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shadowkatSo got curious and finally decided to listen to Council of Geeks youtube video analysis of the Tortoise Media reporting on Gaiman allegations
This is a surprisingly decent dissemination and critique of an insanely sloppy journalistic presentation about a topic that deserved so much better. Surprisingly, because the commentator's youtube channel doesn't come across at first glance as remotely reliable. But, they are more reliable than the media outlet. Shame on you, Tortoise Media. If the women don't get justice - blame Tortoise Media, who had the story fall into their lap and handled it abysmally. [ Note: to date no real charges have been filed and it is not in the justice system or the courts, outside of the court of public opinion which doesn't quite count? Although it can disseminate an author's career.]
The commentator basically rips into both Gaiman (who he liked and was a fan was) and Tortoise Media. I found myself agreeing with them. Everything this person says tracks with what I know about journalistic integrity, BDSM, sexual power dynamics, and legal and moral repercussions of it.
And they do a good job of delineating what consent means. At any rate, I liked their analysis and it would be mine.
Warning? It's long and it does go into some gory details.
I really like their end point: "Can I engage Gaiman's work? I don't know. Do I believe this? I don't know. Because I don't trust this outlet!"
I actually agree with pretty much everything this commentator states. They do a good job of articulating my own views on it.
[I've been following Palmer on Substack and Patreon for free (I refuse to pay for this stuff) - and between the lines, she's let drop various bits that lead me to believe that most of it probably is true? Also how Gaiman's dealt with it - kind of lends credence to it - which is dead silence and pulling out of various projects, including Sandman and Good Omens.]
The commentator has a second podcast - Additional Allegations - this goes into detail on various bits left over from the last podcast. I stopped listening to it half-way through, it was giving me a headache.
1. Gaiman isn't Harvey Weinstein or even Whedon for that matter, he doesn't have that much power.
2. Gaiman has cancelled a lot of tours and appearances. And backed off social media completely.
3. Unfortunately, it hasn't been picked up by anyone else - because they can't get the information. The folks who came forward didn't want to talk to anyone else.
4. Tortoise Media's journalists are actually "good investigators", but their reporting has a lot to be desired. Reporting/Presentation is very important. [It's kind of like doing research but being incapable of writing it in a convincing and coherent manner. You can be fantastic at research, but if you can't write or present it in a convincing and clear manner - no one cares. I've seen jury trials turn on presentation of evidence alone.]
5. The claim that Gaiman did it with 14 hasn't really been verified. It only comes from Scarlett - and it's hearsay, because she says "Amanda Palmer said she was the 14th person who came to her." That's hearsay.
You can't prove Palmer said that.
I know from an article I read way back in 2020, that Palmer and Gaiman shared a dark sex fetish, which Palmer grew weary of, and they had an open relationship due to that.
6. None of this is in the courts right now. It's being tried in the "court of public opinion" only. There are no charges filed, no police action, none of that. All we have is the podcasts by Tortoise and their investigation into it. That's it. The only police action was in New Zealand in 2022 and they said there wasn't enough evidence to go any further with it. (Keep in mind everyone is back in the UK, US, and not in NZ now.)
7. People apparently came forward to defend the male reporter and his work, but interestingly enough did not try to defend Rachel Johnson.
Again, I agree with this commentator's dissection of this and the problematic nature of the presentation, facts, etc. Problems with presentation don't negate facts, but it does cause issues. Also, the lack of a clear representation of Gaiman's side from Gaiman and Palmer, to the degree she was involved (which was minimal - you can't really blame her for his actions, when they were separated at the time, living in separate houses, and she was on tour) - does tend to make the allegations...less viable. On the other hand, the silence from that sector, and some off hand comments Palmer has made in her blog - tend to make me think it happened, it's just they may not have viewed it as non-consensual? I really don't know, it's convoluted.
Apparently with the new allegations - Tortoise is still doing a horrific job of presenting the stories. Sigh. They've not improved. The women went to them because Tortoise dropped the story apparently. But the newest allegations come from a woman who gives her full name. The previous didn't.
Which is interesting. There's a lot of filler in it. And a heavy emphasis on NDA's. The NDA's are the one thing that has concrete evidence on them.
The latest one - isn't in her twenties and the same age as Gaiman. Which comes across as more opportunistic than predatory. Anyhow, make of it what you will. It does make it hard for me to continue reading Gaiman's works, although I can't say I was that much of a fan to begin with and had more less stopped anyhow.
