Buffy S8 -Issue 38 Review
Nov. 7th, 2010 04:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatYeah I know, boring heading, but what can you do? It's called "Last Gleaming Part III..." apparently one's last gleaming can go on four about five months? Who knew?
Admittedly on the fence about writing this. Partly because I'm tired, it's been a long weekend and looks to be an even longer work week ahead, and I do not feel like debating Buffy comics on the internet. And partly because I'm guessing some of you may well be thinking, why are you still reading the comics if you don't like them? Well, see the thing of it is? I did like them more or less, until about issue 33 or 34, where they just jumped over the bloody shark and kept right on going and as a result showed me in big neon letters what was wrong with them and the entire series, and well everything Whedon has done. The meta and reviews I've read since have only aided in that reveal.
Now? It's a matter of wanting to know a) will they get better? Maybe they will get better? Maybe everything will get better??? Maybe what I see isn't what I'm seeing? And I'll be proven wrong?? (sigh hope it's a thing that I cling to...after 38 issues, you'd think I'd give up, but nooo.) b) curiousity as to how worse can this get, and b) where is it headed, and c) figuring what the frigging hell this writer is thinking doing it to begin with. ie. Curiousity killed the proverbial cat (although apparently not the one in the comics) and all that. (Don't believe me - go read my past meta on the comics, you can find it under the tag - buffy s8 comic, I think, admittedly horrid at the whole tagging enterprise, in lj - you'll notice in reading the meta prior to issue 32 or thereabouts, that I actually did like the damn things. God knows why...maybe I should go back an re-read the meta??).
Thought about doing a poll - asking folks, do you want another bleeding review on this issue? A snarky one that is going to basically rip it to shreds and analyze it at the same time? Really? You sure about that? And chose not to. Because I'm not sure I want to know. Besides if you don't - you can ignore me. Here - I'll help, by putting the whole thing beneath a cut tag. If you want to read a positive review or meta of the comics? Let me know and I'll steer you in the right direction. There's at least two good one's I've read to date.
So "Twilight" - as near as I can figure Twilight is a sentient universe that for reasons that defy explanation has chosen to take the form of a flying lion. Note it is not a chimera - chimeras are lion, goat, bird and snake - this one sort of skipped two animals. Granted Jeanty and DH aren't exactly up in the fact checking department - so they may well think this is what a chimera looks like, but I doubt it. Male or female? - Hard to know. Could go both ways. Personally I prefer "it" - since I find the female gender application mildly offensive, but considering there are so many things about this story that I find offensive, I'm giving it a pass and not going to delve too deeply into it. Would however be nice if we got a bit more explanation as to what the heck Twilight is supposed to be. Yeah, I know the embodiment of a sentient universe that apparently has the ability to time travel in order to manipulate its own conception. Hate to say this? But the Jasmine arc, as convoluted as that was, actually made more sense and was a lot less offensive (which is saying a lot.) In case you were asleep during the Jasmine arc or just skipped it - a quick rehash: "Higher being decides to change the world for the better, manipulates Angel into ensuring it's conception via his son and ex-girlfriend and voila. Also manipulates Angel in being its champion until Fred literally punchs a blood stained bullet through Angel's chest, giving him a mighty wake up call. And he or rather Connor, actually, kills higher being, because Connor's the only one who can, since he's its father, the mother is in a coma and out of action." Something tells me it will take a lot more than a bullet to wake up Angel this round, but then unlike the Jasmine arc - Angel was a willing participant a bit like Connor actually (although Connor's willing participation made a lot more sense). Angel remember wanted to give birth to the new universe (or maybe I misunderstood his whole explanatory speech to Buffy in issue 35?) - that was the whole point of his Twilight crusade the last four years (or was it two, felt like four). In short, Angel comes out better in the Jasmine arc, heck, Cordelia comes out better than Angel in that arc as did Connor (who was actually in the Angel role) for that matter - than Angel does in this one. Even Jasmine..she doesn't want to replace the world with herself, she just wants to control it and give people peace and tranquility. Which makes me think that I did not give Fury, Greenwalt, Deknight, and Minear nearly enough credit. Also makes me wonder a bit about Whedon. He's done this story thread how many times now? Three? Possibly four if we include Alien Resurrection.
So we have the newly sentient universe that has decided to take the form of some green glowy flying lion (that makes me think of the Wizard of OZ for some reason), which decides to turn Angel into its puppet. (Again). And pretty much whines for about five possibly six panels about being abandoned by Daddy and Mommy and not respected. (Basically Angel's line for the last 245 years.)
Talk about karma. First Connor, now Universe or Flying!Kitty (if you prefer) are echoing Angel's own diatribe back at him. He more or less said the same thing to his biological father, then latter Darla and the Master.
Flying!Kitty: "Mother rejected me for Lack of Conflict" (well, she does have a short attention span, I really wouldn't take it personally) "Look at this place though! It is so clearly waning."(Hey, say that after you've been to Bali, not while your sitting in a bombed out field somewhere in Southern California...) "I will be more monsterous. More beautiful. Than anything she has ever feared or fantasized."(Channeling Glory now are we? )
At any rate - same speech that Angel gave the Master more or less. And Darla.
Moving on...Angel puts up a good front about how he's going to fight Flying!Kitty to the bitter end. But let's face it - the time to fight Flying!Kitty has pretty much passed. And then Flying!Kitty channels Gigi from No Future For You. (Anyone else miss Gigi? Far more entertaining villain, in my opinion.) "The Queen is dead, long live me." (Right, thought you were a universe, now you are Queen? Make up your mind. You're either the ruler of the universe or the universe itself, you can't be both. This sort of reminds me of that really stupid Claremont comic book about the Sentient Island the X-men thought - where the new X-men were all introduced. It too was described as a she. Go figure.)
And I just love this quote by Flying!Kitty.
It's echoed later here:
I have problems with this pov - for one major reason, it forces you to examine the fact that the heroine was set up to fail from the beginning. That she may only have power if some guy is managing it. That women can't handle physical power on their own. And it certainly shouldn't be shared. Heaven forbid there be a lot of women, super-powered women, with more power than the guys.
Also, it reminds us that Buffy's power was forced on her by men. She has always been the tool or weapon of men. Her decision to let all the potentials have power - without some man finding them first and training them, separating them from family and loved ones, and turning them into a tool is considered a bad idea in S8. Granted - there are ethical issues, the girls didn't necessarily choose power, it gave them nightmares (slayer dreams) and it made them a target for vamps. But if you explore those "ethical" issues too long...you end up having to also examine the basic premise and foundation of the series as a whole, and it's heroine. You also have to examine the writer and his body of work. And does Whedon really want us to do that? Go too far down that path, and you see Warren Miers creating the Buffy Bot.
