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shadowkat1. Wasted a heck of a lot of time last night reading this very long comment thread to a 2016 review of a Mary Balough historical romance novel in Smart Bitches. I read it - partly out of curiosity and partly to see if I wanted to read the book. It was allegedly on sale for $2.99 on Kindle (via Amazon). So after reading the whole thread - which was a long thread - I checked out the book on Amazon, only to discover the sale was over - and it was $11.99 now. Hard pass. (It tend to buy books on sale mostly now via Kindle.)
The 2016 review in of itself was hardly memorable, but the comment thread had three historical novelists respond to it. The writer of the book (which surprised me, she's a major author and they rarely do that), and two other authors - Courtney Milan, and Suleikha Snyder, who spends more time causing trouble on social media than writing books, actually they both do.
In actuality, the most interesting comment is on the second page of the comments thread near the very bottom, by an individual from Asia, who lives in Asia. They react to the long kerfuffle over the two "alleged" problematic items in Balough's novel as "you people are insane". Notably no one really responded to these two comments. And backed off. Mainly because we had a logical person jump in there and tell them they were all being self-righteous twits and get over themselves. It's a historical romance novel. Spend their time worrying about actual fixable problems not how someone might slur them unintentionally in a historical romance novel.
" This whole conversation is just insane to me. I’m Asian, an anthropologist, and I fluently speak multiple languages (all of which are considered languages of Asia besides English.) I did not even remotely find the author racist. Do people in the US not know what racist means anymore?
Generally if you have a background in the history of Martial arts (or Tai chi) in Asia you would know there is a mysticism behind it. Martial arts (and tai chi) aren’t about protection they’re about connecting with your inner self. Therefore mystifying a martial arts master isn’t racism it’s quite accurate. You need to remember while we all put a negative mark on stereotypes they all have some basis of truth to them whether we want to acknowledge it or not.
Also to follow up with the use of oriental- it’s really not seen as offensive anywhere except to my knowledge- in the US. If someone who is Chinese is going to have a racial slur spit at them the chances of it being ‘oriental’ is zero to none because it’s not a racial slur. It literally translates as ‘from the orient’. I have never met a single person in my travels who considers oriental offensive, and I literally study cultures for a living. I’ve spent months to years in different countries and Oriental has never been a relevant or offensive discussion. America has so many race issues these days and luckily they don’t touch my nation or those I frequent because we’d really confused by what we’re supposed to be offended by. I’m more offended by the lack of clean drinking water in the slums I study than I am about the use of the word orient."
I told all of this to mother, who responded much as one might expect:
Mother: I think you should stay off the internet.
Me: Yeah, well, I got sucked down a rabbit hole...
Mother: And got tempted to respond -
Me: I did not respond. It was midnight. And - the thread was to a review done in 2016. It wasn't possible to respond any longer - it was a 2016 thread.
Mother: good. After all it's a historical romance novel - no one remembers these things or takes them remotely seriously. We read them for the same reason we might eat cotton candy, ice cream or chocolate. (Or play a video game.)
She's not wrong. The internet...well...is well the internet.
Those are two hours I won't get back any time soon.
I may have to ditch Smart Bitches - but alas, they alert me to cool sales. I got Slaughter House 5 on sale because of them, also a few Kingfisher books. I just tend to ignore their recommendations and reviews. Mainly because, I don't share their taste (they tend to prefer contemporary romance and it irritates me or really poorly written books by trade publishers).
I don't remember any of the plots of the romance novels I read. It's kind of the point of them? Pleasure reading. Something to pass the time on trains? A quick read. Enjoyable. Fun. Requires little attention, riles up emotions, not thoughts. Cotton candy for the mind. People who don't like to read for pleasure don't get it, and those who feel the need to critically analyze everything they read or watch, don't either. Despite what you may or may not think? I do not feel the need to critically analyze everything. I like to take breaks, and just enjoy fun characters.
2. Finished The Benevolent Society of Ill-Mannered Ladies by Alison Goodman. Per the afterward - the author apparently utilized two of the chapters from her book for her doctorate thesis. If I were to guess? I'd say it was the last two chapters. The first one was very tropey bordering on cliche. The second and third were about human trafficking and the horrible conditions in private asylums in the Regency Period.
