If my laugh offends thee rip it out...(assuming of course such a thing is even possible)

[shadowkat]

[As an aside it is much easier to apply for unemployement insurance than I thought. You just need a 'record of unemployement' from your previous employer. Also it's a weekly thing and you do it online not in person. Yes, you need to attend a monthly 're-employment' meeting. But that's about it. Plus if I took a temp job for six months, was out of work again at the end of it, I could still get unemployment for the period I'm out of work - I don't in short lose my claim. Good to know. Thought I'd pass it on to rest of you, assuming of course all the states in the US of A are alike in this.]

IF MY LAUGH OFFENDS THEE..... or musings on how to handle being offended.

Been thinking about this quite a bit lately...partly due to what I read at the writercon site and in several lj's on my flist regarding the situation, but also due to experiences in my own life. Past and present.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen what can best be entitled a kerfuffle, at worste a flame war due to something someone said or something someone saw, witnessed, or overheard that was "OFFENSIVE" to them.

More often than not - they will state in their post or the discussion, this is OFFENSIVE to me.
And at work, I've heard people make comments about human rights that they felt should be curtailed because they are offensive to them.

My first response is: "So what? Why should I care that it is offensive to you? Why should that matter? Why do I give a rat's ass that this offends you?" (This is usually my reaction if it is something I liked, enjoyed, feel strongly about, or want. My thought process is - why should your desires/values/well-being came before mine? Why do I need to bow to you? And this is coupled by an overwhelming desire to take something away from this person, some essential right, something they enjoy and love with the explaination - 'I'm sorry it offended me, so you can't have it.')

That is my first response, which being human is invariably an emotional one.
(And why it is wise when reading posts on the internet, to jump off for a few hours and chill before attempting to respond, assuming you wish to respond at all. It is also wise, when someone tells you face to face, to take a breath, and not go with that initial emotional response that more often than not gets you into trouble (okay, me into trouble).)

When I think about it - I realize the incredible number of things that offend me. That I put up with on a daily basis. And it does not come close to the number of things that offend someone who is classified as a societial 'minority' based on skin color, weight, religion, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, etc. It's hard to avoid some of them. And at times, it can feel as if I'm wandering about my life with blinders on - in the attempt to ignore them. It can't offend you - if you refuse to acknowledge or look at it, right?

My rules regarding things that "offend" me are simple:
1) Can I avoid it?
2)Would doing away with it hurt someone else in a way that hurts us all far more than just doing away with the offensive object?
3) By the same token, would plucking out the offensive thing - hurt someone else in a horrible way, deprive them of their rights, their liberty, their mental and emotional happiness - just to give me peace of mind or make me comfortable?
4) Would removing the offensive thing take something way that is far more important and vital?
5)Again, can I avoid, close my eyes, not focus on it? Does it really, if I'm honest with myself affect my life in a direct way?

All of which go towards answering that question - "So what if it offends me? Why should you care?"

Flipping it on the other side, or rather answering the question I posed as my first response - what if something I do offends you? Why should I care?

I can think of five reasons off the top of my head, which I won't bore you with, since they are sort of obvious. And, it really depends on what you plan on doing about it, doesn't it?

Will you stop being my friend? Will you blast me for it? Will you start a campaign to ensure that if I do it again, I'm thrown in prison?
(All actions that have a heck of lot to do with the severity of the offense. Or how badly this act, art, creation, post, what have you - has offended you.)
It also invariably depends on how much power you have.

Online - the people with power rule the roost. If you say something that offends the person who owns the posting board you are on, you will most likely get booted - unless of course you have made quite a few friends on that board whom the owner cares about and knows they'll piss off/offend by booting you off. Safety in numbers. And majority rules. Like it or not. If, however, you have pissed off the people on the board and offended them - you may find yourself booted by the owner or warned. On lj - if you piss off the best friend of the lj owner you are posting on - watch out. Or say you offend the owner by a response?

If you can persuade others that the act, work, what-have-you is offensive and hurts them as much as it hurts you and that they should care that it hurts you - then you got power to do something about it. If, however, your attempt in persuading them only serves to offend them, ie - what you find offensive or the fact you find it offensive - offends someone else even more, to the extent that any actions you may take could deprive them of it result in the deprivation of an important and necessary right or enjoyable activity - expect to get kicked. Or online, flamed.

It's common sense really. Was thinking on it in the shower this morning.