Whedon attempts to fix this by having the Flying!Kitty use Angel as its power or tool. It imbues Angel with power much the same way Buffy is, except Angel is provided no agency, no control. Buffy at least has agency. Which may be a metaphor for the vampire - which is a character that does not have agency without a soul. Or so we're told. The problem? The writer can't make up his mind. Sometimes Angel and vampires have agency, sometimes they don't - it depends on the writer's mood.
Consistency is something that is sorely lacking in this story. It's always been lacking to some degree or another, but here - it's obvious.
Anywho...Flying!Kitty tells an Angel, who tries to resist, that he will finish this. Now, this doesn't get Angel off the hook. First off - what did he think was going to happen when he chose to kill hundreds of slayers, fill Buffy with power, shag her through time and space, and birth a new world? He can't be a complete idiot, right? He even tells her in his explanation way back in issue 35, where he is not possessed by Flying!Kitty - that the old world doesn't work and he's manipulated her into helping him create a new one where they can live happily ever after. (Hmmm, apparently Angel got hold of tapes of I Will Always Remember You - decided his decision in that episode was really stupid and he should have just seduced and then carted Buffy off to paradise instead of wiping her memory and setting her back to her old life while he pursued his? )
So the only difference between Angel in this issue and Angel in the first oh 35 comics...is that he's been possessed and that he isn't killing innocent bystanders and random slayers, as well as all of Buffy's army to get her to a place in which she'll give in to the power, shag his brains out and make a universe. (Without any labor pains - well not unless you count all the people who got killed.) Possessed Angel is only interested in taking the seed giving it to the new universe and eradicting everyone in the old one. Wait...what's the difference again? Maybe genocide by degree?
Back to the Scooby Gang and the Master (who has been resurrected by the Seed of Wonder to well protect the Seed of Wonder.)
Willow's statement is actually a really good example of how incoherent and repetitive this comic's plot has become: "The word important isn't important enough for how important it is." Okay, we have important repeated three times and the sentence goes in a circle. That's basically what the plot sounds like.
According to the Master? He was only restored when Twilight chose Angel/us to be its sire. Poor Angel he keeps being chosen as everyone's stud. He and Cordelia should hook up...oh wait.
Makes sense the seed chose the Master - who is actually as important to Angel as he is to Buffy, possibly more so - the Master is Angel's vampire father, his grandsire. The Master is to Angel what Angel more or less is to Spike. Angelus did what he did to prove himself to The Master.
Giles: "Before Twilight I hadn't thought the seed was real much less under our noses" (that's because the writer didn't come up with it until recently...so how were you supposed to know, if the god of your verse just came up with it?)
Willow: So it was just hiding behind the hellmouth pulling the Master's strings all those years...all those lives without him knowing.."(Apparently the apple doesn't fall far from the tree?
Get it? Angel no agency, Master no agency...although this is a bit confusing since they do appear to have agency at some points and not others - depending on Whedon's mood and what point he wants to make. Whedon? Hon? The vampires either have free will or they don't. You can't have it both ways. Well you can, but you will confuse your audience and they will wander off and become Doctor Who fans, which by the way is a far more consistent verse and considering it's been written by different writers over a 40 year time period that's saying something.)
Xander and Buffy decide the Master's love of the Seed would explain why he bears a shocking resemblance to Gollum. (Actually I think he looks more like Nostrefutru but that's just me, Gollum was shorter and cuter.)
The Master: You think you understand the seed? You don't even understand Twilight! Remove the seed. And you doom your world! (Actually no one understands the seed or Twilight including the readers, which considering this is the 38th issue in a 40 run comic - and we've had a chock ful of exposition which basically consists of "the word important isn't important enough for how important it is"...don't you think now would be a great time to explain it?) Remove the See and You Doom Your World. (well that part we all do get...actually.) Has she tole you there's a place in her new world for you? (no, because she doesn't seem to understand the whole bit about a new world) No -- she and Angelus will see you all dead. (Well, Angel maybe - that's been a give since issue 33 or was it 34 when he was revealed as the guy going around and killing people, but the jury is still out on the Buffster.)
Buffy:Wow this guy is really challenged by the major plot points.
Dawn: He's not the only one. (So say we all.)
We flash to Faith and Andrew fighting above. Or is that Riley? I can't tell. But I'm pretty sure it is Faith. And Riley was dead or nearly dead the last we saw of him. Speaking of...Dawn gets hurt, not killed as promised, just hurt. (Although it is possible they'll kill her, but I'm not holding my breath. So no worries on that front. Satsu, and the other random slayers...on the other hand...)
And Xander realizes he has to carry Dawn to safety. Except she's too heavy for him, so he asks Buffy to do it. Dawn is understandably annoyed.
The Master meanwhile tries to talk Buffy into joining forces with him to protect the seed, a speech that is a bit too reminiscent of his speech to her way back in S1 when he bit her and left her to drown. Can't quite blame her for reacting with a bit of violence. But Willow stops her - because Willow has decided destroying the seed is a bad thing or rather has been informed it is by her trustworthy snake demon.
Buffy: "It's not enough to side with our original big bad -- now we're working for him." (Yet, you have no trouble shagging the guy who killed half your army, critically wounded OZ, his wife and family, destroyed his home, critically wounded Riley, and numerous innocent people and slayers? OR tried to kill you at least twice and tried to destroy the world three times now? Honey, I think you need a refresher course on Big Bads. Angel makes the Master look like a harmless vamp in comparison.)
Giles: I don't know that the Master is any worse than Dracula.
Buffy: He's a monster and he killed me. (apparently killing you is worse than killing all your friends and the slayers you empowered - nice to know, also helps that he's ugly as all get out. Buffy you are a shallow girl.).
Willow meanwhile is fascinated by the Seed. Is it me or is she channeling the guy from Lord of the Rings who kept trying to convince Frodo to give the ring to him because with it they could change the world. (Maybe Whedon's been watching marathon runs of the Lord of the Rings in his spare time?)
Just me then.