The book was rec'd by a college pal who doesn't tend to read historical romance novels. Isn't really into character so much as plot and historical accuracy. (She's a nit-picker.) And is more into contemporary or mystery. So that alone should tell you all you need to know about the book?
She rec'd it to me because the lead character made her think of me, and she loved the book.
I...liked it? It was slow in places. And the writer was clearly more interested in detailing the results of her research than building the characters relationships or the characters? I loved the main character - who I felt was for the most part, well-developed, different, and relatable. It's rare to find a tall woman in a historical romance novel (the average woman is 5'4). And rarer style to find one who is single and forty-two years of age. Who has never been married. Or been with a man per se, yet is heterosexual. That's rare. Usually if they are above the age of twenty-six, they've been married and widowed, or ruined or something.
It doesn't resolve itself at the end. Oh, the caper is resolved. The romance is not. The hero is still at large, the heroine is still pining for him and trying to figure out how to get him off, and that's about that.
So no HEA, not there won't be one, if the writer ever decides to write a sequel. That's kind of rare for an historical romance novel. I think this is more a historical woman's fiction than romance, even though there is a romance in it - it's not the central focus of the novel - the capers are, and the research.
You can always tell an academic posing as a fictional novelist - they are more interested in telling you the history than well, the story? Look at all the things I found out, don't you want me to regale you with them in all their gory details! (ME: not really. I know enough horrible things thank you very much. I do not need to add yours to the bunch. Can I have more fun banter and story instead? Because if I wanted to know all of this - I could find it easily enough on my own for free no less.)
When it comes to historical romances? I actually prefer less historical accuracy and more romance. If I wanted historical accuracy, I wouldn't be reading a historical romance novel. They are known for a lot of things, but not necessarily historical accuracy.
The story is historically accurate - no problems there. Possibly too historically accurate? If that's possible?
It has three capers or cases the heroine has to solve - 1) rescue a woman from her husband who is attempting to kill her for not being able to bear his child, 2)rescue a few children, orphans and non-orphans from a brothel and trafficking them, 3) rescue the hero's sister and various women from an insane asylum, where the hero's brother committed her for being a lesbian. All three are accomplished in record time, but it is grueling. All the more so, because we're told by the author that this actually happened to people, and they weren't always or necessarily save. So trigger warning there.
First person limited narrator. And we get the breast removal surgery that was done to Fanny Burney - the name is changed to a Madam DeHerblay in the novel. But it is the same surgery and same details. I skimmed, it's brutal. Actually I did a lot of skimming in this book - the descriptions are not for the faint of heart. So another trigger warning?
I'd say it swings towards hyper-realism. The men are for the most part, difficult, except for three of them, possibly four (if you include the dead). And it delves into the difficulties of people of color, the working folks, and women during this time period. If anything I'd say it's more of a historical "feminist" novel than a romance. The writer takes no prisoners with her descriptions - which are brutal and gory in places. I skimmed over a lot of it. Because I didn't want that in my head. Also there's a heavy feminist slant to the text. The writer is Australian and a historian, who was writing her thesis for her doctorate at the same time she was writing this novel. (Honestly she's either independently wealthy or has a wealthy husband - because she also has a collection of 19th century clothing from that period, fencing materials, space, and time to get a doctoral degree while writing historical romance and fantasy novels. Most people don't make a ton of money as a novelist - folks, you do more often than not, require a second income from somewhere.)
3. Also finished Ancillary Justice by Anne Leckie - this was via audible or an audio book. I couldn't get into it on E-book, but audible worked for me. The narrator is amazing, she manages to do ten different voices, plus songs. I was impressed.
It's a hard sci-fi space opera book, emphasis on hard sci-fi. The point of view or protagonist is an ancillary of a spaceship, the Justice of Toren.
Breq is the name she goes by. She was destroyed by the ruler of the realm, and is seeking justice for her destroyed ancillary parts, and her friends on board the ship. She's AI or a piece of equipment - a human body turned into a part of a ship or ancillary part.
