(no subject)

[shadowkat]

Hot day. Busy day. But not as head-ache inducing as yesterday. Mostly because I was able to get things done without chasing my tail. Okay, I exaggerate about it being hot, by Kansas City and California standards? It's relatively mild. Heck by Hilton Head and Florida standards it's mild.
We reached 85-89 degrees. Big whoop. That's about 26 degrees Celusis - I think. And there was a nice breeze. It was actually pleasant. In which case...forget the hot remark altogether.

I'm certain there's something else I should be doing at the moment...but my mind is a blank. Probably making dinner or working on my novel - now that I've figured out how to fix the bits that need fixing before I write a synopsis and send it out to publishers. The internet, particularly blogging, is a great procrastination tool.

Enjoyed aspects of Game of Thrones this week but once again was struck by what they left out of the series and what they left in. Which I won't go into.

What I liked?

* Ayra's scenes. Particularly how Surian showed that speed and fast reflexes serve you better than brute strength. Yet another metaphor regarding mental acumen over brute strength. Ayra, who is smaller, not as pretty, and not as mature as Sansa, manages to escape - using her wits. Sansa - who is a deluded romantic nitwit that has spent far too much time reading stories about knights and ladies or daydreaming about them for her own good. Although I did feel sorry for her here.

*Jon Snow and Samwell Tary's scenes. Samwell is amongst my favorite characters. And we start to get a little of the magical surrealism that exists in the novels - with the horrific Wights.
Osha also discusses them with Bran...who thinks of them as stories. Osha, the wildling woman from beyond the wall, states that his brother's army is marching in the wrong direction. The real enemy lies to the north, not to the South. And yes, Jon needs to learn how to control his temper.

*Charles Dance...is having fun as Tywin Lannister. And reminding me of how good an actor he truly is. His scene with Tyrion was just delicious. Almost as good as his scene with Jamie last week. Tyrion apparently isn't that pleased with the turn of events, even if they are in his favor (well sort of). I did like these lines:

Tywin: "Robb Stark will turn tail and run back to the North, unseasoned..."

Tyrion: Maybe. He came across as fairly belligerant when I last saw him. You'd like him.

*Actually any scene with Tyrion is fun. Peter Dinklage is clearly in heaven. This may be the best role he's had since The Station Agent. I particularly liked his by-play with Bronn.
Yes, well, if you find someone who wants to murder me, talk to me first, I'm likely to outbid them. Or I'm not really interested in your honor or friendship qualities, just your murderous ones.
Tyrion clearly has no illusions when it comes to Bronn.

*Varys and Ned...Varys informing Ned that he's been an idiot from the start. To give Varys credit - he did try to warn Ned. Granted he was a bit subtle about it, just like Little Finger was. With Ned, you need to be more than subtle. The man is too pig-headed to get a hint. Had a best friend when I was a kid, who whenever she wanted something and I was being annoyingly oblivious - would say repeatedly "hint, hint". Suffice it to say, short of saying "hint, hint" - I doubt Ned would have figured it out. Did feel sort of sorry for him though...Scean Bean looked so adorably belleaugered.

[Not a fan of the Dani scenes. Not only are they blatantly racist but they appear to be taken out of either a B movie fantasy flick, starring Arnold Schwazzernegger, circa 1980 or a Bodice Ripper fantasy romance novel featuring Fabio on the cover. I remember liking this better in the book - granted, the book I'm most likely thinking of is Book 3 - Storm of Swords - the Dofraki bit sort of disappears by then. So if you are hating it, too? No worries...it ends. If you love it? Go rent Conan the Barbarian.]



[As an completely esoteric and non-sequitor aside? This is how you know that you watched a certain tv series one too many times - when you read a writer's interview and think, no, you idiots, the line - "I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it" - wasn't from Fool for Love, nor was it written by Doug Petrie, it was from Lover's Walk by Dan Vebber, who was a hired gun.

Sigh. I'm not sure what that says about either the writers or me for that matter. Not sure I want to know. Hmm. Maybe in ten years, I won't even remember the line?]

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Ayra, who is smaller, not as pretty, and not as mature as Sansa, manages to escape - using her wits. Sansa - who is a deluded romantic nitwit that has spent far too much time reading stories about knights and ladies or daydreaming about them for her own good. Although I did feel sorry for her here.

I haven't read the books, bear in mind, but Arya manages to escape to what end? She ends up murdering a child (and I've seen her character referred to as "the little sociopath" so...). Sansa stays and manages to parlay on behalf of her father. I think Sansa was still using her wits and knowledge of social graces.