For those who are fans of certain works...here's the status according to our old buddy the internet (which isn't as reliable as I'd like but what can we do?):
Good Omens S3 in Jeopardy, etc
As of three days ago:
"At this time, Amazon has not made a definitive statement on whether Good Omens could be cancelled rather than proceed with more. However, signs of change might be afoot. According to Page Six, Gaiman is usually a “mainstay” at Jeff Bezos’ “top secret Campfire literary retreat” but will not attend this year for unknown reasons, and as Deadline reports, “Production has been paused on the third and final season of fantasy drama Good Omens, the Neil Gaiman drama for Amazon that’s shooting in Scotland” with (also reported) “discussions about possible production changes” taking place.
Subsequently, Deadline reported that Gaiman “offered to step back”:
Neil Gaiman is understood to have offered to step back from the third and final season of Amazon Prime Video‘s fantasy drama Good Omens… Now, we understand that Gaiman has made an offer to Amazon and producers to take a back seat on the latest season so that it can continue amid crisis talks over the Terry Pratchett adaptation’s future. Deadline understands Gaiman’s offer is not an admission of wrongdoing following a podcast from Tortoise Media that chronicled accounts of two women, with whom he was in consensual relationships, who accused him of sexual assault. Another two have since come forward. Gaiman’s position is that he denies the allegations and is said to be disturbed by them.
Exactly what “stepping back” would entail, if it happens, remains a mystery for now, but the resulting changes could be substantial. Gaiman is not only the Good Omens showrunner and series creator but also a scriptwriter in adapting his jointly penned book with Terry Pratchett. So, this would not be a simple extraction if Amazon decides to proceed without Gaiman’s involvement on the final season of the earth-bound affairs of angelic Aziraphale (Martin Sheen) and the devilish Crowley (David Tennant). Nor has Netflix’s currently running Geeked Week revealed more about The Sandman‘s return date."
And this article Sandman First Look etc.. states that while NETFLIX's Sandman S2 is moving apace for a 2025 release date, Gaiman is conspicuously absent from the marketing and production. (He was front and center previously). Meanwhile Good Omens S3 is put on indefinite pause. And the Graveyard Book has been suspended by Disney (it was a children's book adaptation so that is hardly surprising, also, Disney). Dead Boy Detectives was cancelled - which I honestly think had zip to do with Gaiman, but who knows really?
I'm ambivalent about all of them. I watched Sandman, Good Omens and Dead Boy, but I can't say I was in love with any of them. Or feel the need to rewatch - actually I won't re-watch. Dead Boy and Sandman had some disturbing visuals that I'd prefer not to see again.
[I disabled comments, because whenever I post on this topic, I get into fights with people. And no offense? But I'd rather not. I'm just reporting on what I saw on the internet. I honestly don't know what I feel about it.]
This is a surprisingly decent dissemination and critique of an insanely sloppy journalistic presentation about a topic that deserved so much better. Surprisingly, because the commentator's youtube channel doesn't come across at first glance as remotely reliable. But, they are more reliable than the media outlet. Shame on you, Tortoise Media. If the women don't get justice - blame Tortoise Media, who had the story fall into their lap and handled it abysmally. [ Note: to date no real charges have been filed and it is not in the justice system or the courts, outside of the court of public opinion which doesn't quite count? Although it can disseminate an author's career.]
The commentator basically rips into both Gaiman (who he liked and was a fan was) and Tortoise Media. I found myself agreeing with them. Everything this person says tracks with what I know about journalistic integrity, BDSM, sexual power dynamics, and legal and moral repercussions of it.
And they do a good job of delineating what consent means. At any rate, I liked their analysis and it would be mine.
Warning? It's long and it does go into some gory details.
I really like their end point: "Can I engage Gaiman's work? I don't know. Do I believe this? I don't know. Because I don't trust this outlet!"
I actually agree with pretty much everything this commentator states. They do a good job of articulating my own views on it.
[I've been following Palmer on Substack and Patreon for free (I refuse to pay for this stuff) - and between the lines, she's let drop various bits that lead me to believe that most of it probably is true? Also how Gaiman's dealt with it - kind of lends credence to it - which is dead silence and pulling out of various projects, including Sandman and Good Omens.]
The commentator has a second podcast - Additional Allegations - this goes into detail on various bits left over from the last podcast. I stopped listening to it half-way through, it was giving me a headache.
1. Gaiman isn't Harvey Weinstein or even Whedon for that matter, he doesn't have that much power.
2. Gaiman has cancelled a lot of tours and appearances. And backed off social media completely.
3. Unfortunately, it hasn't been picked up by anyone else - because they can't get the information. The folks who came forward didn't want to talk to anyone else.
4. Tortoise Media's journalists are actually "good investigators", but their reporting has a lot to be desired. Reporting/Presentation is very important. [It's kind of like doing research but being incapable of writing it in a convincing and coherent manner. You can be fantastic at research, but if you can't write or present it in a convincing and clear manner - no one cares. I've seen jury trials turn on presentation of evidence alone.]
