Misogyny and Jealousy - two of the most misused words on the net

[shadowkat]

You know you are getting older and potentially spinterish - when you get social networking invites to join meetupclub's which either are just below your age range or at it. I turn 42 next month and just got a NoDating Cafe meetup group invite for a group that has an age range from 22-42.

Have today off and getting relatively little down per usual. I did clean my apartment - sort of. Vaccummed. Cleaned the shower and the kitchen floor. Am blatantly ignoring the fridge as well as my desk and closet, not to mention the book shelves which, ahem, have books stacked every which way and two layered upon them. I either need to get rid of some of my books or buy more and bigger book shelves. The former would help with the allergies. Have made the decision to borrow books from friends, family, and the library from hereon in - let's see how long this resolution lasts. I also wrote numerous posts on the internet, as you know. Sort of stating the obvious there. And read numerous posts - which you don't know, because I seldom write responses - tend to be long-winded and prone to stick my foot in mouth.

Speaking of foot in mouth commenting...

I have been resisting the urge to post mocking responses to self-righteous rants about how Dollhouse or such and such is sooo misogynist. People, please, look up the word. Here, I'll do it for you. Misogynist means "hatred of women". It does not mean patronizing women or belittling women or treating women as your sex slave or having mommy issues or having an urgent need to protect women, or seeing them as little girls, infantile, and ignorant or even animals. It means "hate". People have been using misogyny as a catch-all phrase for every remotely anti-feminist thing they can think of.

Granted, I'm the last person to bitch about word syntax - since I misuse words half the time. But this one's not hard. And misusing it is making you look like an idiot.

Hint: if a character races to save a woman or a book shows a guy trying to save a girl. It is not misogynistic. If a character opens a door for a woman. He is not misogynistic. If he makes love to her or enjoys having sex with her - he is most likely not misogynistic.

He may well be paternalistic or chauvinistic. But not misogynistic.

Mad Men is not misogynistic. Paternalistic? Sure. But that's the industry it is portraying and the time period. People acted like that back then. Heck they act like that now. I know, I've interacted with that industry.

People do the same silly things with the word jealousy - confusing it with envy.

I always laugh when folks write: I'm so jealous of you, you are going to Europe. (Uhm okay, so you are jealouse because the person has stolen or taken away your trip to go to your Europe?) or I'm so jealous of your house. (Right, so, the house has taken your friend from you? You are competing with the house for your friend's attention? That's what jealousy means - it means that you are jealous of something you love's relationship with something else. Example - I am jealous of my husband's relationship with my cat. The cat likes my husband now more than me.)

Apparently, I can be as nit-picky about certain things as the next person. Good to know. Might make me a bit more tolerant of the nit-picky responses and rants I see online. Also, makes me realize how easy it is to misunderstand one another - when we use the wrong words or syntax in our writing. I feel really sorry for the people online who are using computers or dictionaries to translate posts that are in languages other than their own. We are not making this easy, are we?

Comments

[powerofthebook.livejournal.com]

(passing by on a friend's flist)

A-freaking-men to the above. Though sometimes I think I'd be happy if people knew the proper usage of it's versus its'.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, speaking purely for myself - I think people probably do know the proper usage of its' vs. it's - it is just a really easy typographical error to make.

I know. At work I wrote and printed off two boilerplate contract letters, proofed them twice. Only to go back and find that frigging "it's" error in the midst of the letter. It wasn't my mistake, but didn't matter - could have made it too. It's such an easy typo to make - particularly when you are writing fast and your head is ahead of the old fingers.

Misogynist on the other hand...is not a typographical error. I think a lot of people want to use it as short-hand for: "demeaning" and "patronizing" - which are not the same thing.

[joe-sweden.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes. I have to restrain myself from sending back emails with the uses of "its" and "it's" corrected...

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Big word about the misuse of "misogyny". Its excessive and inappropriate use is not just a matter of imprecise language; it coarsens our conversation about issues that really do need to be given nuanced and thoughtful consideration.

And good to call attention to the distinction between jealousy and envy: I've no doubt failed to make it myself, but our language is prettiest when we do attend to the nuance. Now I can add this one to my arsenal.

And I wish I could recall other places where imprecise use of terms causes real problems. But all I can think of is my annoyance that people don't know when to use "less" as compared to "fewer". Fox canonized the misuse in one of its blurbs "Less commercials!!!" during Dollhouse. But that's not the same sort of problem as losing the nuance of our vocabulary, which is a real shame in a language as vocabulary-rich as English. Ugh. Can't recall one instance of the many times that sort of real blurring of meaning has bothered me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think one of the reasons the misuse of misogyny bugs me so much - is it is often used to brow-beat fans of a character or storyline. I've seen a lot of people online use the word as a weapon. A lot of men, interestingly enough, and usually along the lines of - how can women be interested in such a misogynistic character or storyline?

Using the word in that way, undermines its meaning and makes further discussion impossible.

[joe-sweden.livejournal.com]

Reading your point about less and fewer reminded me of something (something I'd been talking about the context of a conversation about less and fewer). There are some instances of purposeful incorrect usage that I can get behind, as part of language change-for-the-better.