The story is told in the present, and via flashbacks to events that happened on board Justice of Toren over nineteen years ago. More engrossing than I thought it would be. Once I got past all the gender pronouns being she - because the Ancillary basically sees everyone as she or female, and can't tell the difference - it worked. It works better in audio - because the narrator was good at distinguishing the voices, so I could ignore the pronouns. I'm not sure why the writer went with she and not they, I'd have gone with they for the most part with an Ancillary, but I guess it's the traditional view that ships are given a female gender, and likewise would assume everyone else was female.
It's interesting in that the villain is rather complicated, as is the Ancillary's desire for justice. And it deals with the view - do the ends ever justify the means? The idea that to save the world - or the universe, you kill everyone who gets in your way of creating that ideal universe or vision? Is this justified? (What's disturbing to me is this theme keeps popping up in various stories I've read or seen in various media. It's most likely just a coincidence, but disturbing nonetheless. I saw it in Fall Out today as well. Everyone wants to save the world - they just disagree on how, and some seem to think that as long as they achieve their goal, whatever they do to get there is justified.)
And..
4) Finished Uncanny X-men 700 or X-men 35 which was 88 pages. That was a great read. Had similar themes to Ancillary Justice (again disturbing that), but overall uplifting. I rather enjoyed the conclusion to the Kraokan age arc, and am enjoying the few pages setting up the From the Ashes Arc. There's a special bit with Nightcrawler, Rogue and their two mom's (Mystique and Destiny) - which has the creator of the characters delve into their family issues revealing his thoughts about their family dating back to the 1980s and 90s. Marvel was always a bit more liberal and progressive than the other comic book institutions. Also more character focused. (Just stay clear of the online comic book fandom - they are frightening.)
The 2016 review in of itself was hardly memorable, but the comment thread had three historical novelists respond to it. The writer of the book (which surprised me, she's a major author and they rarely do that), and two other authors - Courtney Milan, and Suleikha Snyder, who spends more time causing trouble on social media than writing books, actually they both do.
In actuality, the most interesting comment is on the second page of the comments thread near the very bottom, by an individual from Asia, who lives in Asia. They react to the long kerfuffle over the two "alleged" problematic items in Balough's novel as "you people are insane". Notably no one really responded to these two comments. And backed off. Mainly because we had a logical person jump in there and tell them they were all being self-righteous twits and get over themselves. It's a historical romance novel. Spend their time worrying about actual fixable problems not how someone might slur them unintentionally in a historical romance novel.
" This whole conversation is just insane to me. I’m Asian, an anthropologist, and I fluently speak multiple languages (all of which are considered languages of Asia besides English.) I did not even remotely find the author racist. Do people in the US not know what racist means anymore?
Generally if you have a background in the history of Martial arts (or Tai chi) in Asia you would know there is a mysticism behind it. Martial arts (and tai chi) aren’t about protection they’re about connecting with your inner self. Therefore mystifying a martial arts master isn’t racism it’s quite accurate. You need to remember while we all put a negative mark on stereotypes they all have some basis of truth to them whether we want to acknowledge it or not.
Also to follow up with the use of oriental- it’s really not seen as offensive anywhere except to my knowledge- in the US. If someone who is Chinese is going to have a racial slur spit at them the chances of it being ‘oriental’ is zero to none because it’s not a racial slur. It literally translates as ‘from the orient’. I have never met a single person in my travels who considers oriental offensive, and I literally study cultures for a living. I’ve spent months to years in different countries and Oriental has never been a relevant or offensive discussion. America has so many race issues these days and luckily they don’t touch my nation or those I frequent because we’d really confused by what we’re supposed to be offended by. I’m more offended by the lack of clean drinking water in the slums I study than I am about the use of the word orient."
I told all of this to mother, who responded much as one might expect:
Mother: I think you should stay off the internet.
Me: Yeah, well, I got sucked down a rabbit hole...
Mother: And got tempted to respond -
Me: I did not respond. It was midnight. And - the thread was to a review done in 2016. It wasn't possible to respond any longer - it was a 2016 thread.