I'm probably one of the few people who's not a huge fan of Arya. Not that I'm not a fan, but most people seem to be largely in her corner, listing her as a favorite, and I haven't seen much to draw me in besides her bucking convention and wanting to do what she wants. At this point, she feels more like an archetype than a full-fledged character.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I noticed that too in the interview with Espenson. Weird. Incidentally, I think that both Whedon and Vebber have said that the final Lovers Walk script was pretty much all Whedon's (although The Zeppo's was mostly Vebber's).

[buffyannotater.livejournal.com]

I don't know how Whedon worked, but in Russell T. Davies' book, Davies said that he edited every Doctor Who script written by someone else to the point that most of them (other than Steven Moffat's scripts) were at least 80% written by him. He would retain the writer's ideas and often the gist of his or her dialogue but would change the actual words drastically. He even speaks about sometimes feeling slighted that some viewers would insult any episode his name was on and praise other ones, because he actually basically wrote every one. So I wouldn't be surprised if, at least during that period of Buffy, when Whedon still seemed to care, that he would have done similarly. The only original script vs Whedon rewrite I've seen was "Passion," and he improved it enormously and gave it all of its great lines. So I wouldn't be surprised if the love's bitch line, credited to Vebber, was actually Whedon's.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I actually can see Arya developing some sociopathic disorder, but I think if she does it's earned. There's a hell of a lot of trauma thrown at that girl in the course of the novels. I do worry that at the end she'll be majorly psychologically messed up.

*damn ipad's autocorrect. It makes it difficult to post. I miss my computer! Wah!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I've got to say that I hated the Dothraki plot in Book 1. I'm intrigued by Dany's plot by Book 3, but I really viscerally loathed the Dothraki in Book 1 (and, yeah found elements to feel to be treading a bit too closely to racist ground)

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Or you could just wait a year and watch the remake of Conan starring Jason Momoa.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I also find it interesting what they left in and out. They kicked Sansa's betrayal, which I think was a good choice. It was a bi pointless in the books anyway. What news that Ned hadn't spilled himself did Cersei get from her? That he really meant it?

And they left out the Tysha story. I guess they're waiting for a good moment to tell it, since it's so vital for Tyrion's characterisation. I just don't like the notion that he'll tell it to an exposition whore (which would likely be Shae in this case).

I pretty much loved all of the last episode. Syrio's last stand Arya's flight, Tyrion's arrival in the camp, Bronn's "you wouldn't know him...", Varys' visit (I'm currently rereading book 2 and it's such a contrast when Tyrion shows up in KL and just gets Varys).

I thought the Dothraki scenes were fine. Dany gets more interesting in the later books, but I think the first book and her growing up process are not negligible. It showed at the same time that Dany knows how to use authority, but at the same time that her castle right now is build on sand. The whole ruling through a man thing is never true power, it's much too fragile.

[shapinglight]

[As an completely esoteric and non-sequitor aside? This is how you know that you watched a certain tv series one too many times - when you read a writer's interview and think, no, you idiots, the line - "I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it" - wasn't from Fool for Love, nor was it written by Doug Petrie, it was from Lover's Walk by Dan Vebber, who was a hired gun.

Yeah, lot of people irritated by that.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Good to know I wasn't the only one.
The books bugged me as well. I cringed during that particular plot-arc in the books.

It really isn't until Book 3 that
I start to get interested in and like Dany. Prior to that point, the Dofraki/Dany plot arc is the classic racist fantasy trope - about the liberating white princess/prince and
the uncivilized barbaric natives (so common in Western Fantasy and Western genres.) Actually, I'm not sure if it ever quite drifts away from that trope completely, but it does become less blatantly racist and offensive...also Dany becomes a more interesting character.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Certainly couldn't be any worse than the original...not that I ever made it through the original. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh those are minor. And they can easily tell us about Tysha later, her story isn't really important to the plot until Book 3 anyhow.

After I watched this week's episode, I picked up the book, flipped to Sansa's scene and noticed they left out everything regarding Sandor Cleghorn and his knighthood by Joffrey. They also left out all the information we get through Catelynn's point of view regarding Jon Arryan. Without that last bit of information? It is impossible for a non-reader to piece together why and who killed Jon Arryan. Really curious to see how they resolve those two plot bits. Also, I think, they may have left out the bit with Robert Barratheon discussing Bran's condition with the royal family - how Bran would be better off dead.
It seems minor - but it is really important.

What news that Ned hadn't spilled himself did Cersei get from her? That he really meant it?