Willow gives us a bit of explanation regarding the Seed. Telling us, once again, with feeling, that if the seed can connect the spiritual realms to this new Twilight sex eden you created (you have no idea if it's an eden - it has demons invading your world, doubt it's an eden), maybe we can use it to heal the earth, chase the demons out...maybe we can use it to make the world better, Buffy. (Sigh, it's in the hellmouth, Willow and guarded by a vampire - do you really think it was designed to make butterflies and puppies? Well maybe demented ones.)
The Master and apparently the Seed who is pulling the Master's strings (what's with all this string pulling? Anyone else think Whedon has spent far too much time watching the Puppet Master triology on DVD?) has gotten tired of Buffy and smacks her. Then it smacks Spike. (Spike gets smacked around a lot. Apparently Spike's main role in the Buffy comics is to be smacked and to provide exposition that leads us well in a circle.) During this bit we finally get an explanation as to why Buffy appears to have no super-powers in the Seed Chamber - it's kryptonite - or if you aren't into Superman pop culture references - it depletes her power. So Willow sends Buffy upstairs, while she stands below to allegedly help the Master protect the Seed. (She's doing it for much the same reason she gave Angel back his soul in Becoming, erased Tara's memories in Tabla Rasa, brought Buffy back from the dead, and tried to end the world - to, you know, make things better. Willow is the original control freak and I'm guessing Whedon's avatar, takes one to know one. )
Buffy to Giles: You looked all over Europe for this?
Giles: The hellmouth never occurred to me (again why would it? The seed didn't exist until Whedon came up with it.) But it makes perfect sense. (it's also very convienent for the metaphor the writer is busy setting up, be rather inconveient if the seed was I don't know in Russia - because they'd have to fact check and everything, and well where's the metaphor chewiness in that? Same thing with Cleveland...boring Cleveland, much more chewy to put it in Sunnydale where everything began.)
Buffy: It can kill me? (Don't worry, if it does, you'll come back, you always do.) It can kill Angel? (We should be so lucky.)
Giles: Buffy you must understand...the prophecy of Twilight was unclear (what's with was, it's still unclear) but terrifying (mostly boring, actually).
Buffy: I get it. All this started when we shared the power (you and Angel? No wait, you mean in S7 with the empowerment spell?)...we changed the world. (Uh no, all this started when you didn't kill Angel way back in S1 - if you did, this would never have happened. Or if you want to be picky - when you didn't kill Angel and chose to shag his brains out instead in issue 34 - if you'd showed a bit of restraint...this wouldn't have happened. Next time think with your brain and not your crotch.) There's bound to be causalities (such as the 200 slayers Angel killed or had a hand in killing, and OZ's family etc...or are you just referring to yourself and Angel again?) Wouldn't be the first time for me..it's what we do. (Sigh. It is you and Angel. Alrighty then. Playing the matryed hero - how incredibly selfless of you. )
Back to Flying/Glowing!Kitty - who has done to Angel pretty much what Angel did to Buffy in issue 34, except Buffy still could think and restrain herself from shagging him or so I've been told, still a bit confused on that bit.
And the General - who now has dark hair and not gray - apparently life in captivity suits him, plus much thinner, he's looking rather buff, has decapitated one of the robotic cockroaches. The one who hates the fact that Spike is working for a Queen Bee like another Drone. (A clear allusion to Angel working for the Queen Bee like a Drone. And how Buffy's army are drones. Etc.) The General is basically being set up to convince Xander to betray Buffy to protect Dawn (and humanity, but mainly Dawn.)
Spike advises Buffy that while he loves fighting by her side (no idea why, all he gets is smacked upside the head for his trouble), that he can't follow her into the sunlight (guess he's not carrying a blanket this time around?). This conversation really goes nowhere. Actually this whole issue really goes nowhere. It's repetitive filler. We already know pretty much everything that is stated here - from the previous two issues. At any rate - Giles says goodbye to Buffy, as to where Giles is headed, I've no clue. I can speculate of course. But I'd have to care, and I don't. Giles ceased being interesting five to six issues back.
The General - who now looks more like Gerald Butler and less like Brian Dennehy (they changed actors in mid-stride) is getting aid at the same hospital as Dawn. And he persuades Xander that you know destroying the seed is not a bad idea...(can't say I disagree - I mean it stops the vampires, demons, and witchcraft from coming in and limits the supernatural armies...where's the bad? Yeah, I know it's more complicated than that - it also stops the good magic and is a metaphor for a soul or the old world's soul, which the new world wants to steal.)
And his spiel about power sounds a hell of lot like Whedon: "Are they so addicted to it, they want all this too?" (Yes, just to be sure you are keeping track - we are once again examining the whole Willow's addicted to power bit. I'm admittedly tired of stories regarding how power corrupts you.
All the cool kids are doing it, let's do it too.)
We shift to Willow - who clearly will sell her soul to protect the seed and preserve the status quo or if that doesn't work take it's power and turn the world into the place she wants it to be.
And finally the big shocking plot twist that no one was supposed to see coming from a mile away...
Angel is Twilight. He smacks Buffy, he smacks Spike. He's the big bad and he wants to steal the seed and destroy the world (again). Buffy appears to be shocked by this (why I've no clue. It's not like he hasn't been the big bad for the last 34 issues and counting, we just had a four issue reprieve. Nor is he really acting all that differently than he did with the mask on. ) Buffy also looks at Angel with love and adoration, thinking "my hero" - which makes no sense whatsoever. Why would she look at him that way? He hasn't done anything heroic in ages. And he has given her no reason to love or trust him. Actually a lot of reasons not to. I can't think of any reason why she would be happy to see him again. Yes, he killed the horrible monster, but he's actually a far worse monster than that thing is, and well he brought that horrible monster to begin with.
*************
This story only works on one level - which is the juicy metaphors that people have been having a field day with. But, you need more than that for a story to work. Also it might help if you liked those juicy metaphors, which I don't. I find them to be rather offensive actually and somewhat disturbing.
The characters feel like they've been crammed into the story. They haven't evolved. They have no arc. Most of them act pretty much the same way they acted in S2 of Buffy, as if S3 -7 of Buffy, and S1-5 of Angel never happened. In Angel - Spike and Angel had become more than squabbling brothers, they'd become friends. They had each other's backs. They had moved past "Buffy".
Those two characters would not do what they are doing here. Angel would never in a million years drop everything to make Buffy's life better. I'm not saying he wouldn't get manipulated by a prophecy and the chance to be the big hero and change the world - he would, but not how the writer has written it. Angel cares about Connor. The things he does here - would destroy and kill Connor.