Mother: good. After all it's a historical romance novel - no one remembers these things or takes them remotely seriously. We read them for the same reason we might eat cotton candy, ice cream or chocolate. (Or play a video game.)
She's not wrong. The internet...well...is well the internet.
Those are two hours I won't get back any time soon.
I may have to ditch Smart Bitches - but alas, they alert me to cool sales. I got Slaughter House 5 on sale because of them, also a few Kingfisher books. I just tend to ignore their recommendations and reviews. Mainly because, I don't share their taste (they tend to prefer contemporary romance and it irritates me or really poorly written books by trade publishers).
I don't remember any of the plots of the romance novels I read. It's kind of the point of them? Pleasure reading. Something to pass the time on trains? A quick read. Enjoyable. Fun. Requires little attention, riles up emotions, not thoughts. Cotton candy for the mind. People who don't like to read for pleasure don't get it, and those who feel the need to critically analyze everything they read or watch, don't either. Despite what you may or may not think? I do not feel the need to critically analyze everything. I like to take breaks, and just enjoy fun characters.
2. Finished The Benevolent Society of Ill-Mannered Ladies by Alison Goodman. Per the afterward - the author apparently utilized two of the chapters from her book for her doctorate thesis. If I were to guess? I'd say it was the last two chapters. The first one was very tropey bordering on cliche. The second and third were about human trafficking and the horrible conditions in private asylums in the Regency Period.
The book was rec'd by a college pal who doesn't tend to read historical romance novels. Isn't really into character so much as plot and historical accuracy. (She's a nit-picker.) And is more into contemporary or mystery. So that alone should tell you all you need to know about the book?
She rec'd it to me because the lead character made her think of me, and she loved the book.
I...liked it? It was slow in places. And the writer was clearly more interested in detailing the results of her research than building the characters relationships or the characters? I loved the main character - who I felt was for the most part, well-developed, different, and relatable. It's rare to find a tall woman in a historical romance novel (the average woman is 5'4). And rarer style to find one who is single and forty-two years of age. Who has never been married. Or been with a man per se, yet is heterosexual. That's rare. Usually if they are above the age of twenty-six, they've been married and widowed, or ruined or something.
It doesn't resolve itself at the end. Oh, the caper is resolved. The romance is not. The hero is still at large, the heroine is still pining for him and trying to figure out how to get him off, and that's about that.
So no HEA, not there won't be one, if the writer ever decides to write a sequel. That's kind of rare for an historical romance novel. I think this is more a historical woman's fiction than romance, even though there is a romance in it - it's not the central focus of the novel - the capers are, and the research.
You can always tell an academic posing as a fictional novelist - they are more interested in telling you the history than well, the story? Look at all the things I found out, don't you want me to regale you with them in all their gory details! (ME: not really. I know enough horrible things thank you very much. I do not need to add yours to the bunch. Can I have more fun banter and story instead? Because if I wanted to know all of this - I could find it easily enough on my own for free no less.)
When it comes to historical romances? I actually prefer less historical accuracy and more romance. If I wanted historical accuracy, I wouldn't be reading a historical romance novel. They are known for a lot of things, but not necessarily historical accuracy.
The story is historically accurate - no problems there. Possibly too historically accurate? If that's possible?
It has three capers or cases the heroine has to solve - 1) rescue a woman from her husband who is attempting to kill her for not being able to bear his child, 2)rescue a few children, orphans and non-orphans from a brothel and trafficking them, 3) rescue the hero's sister and various women from an insane asylum, where the hero's brother committed her for being a lesbian. All three are accomplished in record time, but it is grueling. All the more so, because we're told by the author that this actually happened to people, and they weren't always or necessarily save. So trigger warning there.
First person limited narrator. And we get the breast removal surgery that was done to Fanny Burney - the name is changed to a Madam DeHerblay in the novel. But it is the same surgery and same details. I skimmed, it's brutal. Actually I did a lot of skimming in this book - the descriptions are not for the faint of heart. So another trigger warning?
