Another Buffy Meta - figuring out Crush (and a little on that creepy Jackson coverage that won't end

[shadowkat]

Is any one else creeped out by the gavel to gavel media coverage and weird mass adoration/mourning/celebration of Michael Jackson's untimely drug overdose due to the massive stress and insomina, partially brought on by a life trying to please "fans"? He can't even get a private funeral with his family. Yep, like Princess Diana, John Lennon, Elvis, Heath Ledger, Madonna, and so many others before them - Michael was killed by fan worship. Indirectly, true. But as one D-list celebrity once pointed out - trying to constantly please, being constantly in the public eye, constantly adored is toxic to the human soul. Fame - George Clooney stated once upon a time - is the cancer of success. Too true. Fans kill their icons. Then dance on their graves. Ironic that. Also incredibly frightening and creepy. Thank god, thank god, I am not famous. Poor Michael Jackson was never given the choice to be anything but famous. I don't envy him, I don't admire him, I merely pity him. As Stephen King points out in his EW column of Michael Jackson: Jackson was one of those poor souls burdened with too much talent and an insatiable desire to please, but never quite feeling he had. His life and death were tragedies. Not unlike Amadeus Mozart before him. He also reminds me a great deal of James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, Elvis, and Heath Leadger - who also died tragically and were mourned in creepy ways by their fans. Lonely souls who could not sleep, and never quite knew how to handle their fame. The difference between Jackson and the others - is he didn't get to choose his fate. His parents gave him no choice. I don't see anything worth celebrating here. It's just sad and creepy.

In my rewatching of Buffy - up to The Body now, which I'm not quite ready to watch. Difficult episode. I tend to sob during it. It doesn't effect everyone apparently. But then there are people who cry during Becoming, when Tara dies in Seeing Red, and Spike's death in Chosen, and I never really have. So different strokes for different folks, I guess. At any rate the rewatch has made me aware of several bits - one, a few things are bit head-scratchy, in the, I'm not entirely sure this makes as much sense as the writer's may think category.


Buffy in Crush - wonders what it is she could have done to turn Spike on or lead him on? I didn't do anything she says. Except maybe beat him up a few times. For Spike that's probably first base. She's saying this to her mother by the way. Apparently Joyce and Buffy have had a temporary case of amensia and have completely forgotten that Buffy, just two episodes ago in Checkpoint, took Dawn and Joyce to Spike's and requested that he protect them with his life. Telling him that he was the only one strong enough that she trusted to protect her family. So, wait, you take the two people you care the most about in all the world to Spike, don't pay him, and ask him to protect them?? Then, the very next episode - when Dawn disappears - you ask Spike, again, to help you find her. Not only do you ask him - you have him patrol with you to do it. You don't have him go with Xander or Giles - which would make more sense. Powerful Spike with Xander. Giles with you. And...you don't think this is leading him on? Honey! Wake up!! Didn't you learn anything dating Angel and Riley???

If I were Spike, I'd think I had a chance too - based on those two scenes alone. Granted he goes about it in a relatively creepy manner...but still. Also, Buffy does this whole diatribe to Dawn about how unsafe it is for her to be visiting Spike in his lair - when just two episodes ago, Buffy takes Dawn to Spike, and tells Dawn that this is the safest place for her - safer than with anyone else, including her own home? Why Dawn doesn't throw that in Buffy's face I've no clue.

I'd say it was unintentional or a mistake in the writing, but first of all, the same writer wrote both episodes - David Fury. Also, it does work in regards to Spike's motivation. So I think it is deliberate. It just doesn't work regarding everyone else - it makes them look a bit, shall we say, dim?