In the book, Sansa tells Cersei that
Ned has arranged for their departure and how she'd rather stay and be with Joffrey. Which Ned doesn't tell anyone. She states it before Ned tells Cersei what he has found out.
(I'd forgotten about it - a co-worker at work who is listening to the audio version of the novel and not watching the tv series - reminded me.) Personally? I'm glad they deleted it - because it makes Sansa more sympathetic. In the book, I was ranting at her for about twenty pages.

And they left out the Tysha story.

Actually, they tell that in more depth in the second and third books. He does tell Sha a good portion of it, and he has several conversations with his father about it. The pivotal one, of course, is with Jamie. It's through flashbacks in both Jamie and Tyrion's pov's that we get most of that story.

Sort of hard to tell it here - because who would Tyrion tell it to? You can't really do flashbacks (well you could - but since they haven't done any for anyone else - it would be really odd.) No, they have to stick with the current style - which is no voice over or flashbacks or third person distant, as opposed to Martin and Whedon's which was third person close. Which means - we'll probably get Tyrion's back story with Tysha the same way we got Little Finger's backstory with Catelynn (through a conversation with Tywin or Jamie (with Little Finger it was a conversation with Ned) and a confession to a whore - (like Little Finger, Tyrion only trusts whores.) To be fair - the book in regards to Tyrion is more or less the same - flashbacks in Game, conversations with Shae, Tywin and Jamie in Swords.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

It's a George RR Martin script so it's interesting that he left it out (over on TWOP they said that he said somewhere that he regreted Sansa's tattling and in retrospect thought it was uneccesary and so deliberately chose to leave it out. Wonder if that's true.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee. At least I'm not the only insane pedante out there. Although..
will admit that I could not remember who was credited for writing the episode, I assumed Whedon wrote it.
Had to look it up.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Was this week's episode or last week's the George RR Martin script? I'm guessing this week's - although last week's is when Sansa should have told the Queen.

I can see why he regretted putting it in the book - it
makes Sansa look like a spoilt whiny brat, and unsympathetic during a critical series of scenes. And it makes little sense that she'd do it - since she has to go out of her way to do so, and the Queen hasn't been that friendly to her. Worked better leaving it out. Glad he did.

But why did he leave out the Sandor Cleghorn scenes? Or the whole bit about Jon Arryan and his family?

Hmmm...wonder if Martin sees the series as a way of correcting stuff he didn't like in his books?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

There's evidence in interviews that Whedon rewrote the vast majority of the scripts..he was rewriting Selfless while on the Firefly set.

Not all show-runners do this, but it does appear to be common, particularly amongst the *cough*controlfreaks*cough*.
Doris Egan wrote in her blog that David Simon rewrote most of the scripts on Homicide Life on the Streets and she was lucky to get a sentence or a line from a script she wrote to air. While the creators of Dark Angel and Smallville and House let scripts air with relatively little reworking from the show-runners.

To be honest? I thought Whedon was credited for writing Lover's Walk - I had to look it up to be sure it wasn't Petrie, turned out it was Dan Vebber. The only writer's I think who didn't get re-written were Marti Noxon, David Fury, Tim Minear, and possibly Jane Espenson. Which explains why she thinks Petrie wrote all of Fool for Love. Later, he backed off of Drew Goddard.

For example? Whedon/Marti/and Petrie wrote Fool for Love. Whedon did all the Spike flashbacks in concert with Tim Minear/David Greenwalt who were writing Darla at the same time.

Sigh...the fact I know and still remember all of this, is a sad sad thing. ;-) It's just really odd that Jane Espenson doesn't or that she doesn't think we do?

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I picked up the book, flipped to Sansa's scene and noticed they left out everything regarding Sandor Cleghorn and his knighthood by Joffrey.

I think they are moving all the Sansa/Hound things to next season. Don't really know why though.

They also left out all the information we get through Catelynn's point of view regarding Jon Arryan.

Did they? I think the fostering with the Lannisters is mentioned, maybe she'll learn the bit about the Stannis later. So far they have left the Blackfish out completely, which is a bit sad.

In the book, Sansa tells Cersei that
Ned has arranged for their departure and how she'd rather stay and be with Joffrey. Which Ned doesn't tell anyone. She states it before Ned tells Cersei what he has found out.

I just reread the whole book and looked the scene up in particular. It says, after she finished telling her story, they locked her up and a few hours later the fighting began, which places it way after Eddard tells Cersei all his plans. No he doesn't explicitly say that he planned to remove his daughters and really go through with it, but I think Cersei could have figured that out on her own (although she does state that she couldn't have done it without Sansa in book two).