A perfect example is a conversation I had with a pal of mine several years back. She told me that she could not stand my laugh during a movie. That my laugh offended her. Okay. How did I reacte to this? I basically told her she had a choice - she could either put up with it the same way I put up with all her idiosyncrasies that make me nuts, or we aren't friends. To emphasize this point, I cut contact. Completely. For two months. Two months later - she came back, deeply apologetic, embarrassed, and filled with remorse. "I'm so sorry. You were completely right." It did take a long time for us to see a movie together again. Okay, maybe that's not such a perfect example.

Another one - is the whole same-sex marriage controversy.

A co-worker told me a year or so ago that she found the idea of same-sex marriage offensive. She did not mind homosexuals having relationships, but did not see why they should get married. The co-worker is Catholic. Raised in the Catholic church with a strict Catholic upbringing. To the co-worker - marriage is a sacrament, that takes place in a church, with a priest. It is sacred. And it is done with the intent to have children. A same-sex marriage taking place in a church, from her point of view, is akin to spitting on that sacrament, or making fun of it. Making it absurd.

This is not a belief I agree with and is amongst the many reasons I have not been inside a Catholic Church in two years, even though I was raised Catholic. Because that exclusion is evidence that the title "Catholic" which means universial is not only ironic but a bit of a joke. That's how I feel about it. It is my opinion.

The problem is - much like my friend (who has a habit of sighing through films to my utmost annoyance) and me (my laughter) - you have to come to a compromise, because let's face it We have to live with people who do not share our views and who have traits that make us crazy. And unless those views/traits infringe on our personal welfare, we need to learn how to tolerate what offends us.

The co-worker can ignore same-sex marriages that happen in churches. She does not need to read about them. She can refuse to attend them. No one is pushing them in her face. But the person who loves and wishes to marry someone of the same sex - their rights are diminished if they are told they can't get married. They are excluded. Left out in the cold - in regards to many legal protections and rights that are available to people who do get married - such as death benefits, power of attorney, insurance, etc. Of the two - it is far easier for my co-worker to change her mind, to tolerate the offense - than it is for the two people not to get married just because it offends her.
Same deal with me and my friend - it is easier for my friend to put up with my squeaky laughter than for me to stop laughing.

I think when we talk about things that offend or even annoy us, the question is simple? Is it easier to avoid or tolerate the offense than to attempt to destroy or pluck it out by its roots? What is gained and what is lost either way?

Comments

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I really appreciate your comments on gay marriage, I don't think people realize how difficult it is for unmarried but committed couples to visit each other at the hospital during times of serious illness, to have the legal rights of family, and all the other legalities which help to cement a relationship into something lasting. This is not a trivial matter to those who are denied these rights. The 'sacrament' of marriage is kind of a joke in a country where the divorce rate is over 50% and most of the children are being raised in single parent families.

[ladyhelix.livejournal.com]

My dad always used to say "Your rights end where my nose begins".

Gay marriage is another situation where this little saying fits so well. In both directions.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You know, it's funny, I didn't intend this post to be about same-sex marriage rights, that's just the example I came up with. It was actually more of a response to a lot of stuff I've seen lately online - like the post on writercon that half my flist is talking about, and the stuff in Pirates...a musing on that. So not sure why I picked that example? Maybe because the writercon post sublimly pushed that button? I think that's the reason. (Yes, as my dad says - I have a tendency to answer my own questions).

I've never really understood people's difficulty with homosexuality or sexual practices that differ from their own. Unless it directly hurts you or is pushed in your nose so to speak?
Why do you care? And to be honest - I don't want to watch anyone boinking in front of my nose - unless they are Buffy and Spike on the TV set, then not a problem. (grin) Everyone else? Get a room.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

[This wasn't meant to be a post on gay marriage - not sure how it went that route, just that was the example that came to mind when I was in the shower this morning - and possibly it was in the forefront due to what I've been reading (Kavalier and Clay and the infamous writercon post - which annoyed me for completely different reasons than the fanfic writers), so I started pondering - why do people have so much trouble with it? And I think it has a lot to do with religious views. Which like you state above are incredibly ironic. But I've found Christianity to be an ironic religion - this is a religion whose central precept is: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "I forgive the trespasses of others as I hope others will forgive my own." - IT's a religion in which a man gave his life to stop violence and judgement.
The practice of religion seems to be at times a direct contradiction of the intent. That's my struggle with it at any rate - that contradiction.]

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Oh of course I knew the post wasn't about Gay marriage...but I got side tracked on that topic (and really didn't have much to add about people trying to control ever being offended by anything, without realizing it is their people...not the problem of the person/thing offending them).