Not quite sure what the writers were going for here. Is it that Buffy and her friends sort of got used to S4 Spike - who spontaneously helped them often without any discernible motivation obvious to them, then on a dime would turn on them, again without any discernible motivation obvious to them - that they sort of look at him as a bit like a pet panther? I'm guessing that's it. I don't think they - the gang - sees vampires as being "people" so much as dangerous and evil animals. This would make sense actually - since it is what Giles and the Watcher Council tells them - "that's not a person, that's a demon that has set up shop in the person you once knew, they talk like them, they act like them, they have their personality, but it is not them." When Jesse turns, Xander tries to reach his friend then realizes to his horror that his friend is gone or so he thinks. Jesse contradicts Xander, though, and says no, he just feels alive for the very first time, capable of anything, with no restrictions.
But Giles and Buffy reassure him and say Jesse no longer exists. It's what Buffy tells Ford in Lie to Me. And again to Angel when he returns from a hell dimension after his misdeeds as Angelus in S2. That wasn't you. Even though, Angel tries on more than one occassion to correct her. In Enemies - she begins to realize that maybe, just maybe she's wrong and that
Angelus and Angel are one and the same, Angelus is Angel without the conscience without anything holding him back, without a compass. But he is still Angel. It's an idea that unsettles her and she quickly shrugs it off. In Dopplegangland - Buffy tells Willow that VampWillow isn't anything like her - that's just the demon, Angel steps in and says actually, that's not the case...we...they turn to him, and he quickly backsteps. Never mind.

In season 4 - Riley and the Initiative treat the sub-terrestials like Spike as animals. Supernatural animals. Buffy begins to wonder. Harmony after all is more or less the same.
And she's not sure what to make of Spike. Yet Spike refers to himself as a dog in Pangs - that's right, Spike got neutered, he can't chase the other little puppies around no more.

Later in S5 - in Crush - Xander laughs when she tells him Spike is in love with her. Xander says it's not real - treating it like he might treat a dog's crush or a robot's. Buffy states more or less the same thing to Spike - "you don't have feelings. You can't love without a soul." In her head she's still going by what she has always been taught - vampires are pure demon, not half-human. The human is gone. Sort of like Illyria - except as we know with Illyria this isn't completely true - remanents of Fred exist inside her, affect the demon that she is. Ironically Spike and Wes' memories are acting as Illyria's soul, much as for a while his love for Buffy and the cip acted as Spike's soul. Anyhow, Xander sees it the same way - Spike is a monster. As does Joyce, Willow, and Giles - Spike is a monster. Tara - same deal - he's Quasimodo, bumpy in the forehead, and no moral compass - everything he does is selfishly motivated (actually I hate to tell you this but that is true of 99.4% of the human race last time I checked) - all for the love of a woman who could never love him back. What I found interesting in the exchange between Tara, Willow and Buffy - is Buffy is oblivious to what they are talking about. She didn't read the novel. Only saw the Disney film - where the cute Quasi helps Esmeralda and Esmeralda goes off with the prince, the gargolyles sing, and everyone lives happily ever after. That is not Hugo's story by the way. Quasimodo dies at the end of The Hunchback of Notre Dame (I believe in a fire, can't remember) defying the evil priest master. It's not a happy ending. It's in some regards horrific and tragic. But Buffy is oblivious. She's absorbed in her own issues. Which is in character. Also to be fair, Buffy sort of puts blinders on regarding certain emotional issues that she can't deal with.

When Dru corrects Buffy and tells her, "yes we can love, quite well, just not very wisely" - I doubt Buffy hears her or she may dismiss it because it is Drusilla after all. Buffy sees Spike not as a man, but a monster, a pet monster. That she treats like a man. And that may well be confusing them both. Ever since Spike got the chip, heck before that, ever since Spike helped her defeat Dru and Angelus, their relationship has been confusing - they are supposed to want to kill one another, but they can't. So instead they dance - fighting or verbal banter, constant foreplay, with no clear execution. And as Spike states in Fool For Love, sooner or later, you get tired of the dance.

Buffy is to a degree treating Spike much the same way he treats Harmony. Which is ironic and karmic, in a way. And Spike is pursuing Buffy in some regards in much the same way Harmony pursued Spike. Harmony even states it: "I try and try and try. Do whatever it is you want. What does it take? I thought I could change you, make you love me, play your games, but you just treat me like your dog. You're the dog." It is in a nutshell what Spike does - first with Dru, then with Buffy, Pavlov's Dog - ringing Pavolov's bell, doing whatever it takes to get the cheese - even if it drives him looney in the process.

But Buffy doesn't realize that's what she is doing to him. She doesn't "see" him and that's all he wants. That's all he has ever wanted merely to be seen - it is why he goes crazy. She can't see him as he wishes to be seen. Not quite yet. Because if she does, then that puts into question who she is, what the Watcher Council is, what vampires are, and mostly what Angel/Angelus was. It turns everything she knows upside down and inside out. She's up to this point followed a certain rule or order...and it is at this point that order begins to slowly unravel.