I'm also glad they deleted it, it was just pointless.

Sort of hard to tell it here - because who would Tyrion tell it to?

In the book he actually tells it to Bronn when they walk in the Vale of Arryn.

But I agree that for the tv show it makes more sense to tell the story when something actually happens with it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Did she murder a child or act in self-defense? I don't remember a good portion of Game of Thrones, but Ayra is a child - she's only 12 years old.

Sansa is about 14. Bran is 10 here, I think, in the books he's about 8 and Ayra is 10. They've made them a little older in the tv series.

I'm influenced by the books regarding Sansa. She is admittedly more sympathetic here.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It also makes no sense that Tyrion would tell it to Bronn - it didn't in the books either. Since Tyrion doesn't trust Bronn. So, I can see why they left that out.

I think the fostering with the Lannisters is mentioned, maybe she'll learn the bit about the Stannis later. So far they have left the Blackfish out completely, which is a bit sad.

Was it? I don't remember it being, but my memory isn't perfect on this.
It's important. Because without that...you can't figure out the whole Jon Arryan bit. I hope it is in there. Although I suppose they could bring it up later, it's not like they don't have time.

I don't mind the Blackfish being left out - that character bored me in Storm of Swords - every time I hit on his chapters the whole story ground to a crashing halt.

Agreed on Sansa. I forgot about it - until someone at work reminded me.
And I hated that section in the books. Made Sansa look like a complete twit. And she really doesn't need help in that department. ;-)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I don't really remember how it was described in the book. Although I have the book on the floor beside me so:

"There she is," a voice hissed close behind her.
Startled, Arya whirled. A stableboy stood beynd her, a smirk on his face, a filthy white undertunic peeking out from beneath a soiled jerkin. His boots were covered with manure, and he had a pitchfork in one had.
"Who are you?" she asked.
"She don't know me," he said, "But I knows her, oh, yes. The wolf girl."
"Help me saddle a horse," Arya pleaded, reaching into the chest, groping for Needle. "My father's the Hand of the King. He'll reward you."
"Your father's dead," the boy said. He shuffled toward her. "It's the queen who'll be rewarding me. Come here, girl."
"Stay away!" Her fingers closed around Needle's hilt.
"I says come." He grabbed her arm, hard.
Everything Syrio Forel had ever taught her vanished in a heartbeat. In that instant of sudden terror, the only lesson Arya could remember was the one Jon Snow had given her, the very first.
She stuck him with the pointy end, driving the blade upward with hysterical strength.
{...}"Oh gods," he moaned, as his undertunic began to redden. "Take it out."
When she took it out, he died.
The horses were screaming. Arya stood over the body still and frightened in the face of death. {...} she backed away slowly. Needle red in her hand. She had to get away, someplace far from here, someplace safe away from the stableboy's accusing eyes.

Was there a good option for either of the girls? Sansa is taken a hostage and mad an abused pawn for years. (and in the book got her best friend Jeyne sold into a brothel. Although 'got' seems a strong word. Didn't realize that that's how Cersei disposed of Jeyne, I guess.) Arya is lost... also for years.

Both of them lost their entire family in one fell swoop, left in a dangerous sea filled with sadistic vipers.

A good option at that juncture was about as hard to find as a good (and effective) King in Westeros... not a lot of them.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think he tells the same story to Shae in Book II when he's trying to explain why he's trying to send her away from King's Landing, and that may actually be the better juncture for him to tell the tale. It makes more sense in that context.

(Albeit, I have to say Shae lost just about all of my sympathy when she minimized what had been done to Lollys)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah. This week's script.

From what I saw on TWOP, yeah, he is apparently allowing a bit of re-working of things he didn't think quite worked.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I agree. It makes sense to bring it up later when it has some more immediate consequences.

(Albeit, I have to say Shae lost just about all of my sympathy when she minimized what had been done to Lollys)

I find it had to feel sympathy for Shae either (though I liked her a lot for quite a while). But I think one of the things that's quite good about Martin's books is that they don't glorify prostitution. In the end Shae might play the happy hooker because Tyrion likes to believe it. But her job means she has been raped for money probably from an early age on. In the end it's easy t see why her loyalty is false and why she would downplay rape.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the new layout! The one with the trees was pretty but the squished comment section was terrible to navigate.

I think in the books it makes sense to tell it to Bronn, because they might die at any moment on one hand and also because if Tyrion wants to take him to his father, the story has way less power over him, if he told it and it didn't get told by his father or rumors.