It does mystify me that when when so many Christians ask themselves 'what would Jesus do' that they decide he would be mean spirited, narrow minded, and judgmental. Not that I'm not judgmental, most people are, but we usually aren't also sanctimonious about it.

[ladyhelix.livejournal.com]

Amen sister!

Did you ever see DOGMA? Far from perfect.. but a personal favorite, and the very first DVD I ever owned (also the first gift the boys ever bought me with their own money - it wasn't on my Christmas list, but Jon knew I'd love it and Dan didn't disagree. Jon DOES have every movie Kevin Smith ever made.) How can you NOT love a movie that has George Carlin as a Cardinal?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah, good. Just was a little taken aback when both responses hit on that.

I agree. (Personally, I struggle with being 'self-righteous' - have a tendency to be a bit of a sainted-pit-bull if I'm not careful. )

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

LOL...yep, saw it. Does a nice send-up of Christianity. Felt it was a bit cluttered in places. But also very funny in places.

[ladyhelix.livejournal.com]

I found the central message of the movie (although I agree cluttered) very satisfying. And of course the boys love Kevin Smith.

The "Religiosity & Rules", and the "I'm right/you're wrong" so often get in the way of the "good stuff" associated with believing in a higher power.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well now I'm amazed you were able to understand ME! (obviously you did figure out what I was saying) I wrote that so late last night, and I wrote it so badly;
what I was trying to say is that 'when someone is offended it is their own PROBLEM (not people)' - this business of blaming others when one is offended (instead of realizing it is something within oneself) is like what leads to so many law suits in this country: "I'm hurt, it must be someone else's fault, who can I blame?!".

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah, I'm actually very good at figuring out what things mean. It comes from my tendency to confuse sounds - I had to find a way to compensate, so what I do is figure it out by the context. For example: I mishear the chorus of the theme to Flashdance. It's "Take your Passion", I hear "Take your Pant's off." So I analyze the sentence and figure out - okay, people doesn't work there, must be problem - that would make logical sense within the context of the rest of the paragraph.

I agree. There was this great self help book that Oprah pushed a while back called The Four Agreements - and while a great deal of it is smarmy new ageism, he makes some very good points. One is that people tend to project the things they dislike about themselves onto others. That someone's rejection of you, usually has zip to do with you and everything to do with them. You may remind them of someone who hurt them. That irritating laugh or your voice may sound like a teacher or a friend that they had a bad experience with and is long gone. Or it may be a failing something they hate about themselves that they see reflected back at them in you. People have a tendency to look at other people - and look for validation or acceptance of themselves. It's long been thought that most people who are homophobic - are dealing with fears that they themselves may be homosexual or are insecure about their own sexuality. (It's not always true, but often I've seen this played out.) And it is easier to blame someone else for one's problems than oneself. Lots of people do not like to take responsibility for their lives. They like scapegoats - it's how Hitler and other facist leaders came to power - locating a minority to exploit as a scapegoat for all the pains and ills of the society they are ruling. Convincing the crowd that hey, if we get rid of these folks, life will be hunky-dorey. (OF course this is a lie, but it's easier than facing the fact that there's no one to blame or it's your own fault.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed. It's religion I've often struggled with or rather man/woman interpretation of what the higher power or other or god is saying. My grandfather, now dead these past 20 years - who was raised Baptist but refused to go to church, used to argue with Jehova's Witnesses. He loved it when they came to his door - because he'd spend hours explaining how their interpretation did not necessarily work. It was not the one truth. Religion sometimes, I think, becomes more about the people doing the worshipping and how they wish the world to be and less to do with belief in a god or understanding a power beyond their comprehension. Religion often feels like a type of validation - look I'm right, see this bible tells me so, my world is validated. If I follow these rules, live by these dictates, I will end up in heaven and be deemed a good person. But what if the rules cause you to hurt others?

[ladyhelix.livejournal.com]

"But what if the rules cause you to hurt others?"

Most of the "organized violence" in the world (that does hurt others) is done in the name of "ORGANIZED RELIGION". This frustrates me so.

The Christian Science church actively supported the rights of other faiths/beliefs, and frowned on judging anything/anyone (judging wasn't OUR role). By the time we left the church (I was twelve), I had already spent years being taught to study, think, question, defend, and establish my own personal relationship with God (no middle man). We didn't even have a minister; congregation members took turns "reading" at Sunday morning worship.

This background renders me very un-concerned with what the Pope or the Mormon elders decide we should or shouldn't be doing "this week". It allows me to be as relaxed and flexible as I am humanly capable of being.