Angelus - Buffy doesn't realize, did love her. It drove him insane. He hated her for it. Still burning from Darla's rejection no doubt. And he wanted to make her pay, turn her into a version of himself, another Drusilla, another of his harem, another mate. Just as Spike's love for her is driving him insane. But the two men are different, with different issues and different demons and different motivations. Angelus seeks out the mother for comfort or to prove something to the father constantly rejecting him, see - I can possess her! an eternal Oedipus Rex - cuckholding his Daddy, while Spike in contrast, seeks out the mother for approval and love, worships at her feet, changes himself for her - plays her knight errant - an eternal Lancelot, or Wickerman, burning for her sake, or killing her if he can't have her. Angelus destroys the world to show his father he is worthy, and kills her - to show his mastery. Spike attempts to bring her into his world, attacks her when he can't, then in shame burns himself to obtain her love and approval - seeks the spark that will burn him whole. They are opposite sides of the mythic coin. One represents the paternal order and the other the maternal. Or one - worships at the feet of a paternal god of the sky, while the other a maternal god of the earth. Note Angel in Amends drifts upwards on the First's urging to be burned by the sky, while Spike in Chosen is burned, in the bowels of the earth.

Spike is beneath and Angel is above. Spike lives in the crypt and the warehouse, and the basement, while Angel above ground in the penthouse, the Hyperion, and the Mansion.
Spike respects Joyce, and Angel respects Giles.

At any rate - I think the reason that Buffy et al don't understand Spike's affection and don't see how she's lead him on or they have, is they don't or rather can't see a vampire without a soul as something other than an animal. An evil animal. A pet dog, on a leash.
Not real. It's not until Season 6 and 7...that they begin to realize how wrong they are and that's when the First starts playing games. It was after all simpler when monsters were just that monsters.

Comments

[curlymynci.livejournal.com]

I always love reading your Buffy meta posts. The observations around the paternal/maternal motivations of Angel and Spike are beautiful. I'm in the middle of a series 5 Angel rewatch and they will bring a little more depth to things. Thanks.

[shapinglight]

What a great piece of meta. I love the contrast you paint between Angel and Spike, which strikes me as very true, and helps explain why Spike's relations with other men are always so prickly.

[quinara]

Angelus - Buffy doesn't realize, did love her. It drove him insane.

After years of reading fic where Buffy angsts about soulless Angelus not loving her, it's a relief to see someone write this...

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

All excellent points. Though I'd never leave my loved ones with something I considered more or less to be a rabid dog, even if he is on a leash. Or a chained serial killer. Or whatever lame metaphor they attempted to apply to Spike, but then would behave in the contrary when it suited them.

I don't think they had amnesia--I just think they were full of hypocritical B.S.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

Hi, here from Sue Herald, but I've been reading your posts before that and even if I don't always agree with their conclusions, I always appreciate their thoughtfulness and insight.

In regard to the subject, the denial of Spike being a person (multiple insults about him being a "thing", Xander arrogantly stating that he had never forgotten what Spike was though accepting him as a babysitter for Dawn...) always struck me as something extremely violent. I do think that the writers intentionnally exploited the gap between the discourses of the characters about Spike and what they were showing about him as a character.

As for vampires being considered as animals, I'm not sure they even attain this dignity in Buffy's eyes : Giles clearly establishes a difference between them and animals in season one and so does Buffy later, stating that animals she likes. On the contrary "Thing" is a word often used in regard to vampires.

[revdorothyl.livejournal.com]

You make a very convincing argument to explain some very contradictory behavior regarding Spike's relationship/not-relationship to Buffy and her family and friends in season 5. Thank you! (That contrast between trusting Spike with her nearest and dearest and then saying she had no relationship with him apart from beating him up had always bothered me.)

Also, excellent point about Angel/Angelus with his father-god obsession and Spike's worship of the mother/earth goddess.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking off and on about your response since I read it at lunch today. The reason, I've been thinking about it is two-fold - 1) your reaction was mine, initially and ... 2) there's something you say in it that applies not just to Buffy analysis but I think to how we relate to one another. A flaw in our thinking, causing I believe many a disagreement. I say it as well in the post above. "If I were Spike, I'd do that too." or in your case - "I'd never leave my loved ones with something I considered more or less a rabid dog.