I don't mind the Blackfish being left out - that character bored me in Storm of Swords - every time I hit on his chapters the whole story ground to a crashing halt.


The Blackfish has chapters? They must have bored me too, because I can't remember.

Made Sansa look like a complete twit. And she really doesn't need help in that department. ;-)

Really not, I'm glad the books where she starts to get smarter are coming soon.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the new layout! The one with the trees was pretty but the squished comment section was terrible to navigate.

You're welcome. And sigh, yes. I got fed up finally with the trees one. Terrible is an understatement. More like headache-inducing. Had it before and had the same problem. But it took me an hour and half to find one that was a)readable and b) had a halfway legible and navigatable comments thread. The pretty ones either had insane font styles or insane comment threads. Stupid lj. DW is better, but few people are ever there.


The Blackfish has chapters? They must have bored me too, because I can't remember.

Oh yes. You really don't remember Storm very well, do you? ;-)

They are the Davos chapters. Take place at sea on the way to Stannis, and with Stannis Barratheon. It's through Davos (The Blackfish) that we finally meet Stannis Barratheon, which is why the Blackfish is important. He sets the stage for Stannis. The chapters are sleep-inducing until about page 800 or so, when Davos finally reaches Stannis. Up until then it's a lot of poetic whining musing on his life, lost sons, lost home, etc. But the Stannis bit is actually interesting and important. But they can do it without the Blackfish. It's possible.

Is Sansa in Feast of Crows? Haven't read that one yet. I take lengthy breaks between each book. ;-)

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. You really don't remember Storm very well, do you? ;-)

No and Feast even worse, but I am rereading currently and I will remember it annoyingly well when I'm done :).

I still think we're not talking about the same guy though. I agree Davos is boring, but he's not the Blackfish.

That's Catelyn's uncle, the black sheep of the Tullies (he has some row with her father over not marrying). He knights for Lysa in the vale but when he hears that the Riverlands are under Lannister attack he rides with Catelyn. I think it's him who mentions that Robin was to be fostered with Stannis, not Tywin as Lysa claims.

Is Sansa in Feast of Crows? Haven't read that one yet. I take lengthy breaks between each book. ;-)


Yes, she is. I'd wait to read Feast and Dance together (it's only July anyway). I have to reread Feast (and all the others) before I start Dance or I'll have no idea what is going on whatsoever. The characters I really missed in Feast where Tyrion and Dany.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree. I don't really blame Shae because she was just trying to live and to advance herself through the only methods that she had. It's just that as the story went along you could tell that Tyrion was deluding himself about her nature... because it was what he needed to believe. He kept insisting that she was sweet and loving... and yet she was extremely hard-hearted about poor Lolly's (whose story truly horrifies me) and I noticed right quick when Tyrion finally saw Shae again she had not a word about his injuries and near death, etc. If she truly cared about him (like he wanted to believe) concern over his rather terrible injuries would have been in there somewhere.

Though I was glad that Tyrion never thought of taking revenge against her. There was nothing to avenge. I understood his flipping out on Tywin though. Tywin taking Shae was the height of hypocrisy and that in conjunction to what he had done to Tysha? I felt bad for what vengeance did to Tyrion, but Tywin? He deserved it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No and Feast even worse, but I am rereading currently and I will remember it annoyingly well when I'm done :).

Well you apparently remember some of it better than I do. Or certain sections. Because I confused the Blackfish with the Davos - The Fisher something or other. I can't remember his nickname, except he has one. And he bored the heck out of me.

That's Catelyn's uncle, the black sheep of the Tullies (he has some row with her father over not marrying). He knights for Lysa in the vale but when he hears that the Riverlands are under Lannister attack he rides with Catelyn

Ah. The Black sheep of the family who like Lyssa is estranged from the father (possibly for the same reason). I can see why they left him out - he doesn't do all that much. I forgot about him completely.

Not surprised Tyrion and Dany aren't in Feast - I'm guessing Jamie most likely won't be in Dance, nor will Jon Snow.
Was Ayra in Feast? I think he split it between the two realms. Tyrion and Ayra leave Westros at the end of Storm.

I admittedly fell in love with Tyrion in Storm. Dany...is growing on me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah, you've reached the bit where Tyrion finally takes his vengeance on his father? So you know Jamie's arc and Tyrion's now more or less?

Not sure if that changes your opinion of either character or not?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well Shae is a replacement for Tysha for Tyrion. Keep in mind this is a man who can't get a woman interested in him unless she's a whore. Because in this world everything especially sex and marriage is about power.