But what if I had been brought up in one of these more "patriarchal" religions? What if I hadn't been granted this early freedom to establish a personal theology, explore, and decide for myself? I could have been raised in one of these less flexible religions where I would have been taught to depend on someone OUTSIDE myself to decide what I believed, and I would have been told at a very granular level what was and wasn't right/wrong and true/false and I can imagine how it would be terribly important to me that everybody else - everywhere - follow these EXACT SAME RULES I was forced to - YIKES!!

If that ever happened - I'd probably lapse back into the "that's not fair"-ness of someone who doesn't make their own decisions, worried about whether or not everybody else had the same sneakers I did, the same lunch money, and the same bedtime. It wouldn't be pretty. I would NOT be at all "relaxed" in this situation. I would be shrill & obnoxious - you can count on it. (*Excuse me, I have to go thank my mother!!*)

Wow - can anyone ever RECOVER from that? I DO feel badly for them, HOWEVER.....

Those poor folks who DIDN'T get this gift I was bestowed (religious tolerance/acceptance/flexibility) do indeed need to QUIT legislating their interpretations of the Bible & morality on all the rest of us, cause I'm getting SERIOUSLY CRANKY, and UN-relaxed!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah, but not all CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST church's are like the one you went to - I went to one in Colorado Springs and had a friend in KC who went to one - these churchs were restrictive on certain issues - one was that people were not allowed to seek medical attention or the view, God heals us.
Which caused problems. Since children were not vaccinated for certain diseases.

What I've discovered is each church is well, as good or bad as the people in it. In college, I studied every Christian faith out there - or that I could find, hunting one that I could feel comfortable in. None worked for me. That is not meant as a criticism of those religions. Just that I didn't click with the set-up.

Here's a list: Christian Scientist (I think I may still have the Christian Scientist Bible somewhere)
Mormon (have that bible somewhere as well)
Congregationalist
Presbyterian (there's about five or six different varieties - this is more into sermons, less into mass)
Episcopalian (I love their church buildings - all stone, quiet, peaceful)
Lutheran (those two sects - one fundamentalist and strict, one liberal)
Eastern Orthodox
Quaker
Anglican (very similar to Episcopalin)
Unitarian (which sounds more like what you described above, actually it's even looser - I saw the banned film "Last Temptation of Christ" in the Unitarian Church when every other church in Colorado Springs banned it and forced the theaters not to show it. )
Jehova's Witness
Baptist (there's southern and northern baptist)
Evangelical Christian ( they tend to have over 100,000 in their congregations)
Catholic ( several varieties - some very strict with latin, some looser with group readings in homes and bible studies depends on the pastor.)

Then, bored with the Christian faith:
Judaism
Buddhism
Hindu
Zen
Wicca (not to be confused with witchcraft - which is a practice of magic not a religion)
Taoism
Druidism (not to be confused with Wicca, very different)
Voodu (not to be confused with hoodu, which is the practice of magic not religion)
Islam (a friend is really into this)

Have yet to find anything that clicks. And all of it, to be honest, have the same problems. People get self-righteous. They exclude others that don't fit with their views. They use religion to justify cruelity.

I don't think it is the fault of the religion itself, but of people. I think people like to feel good about themselves, but also have a desire to hurt anyone who threatens them and often use religion as a means of giving them permission. Have not found a religion that cannot be twisted to do that.

But that's not the reason I don't practice any religion. It's simply that none of them click with what I feel inside. Most religions appear to personalize god and I don't believe in a "personal" god or a god that answers prayers with specific acts or rewards our actions. I believe in something that is beyond us, that can guide us, that helps us find our way if we can listen. I don't know what or who it is, just that it is and it loves everything and knows everything and sees everything and doesn't interfer just guides. It does not tell us how to live our lives, but asks us to trust our hearts. Because anything else would interfer with free will. At least that's it generally, mostly?
I have to admit, I don't know. And my difficulty with most religions is they seem to think they do.

[ladyhelix.livejournal.com]

"I don't think it is the fault of the religion itself, but of people" - Agreed

"The Christian Science Church WAS restrictive" - Yes it certainly was for those of us inside it. But it also acknowledged openly the freedom for other people to have different faiths/beliefs to worship as they saw fit (It's surprising too me how many organized religions insist theirs is the ONLY way).

As children, my brothers and I always had our vaccinations, our yearly checkups, and my many concussions and wounds to be stitched were always delivered immediately to the ER (my mom with her BA in Biology, was a huge "moderating factor"). But at the same time - in the church - and in my own family I have witnessed TOO MANY mind-over-matter miracles to walk entirely away from what Mary Baker Eddy taught. I also think this is why I so quickly embrace the story you posted of the 90 year old man in the nursing home, for what is happiness - if not a state of wellness of the mind?