He also cares about his friends and his city, Buffy has not been the center of his universe since well S3 Buffy. If she was, he would have left everything and come running in S5, S6, and S7. He didn't.
Also, we're talking about a character who went through the whole higher being manipulation bit already - he learned from it, he tossed being the manipulated hero and prophecy guy aside in Not Fade Away - that was the whole point of signing away the Shanshu. These comics act as if Angel S5 never happened. Maybe it didn't in this verse.
Granted redemption storylines aren't everyone's cup of cocoa, but I rather like them and I thought Whedon did as well. The redemption stories were actually one of the things I loved most about Buffy and Angel and Firefly and Doctor Horrible and Dollhouse and well all of Whedon's work. In his speech at the Cultural Humanist Society - Whedon makes a big deal about redemption. How it is important to him. I'm not seeing that here. Granted that may well be S9...but how many times are you going to throw the characters down the abyss and attempt to pull them up again? Also, I don't care any more. I don't want this Angel redeemed, I want him dead or sealed off for eternity in a hell dimension.
Plus, I'm told Angel isn't in his right mind or is possessed. But his worst crimes were committed when he was clearly in his right mind. That's when he killed all the slayers, critically wounded OZ and his wife, and waged war on Buffy and humanity, and enabled the vampires to become heroes.
As for Spike? I don't what his purpose is exactly. He appears to be playing the same role he did in Becoming, the Gift, Chosen, etc - except he was interesting in those stories. Here..he really isn't. Although I will state he's possibly the only character I remotely care about in this comic.
Xander? He's considering betraying Buffy to save humanity or whoever he's in love with again. Can't say I blame him. Actually I like Xander, and that annoys me. Why is it that Xander is the only character that hasn't been ripped to shreds? That doesn't require redemption? That is okay?
And this is a feminist comic book? Alrighty then. Feels more like a male fanboy fantasy to me.
And it's not like we don't have enough comic books for the fanboys.
Willow? Same story, second viewing. We've seen it before. I'm rather ambivalent to be honest. Willow can't handle power, she's tempted by it, not wise about it like Giles. She wants to change the world. She needs to be managed. And she's listening to a snake lady, who is hot.
Giles? I lost interest in Giles, who by the way was one of my favorite characters and the reason I started watching the series, a long time ago. He was interesting with Faith for a bit, but they dropped that story like a hot potato. Now he's back to fatherly figure, with empty compliments and platitudes. There's speculation that he will try to kill Buffy or Angel, but well, we should be so lucky.
Buffy - sigh, this character makes no sense to me. The character I grew to love would never in a million years have done what she did with Angel. She had moved on. He was her dream, but she knew the reality. They weren't in each other's lives. And she had grown up. Grown past him. Or so I thought. Guess I was wrong. In Whedon's head she's still 17 and all googly-eyed. The writer had not given any reason for why she'd love Angel. Memory? That's not good enough. She has been reduced to a brainless twit. I could buy this whole Angel/Buffy bit if Angel had entered the story a lot sooner and was fighting along her side and actually involved in her life in an active way.
But to bring him in - how long has it been? Let's see at least three years since Chosen, and possibly five since Season 3. This whole bit made sense in S3, it made sense in S2 - it does not make any sense now! Romantic nostaglia is not enough to make you ditch all your friends and family and shag some old boyfriend who clearly didn't care enough about you to help you through your depression, with the finances, or anything else. Angel only shows up when it is convienent for Angel - how's that romantic? And Buffy does the same thing in regards to Angel. To my knowledge - Buffy doesn't know Angel has a son, or anything about his friends. When he called her group for help regarding Fred - they ignored him. And she made it clear she didn't trust him or want anything to do with him when he was running WRH. So why in the hell would she want anything to do with him when she discovers he's the guy who has made her life hell for two years? Mind-boggling.
The writer tries to tell me it's because she just wants to give into the power - that she lusts for the power and that Angel represents that. But I'm sorry - that doesn't work. You can't manipulate your characters into doing stuff just to make a point or build a thematic arc. That's bad writing.
I can feel the writer behind the scenes. I see him in the panels. I hear him. And I shouldn't.
He should be invisible. And I don't like what I'm seeing. At all.
What's he's done to Buffy and Angel - I've never seen anyone do, although I've admittedly not read comics in quite some time - so maybe it's comic book thing? The supporting players are actually doing okay, Andrew, Spike, Dawn, and Faith...at least so far. But the leads? They've been reduced to stereotypical archetypes and cliches. The story is a cliche in some respects and has been done better by the same writer elsewhere. (Although, I've come to the conclusion that I may have given Whedon far too much credit...). Actually I like how Caprica and Battle Star Galatica explored these themes far more than Whedon currently is.
I'm at the point in this story in which I'm wondering dear reader why I'm still bothering with them. They aren't that expensive, true. But the story...is not one I want to read. Yet, at the same time, I am admittedly curious. I keep hoping it will change, get better somehow. But I can't see how.
Next issue is Buffy fighting Twangel, but my reaction was - wait didn't she already do that? Or isn't that what she should have done in issue 34. Speculation is everyone is going to betray everybody but in particular Buffy - yep. Wish I cared. I don't. I don't like this Buffy and I can't stand this Angel.
Yes, yes, Angel is prophecies poster child, I don't disagree with that. But he's not a one-dimensional character which he is being portrayed as here. The character that is in this comic book series is allegorical. This character is a strawman, a puppet. He has no depth. There's no reason why I should care if he lives or dies. He's basically Captain Hammar. And Angel, the character of Angel was never Captain Hammar. If anything Angel was far closer to Malcolm Reynolds, except a bit more complicated. Whedon admitted at the Cultural Humanist lecture that he never understood the Angel character - that is abundantly clear here. If you don't understand a character? Don't write it. Or at the very least put in the effort to figure him out. Don't shang-hai him or her to make a point. Buffy's been reduced to a hollow avatar, an allegory, a lesson, and Angel much the same. It's a shame because these were interesting and complex characters who deserved a lot more from the writer who aided in their creation.
Admittedly on the fence about writing this. Partly because I'm tired, it's been a long weekend and looks to be an even longer work week ahead, and I do not feel like debating Buffy comics on the internet. And partly because I'm guessing some of you may well be thinking, why are you still reading the comics if you don't like them? Well, see the thing of it is? I did like them more or less, until about issue 33 or 34, where they just jumped over the bloody shark and kept right on going and as a result showed me in big neon letters what was wrong with them and the entire series, and well everything Whedon has done. The meta and reviews I've read since have only aided in that reveal.