I'm not sure you can state that just because Shae is a prostitute she's been "raped for money" all her life. I think the sex was fairly consensual. She just sees it as little more than sex, a means to an end. In this case - a way of obtaining power and money. Also, it is made clear in the books that all Shae cares about are money and power.

The comparison between Shae, Sansa, Lolly, and Tysha are made - showing how each handles their situation, depicting that Shae had other options. Granted of the four - Sansa clearly had the most power or privilege. Tysha...I'm never sure about. What they did to her was abominable of course...but it is unclear whether she was interested in Tyrion or Tyrion's money.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah, I wondered which script he'd write. Interesting he chose this weeks.

Also makes the things he chose to leave out even more interesting. He left out quite a bit. I think the Catelynn/Robb scenes are where we find out more about Jon Arryan and his plans for Robin, which Lyssa was less than happy about.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Not really. I had always been spoiled for Jaime's 'redemption arc' so I always knew that he wasn't a straight-up bad guy, but I still think he's suseptible to a great deal of confirmation bias based on his opinion of himself. And I feel really awful for poor Tyrion who just wanted to be loved but who keeps getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop until he snaps.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Because I confused the Blackfish with the Davos - The Fisher something or other. I can't remember his nickname, except he has one. And he bored the heck out of me.

It's the onion knight, because he ued to smuggle onions into Dragonstone during a siege. I wouldn't remember though if my reread hadn't just reached clash of kings where he is in the prologue.

Ah. The Black sheep of the family who like Lyssa is estranged from the father (possibly for the same reason). I can see why they left him out - he doesn't do all that much. I forgot about him completely.

He refused to marry, that's why they are estranged. But they make up when Cat takes him to Riverrun after Rob did away with Jaime.

Not surprised Tyrion and Dany aren't in Feast - I'm guessing Jamie most likely won't be in Dance, nor will Jon Snow.
Was Ayra in Feast? I think he split it between the two realms. Tyrion and Ayra leave Westros at the end of Storm.

Arya is in Feast, yes. I don't know about Jaimie and Jon in Dance. I think almost everyone will be there but some will only have one or two chapters.

I fell in love with Tyrion the first time he opens his mouth, I think he was what made me fall for the books in general. I adore that character. There are others I like (like Arya,Varys, Dany, Jaimie, Sam,...) but Tyrion is a guy I can just majorly identify with.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

They've released a list of POV Characters:
Varamyr Sixskins (prologue POV)
Daenerys Targaryen
Jon Snow
Tyrion Lannister
Davos Seaworth
Bran Stark
Arya Stark
Asha Greyjoy, aka 'The Wayward Bride'
'Reek'
Victarion Greyjoy
Quentyn Martell, aka 'The Merchant's Man'
Areo Hotah
Barristan Selmy
Melisandre of Asshai
Cersei Lannister
Jaime Lannister
An as-yet unidentified new POV
An as-yet unidentified epilogue POV

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

All for Dance of Dragons?? That's an insane list. And we still have Davos??? (I'd rather have Brienne to be honest. Rather liked Brienne. Although admittedly have not read Feast.)

This is going to be tome. Maybe I'll get it for the Kindle, on the other hand the Kindle makes it different to skip around.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Tywin deserves his death all the way. I'm also glad Shae was not harmed though, because in my book she owed Tyrion no loyalty.

I think Tyrion really has a horrible emotional scar from what Tywin did to him with Tysha. Because it instilled this thing in Tyrion that there are no good people. Even he himself ended up being a monster and the best that he can hope for is bought pretend love. And he prefers to be upfront about it.

He would actually want real love but he denies it even exists and so deludes himself, thinking he has it all in Shae. It'll be interesting meeting him after all of this. I think he might have lost his taste for whores.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think both are the products of their environment and their father.
I loved them both separately.

Jamie fascinated me - because he really isn't a bad guy at all. But he is painted that way. (Won't argue it though - been there done that with Spike (who is a similar character in a lot of ways) - it was emotionally exhausting and in the end ultimately pointless. ...
;-)) Mileage clearly varies. (shrugs).

I think Tyrion would have been screwed no matter what family he ended up in, but the Tywin Lannister was the worst possible choice for a father. All Tywin cares about his name.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I think it was fairly clear it was Tyrion, not his money, in Tysha's case.

I'm not sure you can state that just because Shae is a prostitute she's been "raped for money" all her life.