I think people vastly underestimate the power of the mind in healing - but the Church WAS FIRM "pick one". When my little brother was diagnosed with Cystic Fibrosis, my mother was not willing to make this "choice" for him, so we left the church and became "obedient to a different authority": The Cleveland Clinic. And there - amazingly - the miracles continued.

Leaving the church started my personal pilgrimage/exploration of other Christian religions, and like you, I have yet to find one that really "FITS". UNITY (http://www.unityonline.org/) has come the closest... though I do need to take a closer look a Buddhism. My mom says that my beliefs lean very heavily toward Judaism (she fancies herself knowledgeable - as one of the 6 women in her "we've met once a week for the last 20 years" bible study group is Jewish).

"I don't believe in a "personal" god or a god that answers prayers with specific acts or rewards our actions. I believe in something that is beyond us, that can guide us, that helps us find our way if we can listen. I don't know what or who it is, just that it is and it loves everything and knows everything and sees everything and doesn't interfere just guides. It does not tell us how to live our lives, but asks us to trust our hearts. "

You must promise me, that if you find this - you will CALL ME IMMEDIATELY!!

UNITY (http://www.unityonline.org/) was close to your above description - but several things caused me to scamper.

(1) The girl that my boys have on a pedestal sang in church one Sunday, and I learned her whole family attended the church (I avoid any place where the boys know people - lest my mood slip away from me).

(2) In addition, I was severely depressed the last time I was at UNITY (for 3 months), and when the minister started talking about the "God within me" - I recoiled with the "I'm not worthy!" response - and everything fell apart. When I'm low grade, I have no sense of self worth - so this was tearful & traumatic.

When I finally pulled out of it - the church was in the midst of their own "human uproar" (power struggle), and ended up splitting into two churches, with one of the ministers leaving town. I've chosen to let things "settle down" before attending one or the other, since whatever I do will viewed as choosing a side (*sigh*). But these things happen - in life and in churches. Because they're both full of people.

"I have to admit, I don't know. And my difficulty with most religions is they seem to think they do."

EXCELLENT!! Thanks S'kat! This has been great fun! Now I'm off to enroll in a comparative religions class!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Very good point about the Christian Scientist faith, which many people do not understand - they tend not to like to convert others to their faith (not as evangelical as some of the other Christian faiths) and aren't into impossing their views on others.

Catholicism has a nasty history of imposing it's faith on others. My late grandmother, who died 10 years ago, believed that if you weren't baptised in the Catholic church, you would not go to heaven. (Since my concept of heaven, if it exists is vastly different than her's, I always found this a tad silly.) And there are different factions - some believe in converting people, some strongly don't.

I remember when I studied the Christian Scientist religion for a comparative religions course in college - how they insisted that they did not use the idols that other religions did and were "better than" those religions. That may have just been that church's pastor. It was an interesting exploration - because I did it with an atheisist. We had to split into groups of two.
So here we had a former/on the fence Catholic (at that time I hadn't given up on the religion entirely and was experimenting), and an athesist. Both 19-20 years of age. I'm pretty sure we imposed our own prejudices on the religion we were studying. Heck - I picked the religion because I wanted to challenge those prejudices. In the class - we had a practicing Christian Scientist, who ironically was visiting the Catholic Church for her report. She argued with our findings, stating how we misinterpreted what was said and no, they did not believe that using a cross in church was idol worship and yes, they used them, and no there was no prohibition against seeing a doctor, it was merely a suggestion. Looking back on the experience, I realize how easy it is to superimpose one's own expectations, prejudices, and experiences onto something.

Religion is such a dicey topic. One of my uncles, also dead now, (yes - I keep referring to dead people in this discussion, don't I?) used to say that he never brought up religion or politics in polite conversation - it was certain to cause a fight. Not that we are of course, but I've seen it with other people. Religion is a bit like those "comfort books" - it's a place where you can feel safe, loved, cared for, comforted in times of pain. If you aren't getting those things - then it's not working. If it is providing those things - you may defend it to any detractors - particularly if you fear they are right or that the detraction will cost you what you have, because you need those feelings. I envy people who have found that in a religious practice with other people. I yearn for it, but have yet to locate it. For now, my religion/spirituality tends to remain a solitary experience, which may be the best I can hope for.

Will definitely let you know if I find anything that fits my own belief pattern.

Also enjoyed the discussion - thanks.