So he chose to redo most of it. Diminish roles that Snyder had emphasized, and increase roles that Snyder had diminished. The finished project was jarring in places - I can only imagine what it was like on set.

I don't envy the people investigating the allegations. Also it's hard to know if Fisher had a case or was overly sensitive. I honestly don't know. But I do know that was an impossible situation, and it's why it didn't do as expected in the box office.

I'm ambivalent about The Nevers - I don't like Victorian Steam-Punk. But Whedon fascinates me as a writer/director. And say what you will about the writer - he's good at dialogue.

[yourlibrarian]

It was handed a straight-to-series order by the premium cable network in summer 2018.

This is what I don't understand. Supposedly HBO would meddle less with projects, and this was greenlit over 2 years ago, yet it's not coming out until 3 years later? What's wrong with this show? Why would it take so long to develop and film? Granted, no one helming it is in their 20s or 30s any longer and maybe it's a big scale production that's a lot of work. But this sounds really odd.

[shadowkat]

This is actually typical of HBO. Game of Thrones was greenlit and in development for about four years before it aired. And there was a Neil Gaiman series that got picked up, in development and straight to series - then dropped all of sudden. Not to mention a series that had James Marsters in it - that had even filmed episodes was set to premiere and got dropped. And of course the AU Civil War series that got greenlit then dropped (no shock there - that was a dumb idea from the get-go. I don't know what they were thinking.)

Whedon is lucky his got to air. Most don't. HBO greenlits a lot of series that they end up dropping - it's hilarious. I'll be about to end my subscription, then change my mind because Michael Chabon or Neil Gaiman or someone is about to do a series - and whoops, there it goes. I've learned not to count on HBO to air stuff until it actually airs.

Every HBO series is greenlit over two years before it airs. His Dark Materials certainly was, as was True Blood, Westworld, etc.

Why would it take so long to develop and film? Granted, no one helming it is in their 20s or 30s any longer and maybe it's a big scale production that's a lot of work. But this sounds really odd.

It's a lot of work. They do a lot in post-production. Lots of special effects. Casting.
HBO gives the creator a lot of elbow room, BUT they are also nitpicky about quality.
I've listened and read commentaries from various HBO show-runners - and a ten episode series for HBO can take up to two years to film - because you are basically filming ten movies.

Broadcast television is actually faster and in some respects higher paying than streaming. You have more episodes, and as a result the pace is picked up. Also the quality for production, etc is lower. While streaming takes longer - because you get to do more and are basically given a film budget, but weirdly paid less - since less episodes.

It's an odd industry, to say the least. I think its absurdity is why it fascinates me? Well, that, and I find what people do for a living incredibly interesting.

ETA: Regarding Whedon? This is what I've discovered via his twitter account and recent interviews. He's living with a female Canadian artist, who he's fallen head over heels in love with. The Nevers was a lot of work and almost fell apart twice. Whedon has been diagnosed with ADD - Attention Deficit Disorder, and has difficulty focusing on anything for very long.

He reminds me a lot of Bryan Fuller, to be honest. Both in how he goes about the creative process, and his fickleness, and difficulty sticking with things now.

[yourlibrarian]

It's true that they tend to have longer development times -- I hadn't realized there were so many dropped projects though. That must have cost a lot with nothing to show for it.

I wonder if part of it is because of the change in ownership. AT&T now owns HBO and is losing money badly in other areas, and has already gotten rid of a lot of people at HBO in order to cut costs. The acquisition went through in 2018 but a lot of changes didn't take effect until later last year after HBO's previous head resigned. Perhaps Whedon had been allowed to work at a slower pace and was now being pushed to speed things up. I agree that the production time is much more like films than TV.

[shadowkat]

Hard to know. I know they've a lot in development for HBO Max. I also know COVID restrictions raises costs and they've had to cut across the board. And that Whedon has a tendency to get into fights with his bosses. He actually (for the most part) gets along rather well with actors, but he can have issues with the producers. (Brian Fuller has the same problems. So too does Aaron Sorkin. And Amy Pallindino. And a few others. It is NOT an easy industry to work in. Bullying and harrassment is highest in the entertainment industry across the board.)

And, I know from various things I've read here and there - that Whedon didn't know what he wanted half the time and kind of was figuring it out as he rolled. HBO prefers a clear game plan. Whedon is an intitutive writer who kind of makes it up as he goes and changes his mind.

He got away with a lot on Buffy. Usually you have a typical work week - five days a week, maybe 10-12 hour days if that. Whedon took the full seven days and often filmed past midnight. He would sneak the crew and cast in over the weekends to perfect the shots. And he was a perfectionist.

Various actors on that show over the years have mentioned that he would make them repeat the scene until they got the lines right - by letter. Brendan reports - Whedon would come up to him and say - ""The" is in there for a reason, please don't leave it out." They weren't permitted to audlib nor improv, and had to be spot on. (Vincent Karthesier hated working on Angel, and Boreanze preferred Bones where he had more control.) And I've watched outtakes - they did over 30-40 shots for a couple of lines in Wrecked and Smashed, to the point that Marsters was cursing and asking for line and Gellar was rolling her eyes. He also made a fuss over Marsters hair in Lessons - in the commentary.