Now? It's a matter of wanting to know a) will they get better? Maybe they will get better? Maybe everything will get better??? Maybe what I see isn't what I'm seeing? And I'll be proven wrong?? (sigh hope it's a thing that I cling to...after 38 issues, you'd think I'd give up, but nooo.) b) curiousity as to how worse can this get, and b) where is it headed, and c) figuring what the frigging hell this writer is thinking doing it to begin with. ie. Curiousity killed the proverbial cat (although apparently not the one in the comics) and all that. (Don't believe me - go read my past meta on the comics, you can find it under the tag - buffy s8 comic, I think, admittedly horrid at the whole tagging enterprise, in lj - you'll notice in reading the meta prior to issue 32 or thereabouts, that I actually did like the damn things. God knows why...maybe I should go back an re-read the meta??).
Thought about doing a poll - asking folks, do you want another bleeding review on this issue? A snarky one that is going to basically rip it to shreds and analyze it at the same time? Really? You sure about that? And chose not to. Because I'm not sure I want to know. Besides if you don't - you can ignore me. Here - I'll help, by putting the whole thing beneath a cut tag. If you want to read a positive review or meta of the comics? Let me know and I'll steer you in the right direction. There's at least two good one's I've read to date.
So "Twilight" - as near as I can figure Twilight is a sentient universe that for reasons that defy explanation has chosen to take the form of a flying lion. Note it is not a chimera - chimeras are lion, goat, bird and snake - this one sort of skipped two animals. Granted Jeanty and DH aren't exactly up in the fact checking department - so they may well think this is what a chimera looks like, but I doubt it. Male or female? - Hard to know. Could go both ways. Personally I prefer "it" - since I find the female gender application mildly offensive, but considering there are so many things about this story that I find offensive, I'm giving it a pass and not going to delve too deeply into it. Would however be nice if we got a bit more explanation as to what the heck Twilight is supposed to be. Yeah, I know the embodiment of a sentient universe that apparently has the ability to time travel in order to manipulate its own conception. Hate to say this? But the Jasmine arc, as convoluted as that was, actually made more sense and was a lot less offensive (which is saying a lot.) In case you were asleep during the Jasmine arc or just skipped it - a quick rehash: "Higher being decides to change the world for the better, manipulates Angel into ensuring it's conception via his son and ex-girlfriend and voila. Also manipulates Angel in being its champion until Fred literally punchs a blood stained bullet through Angel's chest, giving him a mighty wake up call. And he or rather Connor, actually, kills higher being, because Connor's the only one who can, since he's its father, the mother is in a coma and out of action." Something tells me it will take a lot more than a bullet to wake up Angel this round, but then unlike the Jasmine arc - Angel was a willing participant a bit like Connor actually (although Connor's willing participation made a lot more sense). Angel remember wanted to give birth to the new universe (or maybe I misunderstood his whole explanatory speech to Buffy in issue 35?) - that was the whole point of his Twilight crusade the last four years (or was it two, felt like four). In short, Angel comes out better in the Jasmine arc, heck, Cordelia comes out better than Angel in that arc as did Connor (who was actually in the Angel role) for that matter - than Angel does in this one. Even Jasmine..she doesn't want to replace the world with herself, she just wants to control it and give people peace and tranquility. Which makes me think that I did not give Fury, Greenwalt, Deknight, and Minear nearly enough credit. Also makes me wonder a bit about Whedon. He's done this story thread how many times now? Three? Possibly four if we include Alien Resurrection.
So we have the newly sentient universe that has decided to take the form of some green glowy flying lion (that makes me think of the Wizard of OZ for some reason), which decides to turn Angel into its puppet. (Again). And pretty much whines for about five possibly six panels about being abandoned by Daddy and Mommy and not respected. (Basically Angel's line for the last 245 years.)
Talk about karma. First Connor, now Universe or Flying!Kitty (if you prefer) are echoing Angel's own diatribe back at him. He more or less said the same thing to his biological father, then latter Darla and the Master.
Flying!Kitty: "Mother rejected me for Lack of Conflict" (well, she does have a short attention span, I really wouldn't take it personally) "Look at this place though! It is so clearly waning."(Hey, say that after you've been to Bali, not while your sitting in a bombed out field somewhere in Southern California...) "I will be more monsterous. More beautiful. Than anything she has ever feared or fantasized."(Channeling Glory now are we? )
At any rate - same speech that Angel gave the Master more or less. And Darla.
Moving on...Angel puts up a good front about how he's going to fight Flying!Kitty to the bitter end. But let's face it - the time to fight Flying!Kitty has pretty much passed. And then Flying!Kitty channels Gigi from No Future For You. (Anyone else miss Gigi? Far more entertaining villain, in my opinion.) "The Queen is dead, long live me." (Right, thought you were a universe, now you are Queen? Make up your mind. You're either the ruler of the universe or the universe itself, you can't be both. This sort of reminds me of that really stupid Claremont comic book about the Sentient Island the X-men thought - where the new X-men were all introduced. It too was described as a she. Go figure.)
And I just love this quote by Flying!Kitty.
IT was Buffy who set it all in motion. When she activated the other slayers..
It's echoed later here:
All this started when we shared the power. We changed the world. Bound to be some casualities
I have problems with this pov - for one major reason, it forces you to examine the fact that the heroine was set up to fail from the beginning. That she may only have power if some guy is managing it. That women can't handle physical power on their own. And it certainly shouldn't be shared. Heaven forbid there be a lot of women, super-powered women, with more power than the guys.
Also, it reminds us that Buffy's power was forced on her by men. She has always been the tool or weapon of men. Her decision to let all the potentials have power - without some man finding them first and training them, separating them from family and loved ones, and turning them into a tool is considered a bad idea in S8. Granted - there are ethical issues, the girls didn't necessarily choose power, it gave them nightmares (slayer dreams) and it made them a target for vamps. But if you explore those "ethical" issues too long...you end up having to also examine the basic premise and foundation of the series as a whole, and it's heroine. You also have to examine the writer and his body of work. And does Whedon really want us to do that? Go too far down that path, and you see Warren Miers creating the Buffy Bot.