So, like in Mean Girls where that girl is "trying to make "fetch" happen", I'm trying to make "they" happen as a singular as well as plural usage as a gender neutral pronoun, in place of he/she or some annoying neologistic alternative.

The French have some words that can be both singular and plural, depending on the context (eg vous - both polite singular and plural version of "you"), so why can't we?

Sometimes, a word that's wrong historically can become correct, if enough people use it on purpose, and in this instance, I think we really need it. I don't think using either he or she as a "neutral" is really going to work. If you use he, that perpetuates badness of the proper-human-people-have-a-penis-unless-proved-otherwise variety. And using "she" is often just confusing, because it makes me assume it's a woman.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Lately what I've seen people do with she/he is just that she/he. Or "hir". One individual online got very upset when I called them her, she/he inisted I use "hir".

In the latin languages, specifically French, if I recall - a lot of the words are either feminine or masculaine. The feminine nouns would have "e" at the end of them. While the masculaine would not. We'd end up with two versions of the same word - one with an "e" for the feminine and one without for the masculain.

Made life very confusing for me when I wrote in English and had to remember not to put "e"'s at the end of certain words. I still do it.

"Suite" as opposed to "suit" is just one example - of how this confused me.

Vous - in French, is either plural or formal. It is what you would call your teacher or a friend of a parent or an authority figure - you would use the pronoun "vous", while "tu" is informal and you use that for friends. French has informal and formal speech - English does too, actually - just read an academic journal. But the pronouns in English aren't always as formal.

Both languages do however specify gender - English is not alone in that. Neither language has found a way to handle someone who may not fit within either category, as far as I can tell. IT seems a bit nasty. S/He a bit hard to do orally. They? Too distant. You may have to make up a word.

[wenchsenior.livejournal.com]

Oh, the never-ending book dilemma! Even though I give several boxes of books to charity every year, I STILL have a 6 shelf-high bookcase full of books that I haven't yet gotten around to reading. And I still have the urge to keep buying more! I don't really like library books as much; I like actually owning them.

This causes me 1) to spend lots of money, and 2) lots of guilt due the increased carbon footprint I must be creating, so I've been vowing to borrow, read online, and go to the library more. I, too, am unsure how successful I'll be.

Also, your comments about envy vs jealousy (a while ago) made me much more conscious of my misuse of those words. Thanks.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee. You may want to read cakmpls comments on envy and jealousy below, she makes some good points. Those two words are easy to confuse.

Yep, have the same problem with books. I hate the smell of library books and love the smell and feel of new books. Also the covers of new books. Not to mention the thrill of owning them.

I did get rid of a few a while back via a Book Swap meetup group. But their meetups are now in hell and gone - or a bit of a hike, and I can't do that with twenty books. Also sold a few at a local book shop - but it's picky and doesn't take everything.

Ugh. I have the same problem with comic books - I know, technically speaking, they aren't any different than magazines. But I just can't bring myself to treat them as magazines. I have two crates taking up space in my bedroom along with a bookshelf full. What I should just do is open an e-bay account and sell them online - but e-bay terrifies me, and I'm not great at the whole shipping thing.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

That's what jealousy means - it means that you are jealous of something you love's relationship with something else.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it: no. That isn't what "jealousy" means. If you want, I can give you all the definitions from the OED, or from a variety of American English dictionaries from the 1800s till today. But first let's see whether you'll settle for Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th ed., on "jealous":
"1 a: intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness b: disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness
2: hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage
3: vigilant in guarding a possession"

So one certainly can, under meaning 2, be jealous of, feel jealousy toward, someone who is taking a trip that one wants to take; many people, of course, use the word when they aren't hostile at all. "Envy," however, also has that negative component: "painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage." So if you're glad your friend gets to take the trip, and merely wish that you could take such a trip too, you are neither jealous nor envious.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I guess it depends on how you interpret the definition, doesn't it?

I still see it as being worried or resentful of a rival taking something away from you or something you possess or are in competition for.

A trip to europe - is open to both people. Either can take it.
You can be envious of the person taking the trip. But jealous doesn't seem to make much sense? Unless of course you were planning on taking a trip with the friend say to Costa Rica - and the friend dumped you and took a trip to Europe instead.
Then I suppose you could be jealous of the trip to Europe.
The trip to Europe took your friend away from your trip.

At least that is my interpretation of the definitions listed above. "Rival" - is usually someone who is competition with you for something or can take something away - whether they are merely perceived as a rival or actual. Often with "jealousy" - they are perceived as a rival and not actually one.

Envy is when you covet what someone else has. Such as I covet your ability to go to Europe with a friend or I covet that new house or car that you purchased. Envy is often used as another word for covet.

While jealous is often used as another word for - I fear you are taking something I care about away from me. I am jealous of your relationship with my child. My child seems to prefer your company to mine and wants you as his mother.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Envy is not mere covetousness. Covetousness is an inordinate desire for what someone else has, without necessarily any accompanying feeling about the person or about their having the thing. Envy involves that "painful or resentful awareness"; in envy, you don't just want the thing, you feel pain or resentment that the other person has it.