I'd say it swings towards hyper-realism. The men are for the most part, difficult, except for three of them, possibly four (if you include the dead). And it delves into the difficulties of people of color, the working folks, and women during this time period. If anything I'd say it's more of a historical "feminist" novel than a romance. The writer takes no prisoners with her descriptions - which are brutal and gory in places. I skimmed over a lot of it. Because I didn't want that in my head. Also there's a heavy feminist slant to the text. The writer is Australian and a historian, who was writing her thesis for her doctorate at the same time she was writing this novel. (Honestly she's either independently wealthy or has a wealthy husband - because she also has a collection of 19th century clothing from that period, fencing materials, space, and time to get a doctoral degree while writing historical romance and fantasy novels. Most people don't make a ton of money as a novelist - folks, you do more often than not, require a second income from somewhere.)
3. Also finished Ancillary Justice by Anne Leckie - this was via audible or an audio book. I couldn't get into it on E-book, but audible worked for me. The narrator is amazing, she manages to do ten different voices, plus songs. I was impressed.
It's a hard sci-fi space opera book, emphasis on hard sci-fi. The point of view or protagonist is an ancillary of a spaceship, the Justice of Toren.
Breq is the name she goes by. She was destroyed by the ruler of the realm, and is seeking justice for her destroyed ancillary parts, and her friends on board the ship. She's AI or a piece of equipment - a human body turned into a part of a ship or ancillary part.
The story is told in the present, and via flashbacks to events that happened on board Justice of Toren over nineteen years ago. More engrossing than I thought it would be. Once I got past all the gender pronouns being she - because the Ancillary basically sees everyone as she or female, and can't tell the difference - it worked. It works better in audio - because the narrator was good at distinguishing the voices, so I could ignore the pronouns. I'm not sure why the writer went with she and not they, I'd have gone with they for the most part with an Ancillary, but I guess it's the traditional view that ships are given a female gender, and likewise would assume everyone else was female.
It's interesting in that the villain is rather complicated, as is the Ancillary's desire for justice. And it deals with the view - do the ends ever justify the means? The idea that to save the world - or the universe, you kill everyone who gets in your way of creating that ideal universe or vision? Is this justified? (What's disturbing to me is this theme keeps popping up in various stories I've read or seen in various media. It's most likely just a coincidence, but disturbing nonetheless. I saw it in Fall Out today as well. Everyone wants to save the world - they just disagree on how, and some seem to think that as long as they achieve their goal, whatever they do to get there is justified.)
And..
4) Finished Uncanny X-men 700 or X-men 35 which was 88 pages. That was a great read. Had similar themes to Ancillary Justice (again disturbing that), but overall uplifting. I rather enjoyed the conclusion to the Kraokan age arc, and am enjoying the few pages setting up the From the Ashes Arc. There's a special bit with Nightcrawler, Rogue and their two mom's (Mystique and Destiny) - which has the creator of the characters delve into their family issues revealing his thoughts about their family dating back to the 1980s and 90s. Marvel was always a bit more liberal and progressive than the other comic book institutions. Also more character focused. (Just stay clear of the online comic book fandom - they are frightening.)
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 05:26 am (UTC)But this isn't a "ship thing". It's the entire culture, and we're told in other books that people in other cultures who speak other languages habitually translate their third-person pronoun as "she".
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 01:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 01:27 pm (UTC)Here's a relevant quote from the start of the book:
"She was probably male, to judge from the angular mazelike patterns quilting her shirt. I wasn't entirely certain. It wouldn't have mattered, if I had been in Radch space. Radchaai don't care much about gender, and the language they speak - my own first language - doesn't mark gender in any way."
Breq is Radchaai (sorta). She has a Radchaai worldview in this regard. She doesn't have a gender, rather than having a female gender.
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 01:44 pm (UTC)"She" is a gendered pronoun. "They" is not a gendered pronoun. So, why is the protagonist using the "gendered" pronoun "she" if Radchai don't care much about gender and the language they speak - my own first language - doesn't mark gender in any way?
That's what I was trying to state above? But did it poorly.
This may either be a critical error in the novel or a satirical point being made by the author. From what you're stating above - I think the author may be trying to make a satirical point - by stating that "she" is a non-gendered pronoun. (This explains some of the controversy around the book?)
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 01:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 01:59 pm (UTC)They, us, we, ours, you, yours - are not gendered pronouns.