Whedon attempts to fix this by having the Flying!Kitty use Angel as its power or tool. It imbues Angel with power much the same way Buffy is, except Angel is provided no agency, no control. Buffy at least has agency. Which may be a metaphor for the vampire - which is a character that does not have agency without a soul. Or so we're told. The problem? The writer can't make up his mind. Sometimes Angel and vampires have agency, sometimes they don't - it depends on the writer's mood.
Consistency is something that is sorely lacking in this story. It's always been lacking to some degree or another, but here - it's obvious.
Anywho...Flying!Kitty tells an Angel, who tries to resist, that he will finish this. Now, this doesn't get Angel off the hook. First off - what did he think was going to happen when he chose to kill hundreds of slayers, fill Buffy with power, shag her through time and space, and birth a new world? He can't be a complete idiot, right? He even tells her in his explanation way back in issue 35, where he is not possessed by Flying!Kitty - that the old world doesn't work and he's manipulated her into helping him create a new one where they can live happily ever after. (Hmmm, apparently Angel got hold of tapes of I Will Always Remember You - decided his decision in that episode was really stupid and he should have just seduced and then carted Buffy off to paradise instead of wiping her memory and setting her back to her old life while he pursued his? )
So the only difference between Angel in this issue and Angel in the first oh 35 comics...is that he's been possessed and that he isn't killing innocent bystanders and random slayers, as well as all of Buffy's army to get her to a place in which she'll give in to the power, shag his brains out and make a universe. (Without any labor pains - well not unless you count all the people who got killed.) Possessed Angel is only interested in taking the seed giving it to the new universe and eradicting everyone in the old one. Wait...what's the difference again? Maybe genocide by degree?
Back to the Scooby Gang and the Master (who has been resurrected by the Seed of Wonder to well protect the Seed of Wonder.)
Willow's statement is actually a really good example of how incoherent and repetitive this comic's plot has become: "The word important isn't important enough for how important it is." Okay, we have important repeated three times and the sentence goes in a circle. That's basically what the plot sounds like.
According to the Master? He was only restored when Twilight chose Angel/us to be its sire. Poor Angel he keeps being chosen as everyone's stud. He and Cordelia should hook up...oh wait.
Makes sense the seed chose the Master - who is actually as important to Angel as he is to Buffy, possibly more so - the Master is Angel's vampire father, his grandsire. The Master is to Angel what Angel more or less is to Spike. Angelus did what he did to prove himself to The Master.
Giles: "Before Twilight I hadn't thought the seed was real much less under our noses" (that's because the writer didn't come up with it until recently...so how were you supposed to know, if the god of your verse just came up with it?)
Willow: So it was just hiding behind the hellmouth pulling the Master's strings all those years...all those lives without him knowing.."(Apparently the apple doesn't fall far from the tree?
Get it? Angel no agency, Master no agency...although this is a bit confusing since they do appear to have agency at some points and not others - depending on Whedon's mood and what point he wants to make. Whedon? Hon? The vampires either have free will or they don't. You can't have it both ways. Well you can, but you will confuse your audience and they will wander off and become Doctor Who fans, which by the way is a far more consistent verse and considering it's been written by different writers over a 40 year time period that's saying something.)
Xander and Buffy decide the Master's love of the Seed would explain why he bears a shocking resemblance to Gollum. (Actually I think he looks more like Nostrefutru but that's just me, Gollum was shorter and cuter.)
The Master: You think you understand the seed? You don't even understand Twilight! Remove the seed. And you doom your world! (Actually no one understands the seed or Twilight including the readers, which considering this is the 38th issue in a 40 run comic - and we've had a chock ful of exposition which basically consists of "the word important isn't important enough for how important it is"...don't you think now would be a great time to explain it?) Remove the See and You Doom Your World. (well that part we all do get...actually.) Has she tole you there's a place in her new world for you? (no, because she doesn't seem to understand the whole bit about a new world) No -- she and Angelus will see you all dead. (Well, Angel maybe - that's been a give since issue 33 or was it 34 when he was revealed as the guy going around and killing people, but the jury is still out on the Buffster.)
Buffy:Wow this guy is really challenged by the major plot points.
Dawn: He's not the only one. (So say we all.)
We flash to Faith and Andrew fighting above. Or is that Riley? I can't tell. But I'm pretty sure it is Faith. And Riley was dead or nearly dead the last we saw of him. Speaking of...Dawn gets hurt, not killed as promised, just hurt. (Although it is possible they'll kill her, but I'm not holding my breath. So no worries on that front. Satsu, and the other random slayers...on the other hand...)
And Xander realizes he has to carry Dawn to safety. Except she's too heavy for him, so he asks Buffy to do it. Dawn is understandably annoyed.
The Master meanwhile tries to talk Buffy into joining forces with him to protect the seed, a speech that is a bit too reminiscent of his speech to her way back in S1 when he bit her and left her to drown. Can't quite blame her for reacting with a bit of violence. But Willow stops her - because Willow has decided destroying the seed is a bad thing or rather has been informed it is by her trustworthy snake demon.
Buffy: "It's not enough to side with our original big bad -- now we're working for him." (Yet, you have no trouble shagging the guy who killed half your army, critically wounded OZ, his wife and family, destroyed his home, critically wounded Riley, and numerous innocent people and slayers? OR tried to kill you at least twice and tried to destroy the world three times now? Honey, I think you need a refresher course on Big Bads. Angel makes the Master look like a harmless vamp in comparison.)
Giles: I don't know that the Master is any worse than Dracula.
Buffy: He's a monster and he killed me. (apparently killing you is worse than killing all your friends and the slayers you empowered - nice to know, also helps that he's ugly as all get out. Buffy you are a shallow girl.).
Willow meanwhile is fascinated by the Seed. Is it me or is she channeling the guy from Lord of the Rings who kept trying to convince Frodo to give the ring to him because with it they could change the world. (Maybe Whedon's been watching marathon runs of the Lord of the Rings in his spare time?)
Just me then.
Willow gives us a bit of explanation regarding the Seed. Telling us, once again, with feeling, that if the seed can connect the spiritual realms to this new Twilight sex eden you created (you have no idea if it's an eden - it has demons invading your world, doubt it's an eden), maybe we can use it to heal the earth, chase the demons out...maybe we can use it to make the world better, Buffy. (Sigh, it's in the hellmouth, Willow and guarded by a vampire - do you really think it was designed to make butterflies and puppies? Well maybe demented ones.)