Maybe I worded it wrong. What I mean is, Shae has sex she doesn't really want all the time. To do that, she has to become a person who doesn't care about that. Meaning she would have no sympathy for another woman raped, because if she can just shut her eyes and do it, why can't the other woman? And if it really is so horrible to be just used for fucking, isn't the money she asks far to little for what's happening? It's the hardnesses you have towards yourself that you most likely also show others.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Wait a moment. He did take revenge on Shae. He strangled her with the hand chain. I had thought maybe I was remembering it wrong and I would have liked it a lot better if she had lived, but I looked it up, he does kill her.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...granted it has been a while since I've read the book, but I don't remember Shae being upset about being fucked for money or viewing it that way. From Shae's pov - Shae is using and fucking for money.

If anything she looks at Sansa as if she's an idiot for not sleeping with Tyrion and makes fun of her. Shae's view of sex is somewhat different than ours, from her perspective having sex probably isn't a big deal. While we may see it as awful to be fucked for money, Shae probably views it very differently. Little Finger's speech (which I know you didn't like) is important - because it convey's the whore's point of view - that Shae is fucking Tyrion, using him, making him believe she needs him, that she loves him, that his "cock" is the most important thing to her better than anyone else's. And it works - he protects her, he gives her things, but when he doesn't take her to the party or make her his lady - she realizes, it's not taking her far enough, so she fucks him in another way - she makes a deal with Cersei, and then hooks up with Tywin. Shae fucks the Lannisters for all that they are worth - it does back fire on her, but she had no way of knowing it would.

[As an aside, yes, I hate prostitution and think that is horrible.
BUT...I don't think that is what is going on in the story. Shae is not a victim here, far from it.]

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

OOps! Guess I blocked that out. I just remembered the lingering sadness that Tyrion had taken a turn for the worse.

I tend to worry about Arya in that regard too (I haven't read AFwC and I still haven't quite finished SoS. I only read the part about Tyrion/Tywin because I once skimmed ahead.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't hate Jaime or anything. And he deserves kudos for jumping into the bear pit. I think one hindrance for me is that I'm 5'10" and big boned and so reading his private thought insults of Brienne frequently has me wanting her to kick him in the nuts. So I tend to think of him as certainly not without positive qualities... but still kind of an asshole...which in this set of books still leaves him as one of the more likable characters.

It's kind of like Spike in that I have a friend who adores Jaime and who used to be a huge Spike fan whose feelings for the character turned on him during Season 7 because he rather lost his edge (which I agree did happen and I thought that was sad, but it didn't actually change my entire view of the character). In discussing it with her I realized that while we had both loved the character of Spike what we had each specifically loved were actually different qualities that he possessed.

Tyrion as a character is somewhat closer to my fiction kinks, I think.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think one hindrance for me is that I'm 5'10" and big boned and so reading his private thought insults of Brienne frequently has me wanting her to kick him in the nuts. So I tend to think of him as certainly not without positive qualities... but still kind of an asshole...which in this set of books still leaves him as one of the more likable characters.

Hee. I get that. I'm 6 foot and big boned (also, ahem, a little overweight - will not release by how much). Waves!! Although I do have a bust, I don't believe Brienne does - she's completely flat chested.

Yeah, his reaction to Brienne was annoying, but keep in mind the man's idea of beauty is Cersei - he does begin to change his mind.
Have you gotten to the bit where he sends Brienne on her quest?

And he does do quite a few things for Brienne that well, WTF does come to mind. That whole bear bit threw me. As does what he does for her later - which he really didn't have to do. Would have been a lot easier if he hadn't. He goes against Tywin and Cersei in the end, which is really interesting.

Oh - I'm nothing like your friend - I liked Spike when he lost his edge. Jamie also loses his edge. The two characters have remarkably similar arcs.

I'm not necessarily in love with Jamie, but he did surprise me as a character. Much like Spike did. The reason I enjoy both characters is they start out as boiler-plate bad guys - the villain that you love to hate, and then, slowly are revealed to be a)not quite that black and white or straight up villain, b) it makes sense how they became that monster, and c) are, surprise, surprise, capable of doing insanely heroic and honorable things that are still completely in character. I find these types of characters far more interesting than characters like Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Jon Snow or Dany Taragyrn, who don't really change all that much and are pretty much what you thought they were at the start. In short characters that start out one way, and then suddenly turn out to be something else - I find really interesting - particularly if they are written well. Because that is really hard to pull off effectively. It's actually a lot easier to write the Tyrions and Jon Snow's who are more constant.