It matters for two reasons?
1. how the language works - when we refer to a female dog, we will state she. Note that unlike French, we can't do it by putting an "e" on the end of the word. And it's been so long since I've taken French that I can't remember the word for dog.
2. clarity - the purpose of language is to communicate.
What if the writer was using only "he" pronouns throughout the novel instead of "she" - would you still see it as non-gendered, would others? You may, but not everyone would.
Keep in mind people process and think differently from one another, but we've all been trained from school to view personal pronouns as gendered or non-gendered.
He = male
She = female
They = either plural or non-gendered
If gender doesn't matter? Use a non-gendered pronoun such as they. If gender does matter use a gendered one such as she/he. It's not complicated.
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 02:11 pm (UTC)how the language works - when we refer to a female dog, we will state she.
Maybe. Or maybe I'd say "it". Or maybe I'd say "he", because lots of people only say "he" when referring to dogs, male or female.
2. clarity - the purpose of language is to communicate.
Sure - but what difference does it make when it's arbitrary and the convention is explained early in the book?
What if the writer was using only "he" pronouns throughout the novel instead of "she" - would you still see it as non-gendered, would others? You may, but not everyone would.
You mean like in The Culture series by Iain Banks?
If gender doesn't matter? Use a non-gendered pronoun such as they. If gender does matter use a gendered one such as she/he. It's not complicated.
Well, that's how you can write your book, but that's not how she wrote this book. Other Future Cultures have other ways of handing out pronouns, they're addressed in later books. (Provenance is still the best book of the series.)
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 03:08 pm (UTC)Goodbye.
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 01:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 01:51 pm (UTC)I'm trying not to argue with folks as well. The difficulty is we often misread or misconstrue what the other person has written. The internet unlike letter writing, allows for an instantaneous response. While with letters, we could spend days ruminating over the item that we are responding to, and our response to it.
I've also noticed a lot of comments to posts are to correct or to argue. I'm trying to veer away from that. If I don't agree - I scroll on by now. This morning I saw a post on a FB fanboard that I didn't like - my fingers shook so much that I couldn't type, I tried twice more and finally decided that my body was kindly telling me not to do that.
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 01:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 02:09 pm (UTC)I have an essential tremor - that has been medically diagnosed. I take medication for it. It's genetic. It gets worse when I get really upset. Nervous. Have coffee.
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 02:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 12:09 pm (UTC)I hope that, as an academic and yet a writer of fiction, while I strive for historical accuracy I do not let it clog up the story.
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 01:37 pm (UTC)I have no idea - I've not read your books? So I wouldn't take it personally? I'm assuming you don't write in the same style as you do in your online posts? And I'm guessing your novels aren't like the ones I've read which irritate me in this manner?
This is also highly subjective? We all think differently? And some people can write in various writing styles, others prefer just one. I write differently at work than I do here for example.
And, it is more than possible that you and others prefer Dorothy Dunnet's writing style over James Joyce, or Henry Miller's over William Gibson. And love Georgette Heyer's style - which gives me a headache.
no subject
Date: 2024-06-09 02:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-06-10 09:56 pm (UTC)I almost never read the reviews at SBTB either. I disagree with so many of the opinions there - it's like a microcosm of Tumblr's worst tendencies from 2014.
I recently read that Goodman novel and thought it was fun. Although yes, a bit too heavy-handed for the "look at this interesting historical information!" element. I'd like a sequel, given that the characters were enjoyable and the story elements worked for me.
no subject
Date: 2024-06-11 02:55 am (UTC)I did love the one commentator who kind of shut them all down - with their statement "I've read through all of this, and I think Y'all are insane." LOL!
It's when I realized that I needed to get off the internet. People were driving me crazy.
You're reaction to the Goodman Novel sounds similar to my friend's. The Goodman novel - I found a bit frustrating - in that I loved the characters and the adventure element, but the historical information was a touch heavy handed for me. Also I need a sequel to that one and I don't think we'll get one. My friend who rec'd it to me - loved it more than I did. But we think differently, and I honestly think she loves that kind of writing style, and heavy-handness, when it kind of frustrates me.