The Master and apparently the Seed who is pulling the Master's strings (what's with all this string pulling? Anyone else think Whedon has spent far too much time watching the Puppet Master triology on DVD?) has gotten tired of Buffy and smacks her. Then it smacks Spike. (Spike gets smacked around a lot. Apparently Spike's main role in the Buffy comics is to be smacked and to provide exposition that leads us well in a circle.) During this bit we finally get an explanation as to why Buffy appears to have no super-powers in the Seed Chamber - it's kryptonite - or if you aren't into Superman pop culture references - it depletes her power. So Willow sends Buffy upstairs, while she stands below to allegedly help the Master protect the Seed. (She's doing it for much the same reason she gave Angel back his soul in Becoming, erased Tara's memories in Tabla Rasa, brought Buffy back from the dead, and tried to end the world - to, you know, make things better. Willow is the original control freak and I'm guessing Whedon's avatar, takes one to know one. )
Buffy to Giles: You looked all over Europe for this?
Giles: The hellmouth never occurred to me (again why would it? The seed didn't exist until Whedon came up with it.) But it makes perfect sense. (it's also very convienent for the metaphor the writer is busy setting up, be rather inconveient if the seed was I don't know in Russia - because they'd have to fact check and everything, and well where's the metaphor chewiness in that? Same thing with Cleveland...boring Cleveland, much more chewy to put it in Sunnydale where everything began.)
Buffy: It can kill me? (Don't worry, if it does, you'll come back, you always do.) It can kill Angel? (We should be so lucky.)
Giles: Buffy you must understand...the prophecy of Twilight was unclear (what's with was, it's still unclear) but terrifying (mostly boring, actually).
Buffy: I get it. All this started when we shared the power (you and Angel? No wait, you mean in S7 with the empowerment spell?)...we changed the world. (Uh no, all this started when you didn't kill Angel way back in S1 - if you did, this would never have happened. Or if you want to be picky - when you didn't kill Angel and chose to shag his brains out instead in issue 34 - if you'd showed a bit of restraint...this wouldn't have happened. Next time think with your brain and not your crotch.) There's bound to be causalities (such as the 200 slayers Angel killed or had a hand in killing, and OZ's family etc...or are you just referring to yourself and Angel again?) Wouldn't be the first time for me..it's what we do. (Sigh. It is you and Angel. Alrighty then. Playing the matryed hero - how incredibly selfless of you. )
Back to Flying/Glowing!Kitty - who has done to Angel pretty much what Angel did to Buffy in issue 34, except Buffy still could think and restrain herself from shagging him or so I've been told, still a bit confused on that bit.
And the General - who now has dark hair and not gray - apparently life in captivity suits him, plus much thinner, he's looking rather buff, has decapitated one of the robotic cockroaches. The one who hates the fact that Spike is working for a Queen Bee like another Drone. (A clear allusion to Angel working for the Queen Bee like a Drone. And how Buffy's army are drones. Etc.) The General is basically being set up to convince Xander to betray Buffy to protect Dawn (and humanity, but mainly Dawn.)
Spike advises Buffy that while he loves fighting by her side (no idea why, all he gets is smacked upside the head for his trouble), that he can't follow her into the sunlight (guess he's not carrying a blanket this time around?). This conversation really goes nowhere. Actually this whole issue really goes nowhere. It's repetitive filler. We already know pretty much everything that is stated here - from the previous two issues. At any rate - Giles says goodbye to Buffy, as to where Giles is headed, I've no clue. I can speculate of course. But I'd have to care, and I don't. Giles ceased being interesting five to six issues back.
The General - who now looks more like Gerald Butler and less like Brian Dennehy (they changed actors in mid-stride) is getting aid at the same hospital as Dawn. And he persuades Xander that you know destroying the seed is not a bad idea...(can't say I disagree - I mean it stops the vampires, demons, and witchcraft from coming in and limits the supernatural armies...where's the bad? Yeah, I know it's more complicated than that - it also stops the good magic and is a metaphor for a soul or the old world's soul, which the new world wants to steal.)
And his spiel about power sounds a hell of lot like Whedon: "Are they so addicted to it, they want all this too?" (Yes, just to be sure you are keeping track - we are once again examining the whole Willow's addicted to power bit. I'm admittedly tired of stories regarding how power corrupts you.
All the cool kids are doing it, let's do it too.)
We shift to Willow - who clearly will sell her soul to protect the seed and preserve the status quo or if that doesn't work take it's power and turn the world into the place she wants it to be.
And finally the big shocking plot twist that no one was supposed to see coming from a mile away...
Angel is Twilight. He smacks Buffy, he smacks Spike. He's the big bad and he wants to steal the seed and destroy the world (again). Buffy appears to be shocked by this (why I've no clue. It's not like he hasn't been the big bad for the last 34 issues and counting, we just had a four issue reprieve. Nor is he really acting all that differently than he did with the mask on. ) Buffy also looks at Angel with love and adoration, thinking "my hero" - which makes no sense whatsoever. Why would she look at him that way? He hasn't done anything heroic in ages. And he has given her no reason to love or trust him. Actually a lot of reasons not to. I can't think of any reason why she would be happy to see him again. Yes, he killed the horrible monster, but he's actually a far worse monster than that thing is, and well he brought that horrible monster to begin with.
*************
This story only works on one level - which is the juicy metaphors that people have been having a field day with. But, you need more than that for a story to work. Also it might help if you liked those juicy metaphors, which I don't. I find them to be rather offensive actually and somewhat disturbing.
The characters feel like they've been crammed into the story. They haven't evolved. They have no arc. Most of them act pretty much the same way they acted in S2 of Buffy, as if S3 -7 of Buffy, and S1-5 of Angel never happened. In Angel - Spike and Angel had become more than squabbling brothers, they'd become friends. They had each other's backs. They had moved past "Buffy".
Those two characters would not do what they are doing here. Angel would never in a million years drop everything to make Buffy's life better. I'm not saying he wouldn't get manipulated by a prophecy and the chance to be the big hero and change the world - he would, but not how the writer has written it. Angel cares about Connor. The things he does here - would destroy and kill Connor.
He also cares about his friends and his city, Buffy has not been the center of his universe since well S3 Buffy. If she was, he would have left everything and come running in S5, S6, and S7. He didn't.
Also, we're talking about a character who went through the whole higher being manipulation bit already - he learned from it, he tossed being the manipulated hero and prophecy guy aside in Not Fade Away - that was the whole point of signing away the Shanshu. These comics act as if Angel S5 never happened. Maybe it didn't in this verse.