I admittedly have weird kinks. I like prickley characters with broad arcs. I remember fighting with people on Spike - they found his snark mean, I thought it hilarious. Same thing with Jamie - I find his comments funny...partly because he's so undercut by the text. His ideal female is Cersei...LOL!!! Boy does he change his mind.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oops..I hope I didn't spoil you in my last response. I can't figure out where you are in the text. And it does not help that I can't remember in exactly what order some of these things happened.

I skimmed ahead too...I kept worrying about Arya and Tyrion. I did the same thing in Clash and Game. Also you get really bogged down
in some of the pov's, George RR Martin has this insane desire to tell you everything.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

RIght now? I'm post Red Wedding and I'm expecting Joffrey to die in the next few pages... so yay.
George RR Martin has this insane desire to tell you everything.

Doesn't he though? Sometimes you want to say "You know, George, unless what happened to some old king 300 years ago actually has some bearing on the plot at hand I don't need to know!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Change is one of my favorite kinks. I like to look back over the course of a story and see that someone has changed a great deal.

I've just noticed though that Tyrion is the one who mines the most emotion from me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Joffrey hasn't died yet??? Oooh...you have some interesting WTF surprises coming up.

I was highly spoiled because I kept skimming ahead. Martin has this annoying habit of leaving on your on a cliff-hanger regarding a character you really care about - such as say Ayra, only to find yourself greeted by a chapter of a character who isn't really doing anything. I remember counting how many chapters were between me and the next Ayra, Tyrion, Samwell and Jamie chapters. The Davos chapters drove me nuts. As did the Catelynn ones for a while.

Sometimes you want to say "You know, George, unless what happened to some old king 300 years ago actually has some bearing on the plot at hand I don't need to know!

I think he read too much Alexandra Dumas. And oh yes. Talk about overkill. It's why I actually prefer the tv series in some respects - it's faster and better paced. But it is curious what he is leaving out.

I'm post Red Wedding and I'm expecting Joffrey to die in the next few pages... so yay.

Let me know if you run into the speech Tyrion gave to Lyssa in the Espenson episode, which everyone credited to Espenson and I could swear he actually gives word for word to Cersei and Tywin and Joffrey...somewhere in that chapter or series of scenes. Something about wanking into soup and tricking his sister into drinking it.
I couldn't find it - but I swear it's in Storm.

Isn't the Red Wedding the goriest thing ever?? I'm sort of hoping that the tv series decides not to show all of it. Really don't want to see some of that on TV - too Caligula or maybe Roman Polanski's MacBeth.

What happens after Joffrey's death is extremely difficult to read. I skimmed ahead because I wanted to strangle Cersei and Tywin.

I'm right there with you on Tyrion by the way. And Peter Dinklage's portrayal is just...love.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, Tyrion is my favorite character, Tyrion and Ayra - tend to grab at me the most. But I'm also fond of Brienne, Samwell, and Jamie.
Dany, Sansa and Jon Snow have grown on me. I'm on the fence about Bran - those stories are getting repetitive.

I'm not sure Jamie's arc is as perfect as many fans think - there's a few bits that feel a little too neat. But it's not over either and he and Brienne oddly change places, which I found sort of interesting. Also the fact that Martin's maiming of Jamie is so perfectly karmic - it echoes in many ways Bran's injury - in that now Jamie is a cripple, and unable to do the one thing he defined himself by. Bran defined himself with climbing, Jamie with fighting. It's perfect karmic justice and reminds me a little of Spike's chip in how it forces Jamie to rethink his choices and motivations. Also gory beyond belief. These are gory and violent books. The injury changes Jamie's relationships with everyone in his family and is the exact opposite of how Bran is treated. The Lannisters all treat him with disdain. He is isolated by it.
Emasculated in many ways. And it is such an ironic injury.

That's the one thing I like - the karmic twists.

I don't know if I'll make it through the books though - have some of the same issues you do with them.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying Shae is a victim, maybe she was a long time ago, but she is not now.

And I think what I'm saying doesn't differ really from what you're saying. Yes, Shae has convinced herself sex is no big deal. She would have to, to survive as what she is and not be in a state of perpetual victimhood.

But precisely because she rents out her own body to get on, sympathy for people who would be traumatized by being used like that becomes impossible. So she mocks Sansa, who is not able to perform that self objectification to get on. And she has no sympathy for Lollys, because hey, just sex, no big deal.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. I agree, I think her view of Lolly and Sansa's situations is fairly myopic or self-absorbed.

Shae, unlike Tyrion, isn't capable of seeing a perspective other than her own or feeling true empathy.