These are all fine differences, and for practical purposes in everyday colloquial English, the words are often interchangeable.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

[As an aside, I agree with your last statement. I think Misogyny doesn't quite fit in the same category as envy and jealousy do. Since it has a much clearer meaning.]

Uh, I beg to differ. I think if you are resentful that someone has something - you do want it yourself. You do covet it.
Why else would you feel envy? I'm not going envy your house, if part of me wouldn't life to have it too.

Granted I may not "desire" it or desperately want to have it.
I may even, if I think about it, realize I don't really want it.

Envy is what happens when you see something that you didn't want or even think about wanting or coveting, until suddenly it's been thrown in your face. Commericials play on this emotion quite a bit. We don't feel jealousy when we watch the beautiful model hop in the beautiful corvet, we feel envy - or rather I do, since I hate to drive and don't really want the corvet - but I do when I watch that commericial. I covet that corvett. I desire it. And I am envious of the model who is driving it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sigh, and yes, I know, I used the wrong its again.

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

The way I remembered it was that jealousy involved a person, but envy involved a thing.

Thus, you could be jealous of a person who owned a nice house, but you are envious of the house itself.

As you know all too well, the meanings of words migrate and change through long term usage, and it wouldn;t surprise me if in another 50 or 100 years the distinction between terms such as these could be lost and they'll become essentially synonyms.

I was a long term abuser of the its/it's usage. In my defense it still makes little sense to me that an "'s" denotes possession in just about every case except when after the word "it".

Is that the cat's food?

Yes, that's its food.

But the usage that really drives me batty along the lines of "This just can't be right..." is:

The President this Wednesday gave a heated speech to the unruly Republicans. (Supposedly the correct syntax.)

vs.

This Wednesday, the President gave a heated speech...(etc).

The second one sounds right to me. The first one always sounds wrong, as wrong as if I heard someone say:

The President this Wednesday gave a speech heated to the Republicans unruly.

(Although in some other languages, the latter would be syntactically correct.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think the reason they (the Henry Higgins of the world) decided to make its (the possessive form) as opposed to "it's"
is to prevent confusion.

Think about it. If I wrote - "Yes, It has a tail and five whiskers. And by the way it's Sunday today, so we will be taking it to the vet." You'd wonder - wait - Sunday is owned by "it". Unless of course you knew that it's - means it is.
And its is the possessive.

Granted that may not be the best example. Also, we should technically speaking be able to figure out from the context of the sentence what it's means. That's how I do it anyway. But not everyone can do that - so it's/its rule is set up to help the poor fools who can't do written contextual analysis. ;-)

Agree on your other points.

[joe-sweden.livejournal.com]

So, I agree with you overall about the misuse of words, but I have a nitpick of my own. Well, a disagreement over your nitpick.

It's about Mad Men:

Mad Men is not misogynistic. Paternalistic? Sure. But that's the industry it is portraying and the time period. People acted like that back then.

I think that endemic misogyny is still misogyny - when the general tenor of conversation in an office, or in a society, is full of hate for women, then I don't think it matters whether it's the view of society as a whole, or an individual's hatred of women.

I don't think all the characters in Mad Men are like that, and not all the time even when they are. But some of the treatment of women is charged not only with sexism in the more general sense - there's an anger and hatred in there too.

Obviously that's my perception of it, and when we're talking about emotions like "hate", well, lots of other things can seem like hate (eg envy, or even jealousy - eg Othello), and hate can seem like other things. But I take the attitudes of people like Pete at times to be misogyny. Not all the time, but there's a particularly spiteful hatred in some of his interactions with women.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure it's hate or spite that Pete feels towards women, so much as resentment. A sense that they are stripping away his power.

Mad Men takes place during a time period when women were beginning to get ahead in the work-force. They were no longer merely playing the traditional roles of secretary, wife, and mother. They were starting to take on increastingly unconventional roles that had up to that time been mostly done by men, not just men - but white men.

What you see happening in Mad Men is a power struggle - between the white men currently in power and those who may be taking it away. They feel threatened and understandably so - up until this point - their only real competition was each other or the poor working class slob trying to get ahead. Now they are competiting against women and minorities - they feel threatened and are defending their terrirtory. Also to a degree they hate change.

So that's part of it. I'm not sure that is hate - although it may well become hate. We tend to hate things that take what we want or desire away from us. Right now I see a lot of fear as well.

Mad Men is a tough show to stomach for two reasons - the people in it are ugly (not physically but as they are presented), and the realization that this is true and it was like that - makes the show a bit difficult to swallow. It's not your normal escapist fare.

[joe-sweden.livejournal.com]

PS I used to do advertising and I totally agree - they're still like that now! Though to be honest, they're not just misogynists. They hate other men too :D And particularly gay men. It's all very macho and unpleasant.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I wish it was just one industry. The Entertainment industry across the board seems to be that way. It's why I think - we are seeing so much commentary on it in tv shows and films.

And I can't really say that transportation, health insurance and finance are immune. Although oddly enough, they aren't worse and in some regards, actually better. I have no idea why - since I'd expected the opposite.

They are better than they used to be or so I'm told. But not by much.