Granted redemption storylines aren't everyone's cup of cocoa, but I rather like them and I thought Whedon did as well. The redemption stories were actually one of the things I loved most about Buffy and Angel and Firefly and Doctor Horrible and Dollhouse and well all of Whedon's work. In his speech at the Cultural Humanist Society - Whedon makes a big deal about redemption. How it is important to him. I'm not seeing that here. Granted that may well be S9...but how many times are you going to throw the characters down the abyss and attempt to pull them up again? Also, I don't care any more. I don't want this Angel redeemed, I want him dead or sealed off for eternity in a hell dimension.
Plus, I'm told Angel isn't in his right mind or is possessed. But his worst crimes were committed when he was clearly in his right mind. That's when he killed all the slayers, critically wounded OZ and his wife, and waged war on Buffy and humanity, and enabled the vampires to become heroes.
As for Spike? I don't what his purpose is exactly. He appears to be playing the same role he did in Becoming, the Gift, Chosen, etc - except he was interesting in those stories. Here..he really isn't. Although I will state he's possibly the only character I remotely care about in this comic.
Xander? He's considering betraying Buffy to save humanity or whoever he's in love with again. Can't say I blame him. Actually I like Xander, and that annoys me. Why is it that Xander is the only character that hasn't been ripped to shreds? That doesn't require redemption? That is okay?
And this is a feminist comic book? Alrighty then. Feels more like a male fanboy fantasy to me.
And it's not like we don't have enough comic books for the fanboys.
Willow? Same story, second viewing. We've seen it before. I'm rather ambivalent to be honest. Willow can't handle power, she's tempted by it, not wise about it like Giles. She wants to change the world. She needs to be managed. And she's listening to a snake lady, who is hot.
Giles? I lost interest in Giles, who by the way was one of my favorite characters and the reason I started watching the series, a long time ago. He was interesting with Faith for a bit, but they dropped that story like a hot potato. Now he's back to fatherly figure, with empty compliments and platitudes. There's speculation that he will try to kill Buffy or Angel, but well, we should be so lucky.
Buffy - sigh, this character makes no sense to me. The character I grew to love would never in a million years have done what she did with Angel. She had moved on. He was her dream, but she knew the reality. They weren't in each other's lives. And she had grown up. Grown past him. Or so I thought. Guess I was wrong. In Whedon's head she's still 17 and all googly-eyed. The writer had not given any reason for why she'd love Angel. Memory? That's not good enough. She has been reduced to a brainless twit. I could buy this whole Angel/Buffy bit if Angel had entered the story a lot sooner and was fighting along her side and actually involved in her life in an active way.
But to bring him in - how long has it been? Let's see at least three years since Chosen, and possibly five since Season 3. This whole bit made sense in S3, it made sense in S2 - it does not make any sense now! Romantic nostaglia is not enough to make you ditch all your friends and family and shag some old boyfriend who clearly didn't care enough about you to help you through your depression, with the finances, or anything else. Angel only shows up when it is convienent for Angel - how's that romantic? And Buffy does the same thing in regards to Angel. To my knowledge - Buffy doesn't know Angel has a son, or anything about his friends. When he called her group for help regarding Fred - they ignored him. And she made it clear she didn't trust him or want anything to do with him when he was running WRH. So why in the hell would she want anything to do with him when she discovers he's the guy who has made her life hell for two years? Mind-boggling.
The writer tries to tell me it's because she just wants to give into the power - that she lusts for the power and that Angel represents that. But I'm sorry - that doesn't work. You can't manipulate your characters into doing stuff just to make a point or build a thematic arc. That's bad writing.
I can feel the writer behind the scenes. I see him in the panels. I hear him. And I shouldn't.
He should be invisible. And I don't like what I'm seeing. At all.
What's he's done to Buffy and Angel - I've never seen anyone do, although I've admittedly not read comics in quite some time - so maybe it's comic book thing? The supporting players are actually doing okay, Andrew, Spike, Dawn, and Faith...at least so far. But the leads? They've been reduced to stereotypical archetypes and cliches. The story is a cliche in some respects and has been done better by the same writer elsewhere. (Although, I've come to the conclusion that I may have given Whedon far too much credit...). Actually I like how Caprica and Battle Star Galatica explored these themes far more than Whedon currently is.
I'm at the point in this story in which I'm wondering dear reader why I'm still bothering with them. They aren't that expensive, true. But the story...is not one I want to read. Yet, at the same time, I am admittedly curious. I keep hoping it will change, get better somehow. But I can't see how.
Next issue is Buffy fighting Twangel, but my reaction was - wait didn't she already do that? Or isn't that what she should have done in issue 34. Speculation is everyone is going to betray everybody but in particular Buffy - yep. Wish I cared. I don't. I don't like this Buffy and I can't stand this Angel.
Yes, yes, Angel is prophecies poster child, I don't disagree with that. But he's not a one-dimensional character which he is being portrayed as here. The character that is in this comic book series is allegorical. This character is a strawman, a puppet. He has no depth. There's no reason why I should care if he lives or dies. He's basically Captain Hammar. And Angel, the character of Angel was never Captain Hammar. If anything Angel was far closer to Malcolm Reynolds, except a bit more complicated. Whedon admitted at the Cultural Humanist lecture that he never understood the Angel character - that is abundantly clear here. If you don't understand a character? Don't write it. Or at the very least put in the effort to figure him out. Don't shang-hai him or her to make a point. Buffy's been reduced to a hollow avatar, an allegory, a lesson, and Angel much the same. It's a shame because these were interesting and complex characters who deserved a lot more from the writer who aided in their creation.
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Date: 2010-11-08 10:51 pm (UTC)Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your point of view, the fandom is a bit split on the comics. There doesn't appear to be much consensus (or maybe there is? Should probably do another poll? But would it be informative? Hard to know.).
I know for example - that there are at least 8-10 people on my own flist that are still enjoying the Buffy comics and vehementally disagree with me on pretty much all of the above. They are being nice and restraining themselves from in engaging in a debate, because I politely asked them not to. Really have no interest in debating with them about this particular topic, because I am not going to change my mind. I know their perspective and I respectively disagree with it. Hey, we don't think the same way and that's okay.
It does however pose a problem...in that we can't really tell Whedon where to go - because we aren't exactly united. Reminds me of the recent US political elections. Life would be so much easier if everyone agreed with me, boring, but easier...I say that after a long day at work - dealing with difficult people. ;-)