5. The claim that Gaiman did it with 14 hasn't really been verified. It only comes from Scarlett - and it's hearsay, because she says "Amanda Palmer said she was the 14th person who came to her." That's hearsay.
You can't prove Palmer said that.
I know from an article I read way back in 2020, that Palmer and Gaiman shared a dark sex fetish, which Palmer grew weary of, and they had an open relationship due to that.
6. None of this is in the courts right now. It's being tried in the "court of public opinion" only. There are no charges filed, no police action, none of that. All we have is the podcasts by Tortoise and their investigation into it. That's it. The only police action was in New Zealand in 2022 and they said there wasn't enough evidence to go any further with it. (Keep in mind everyone is back in the UK, US, and not in NZ now.)
7. People apparently came forward to defend the male reporter and his work, but interestingly enough did not try to defend Rachel Johnson.
Again, I agree with this commentator's dissection of this and the problematic nature of the presentation, facts, etc. Problems with presentation don't negate facts, but it does cause issues. Also, the lack of a clear representation of Gaiman's side from Gaiman and Palmer, to the degree she was involved (which was minimal - you can't really blame her for his actions, when they were separated at the time, living in separate houses, and she was on tour) - does tend to make the allegations...less viable. On the other hand, the silence from that sector, and some off hand comments Palmer has made in her blog - tend to make me think it happened, it's just they may not have viewed it as non-consensual? I really don't know, it's convoluted.
Apparently with the new allegations - Tortoise is still doing a horrific job of presenting the stories. Sigh. They've not improved. The women went to them because Tortoise dropped the story apparently. But the newest allegations come from a woman who gives her full name. The previous didn't.
Which is interesting. There's a lot of filler in it. And a heavy emphasis on NDA's. The NDA's are the one thing that has concrete evidence on them.
The latest one - isn't in her twenties and the same age as Gaiman. Which comes across as more opportunistic than predatory. Anyhow, make of it what you will. It does make it hard for me to continue reading Gaiman's works, although I can't say I was that much of a fan to begin with and had more less stopped anyhow.
For those who are fans of certain works...here's the status according to our old buddy the internet (which isn't as reliable as I'd like but what can we do?):
Good Omens S3 in Jeopardy, etc
As of three days ago:
"At this time, Amazon has not made a definitive statement on whether Good Omens could be cancelled rather than proceed with more. However, signs of change might be afoot. According to Page Six, Gaiman is usually a “mainstay” at Jeff Bezos’ “top secret Campfire literary retreat” but will not attend this year for unknown reasons, and as Deadline reports, “Production has been paused on the third and final season of fantasy drama Good Omens, the Neil Gaiman drama for Amazon that’s shooting in Scotland” with (also reported) “discussions about possible production changes” taking place.
Subsequently, Deadline reported that Gaiman “offered to step back”:
Neil Gaiman is understood to have offered to step back from the third and final season of Amazon Prime Video‘s fantasy drama Good Omens… Now, we understand that Gaiman has made an offer to Amazon and producers to take a back seat on the latest season so that it can continue amid crisis talks over the Terry Pratchett adaptation’s future. Deadline understands Gaiman’s offer is not an admission of wrongdoing following a podcast from Tortoise Media that chronicled accounts of two women, with whom he was in consensual relationships, who accused him of sexual assault. Another two have since come forward. Gaiman’s position is that he denies the allegations and is said to be disturbed by them.
Exactly what “stepping back” would entail, if it happens, remains a mystery for now, but the resulting changes could be substantial. Gaiman is not only the Good Omens showrunner and series creator but also a scriptwriter in adapting his jointly penned book with Terry Pratchett. So, this would not be a simple extraction if Amazon decides to proceed without Gaiman’s involvement on the final season of the earth-bound affairs of angelic Aziraphale (Martin Sheen) and the devilish Crowley (David Tennant). Nor has Netflix’s currently running Geeked Week revealed more about The Sandman‘s return date."
And this article Sandman First Look etc.. states that while NETFLIX's Sandman S2 is moving apace for a 2025 release date, Gaiman is conspicuously absent from the marketing and production. (He was front and center previously). Meanwhile Good Omens S3 is put on indefinite pause. And the Graveyard Book has been suspended by Disney (it was a children's book adaptation so that is hardly surprising, also, Disney). Dead Boy Detectives was cancelled - which I honestly think had zip to do with Gaiman, but who knows really?
I'm ambivalent about all of them. I watched Sandman, Good Omens and Dead Boy, but I can't say I was in love with any of them. Or feel the need to rewatch - actually I won't re-watch. Dead Boy and Sandman had some disturbing visuals that I'd prefer not to see again.
[I disabled comments, because whenever I post on this topic, I get into fights with people. And no offense? But I'd rather not. I'm just reporting on what I saw on the internet. I honestly don't know what I feel about it.]