Here's the thing, how do you know what you would do in this situation? How would I know? Stepping into Buffy's shoes a moment...

Buffy is 20 years of age. She has been fighting monsters since she was 15. Has died at the hands of one. Was deeply in love with one (Angel), before he turned on her after she made love to him. Then he tortured her mentor, killed her teacher, and tried to destroy the world before she stuck a sword through his chest and sent him to hell. This was when he was soulless. Soulless vampires - in Buffy's experience tend to do horrible things. Most have tried to kill her or her friends, including Spike (who spent most of S2, an episode of S3, and three episodes of S4, plus one or two of S5 doing just that). Angel comes back, they try to make it work, he almost kills her in order to live at her urging, so he leaves town - permanently. Her father has left her and her family, with barely a backward glance. Her mother has been ill with a brain tumor, who up until about three episodes ago (say maybe a month or two?) could have died. The sister she believes she always had, turns out to be the key -a ball of energy that can open a nasty portal and is desired by a violent and insane woman who can kill Buffy without breaking a sweat. Her second boyfriend, Riley, who she was in love with and cared for, has taken off for the Jungle on a dangerous mission after delivering an ultimatium and cheating on her with vampire whores. Meanwhile the Watcher's Council (who tried to kill her twice) is in town interrogating her friends and testing her skills. Add to this a bunch of crazy knights with swords. Oh, and there's this vampire in town who up until about a year ago was trying to kill you and all your friends, but he got a nasty chip in his head, rendering him more or less harmless, and for reasons you're not completely certain of - has been helping you on occassion. Granted - it's usually for money or not to get staked. (although you are reluctant to stake someone who can't hurt anyone but a demon. And yes, while it's true he came rather close last year with Adam, he did sort of change sides at the last minute and help you out. He's annoying. Keeps reminding you of your mistakes with Riley and Angel. But, also oddly useful.)

After Glory threatens her, Buffy is beyond desperate. Glory entered her house without so much as a knock and there was nothing Buffy could do. Then Glory leaves. Buffy can't risk taking Dawn to the council meeting - they might figure out she's the key. Buffy can't risk her pals figuring out she's the key.
Plus her pals can hardly handle Glory. I mean at this point, Willow is strong, sure, but a pencil isn't going to kill Glory. Giles? Please. He gets knocked unconscious on a regular basis. Xander? Don't make me laugh. Anya? Ditto. So...where should she hide Mom (newly out of the hospital) and Dawn? Somewhere Glory, the Council and anyone else is unlikely to look? Well, there is Spike. Granted he's evil vampire, but he does seem to have a soft spot for Mom and kid sis. And heck he can take Glory, or he can at least hold her off long enough for Dawn and Mom to make a run for it. If he doesn't - he knows I'll stake him on sight. Not like I have a lot of options here, and it is only for a few hours. Heck when he visited Sunnydale a year or so ago, he had hot coco with Mom.
Won't hurt to try? Right? No time. Must act!

TBC

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I know...

That if I truly believed someone was so inherently evil and manipulative, who would maybe turn my family over to the evil doers at the drop of a dime for money or something, or sell the Slayer's family to the highest bidder, or whatever--someone I just plain didn't trust, that I would absolutely not allow my loved ones to be watched over by such a person (or as Buffy perceived him--"thing") for any amount of time. I would have said, "Mom, pack a bag. We're getting the hell out of this town" like a normal person.

Look, either he can be trusted, or he can't. He can't be trustworthy one week than totally not the next. It's stupid, IMO. You can't leave your mom and kid sis, who love with him for hours, and then freak out and dis-invite him for that (as opposed to the slew of other things that were valid reasons to do such a thing) cause he has a crush and opened a door. That's totally whacked. I only see hypocritical B.S. there.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

This attitude regarding Spike does make sense if you think about what happened previously. Remember the other characters are not privy to what we know about Spike. They are limited to their own pov. And over the years they have been coached by Giles to see anything without a soul as evil. Giles does say that there ambiguous evil and unambiguous evil - but he's not that clear on the topic. Plus the Watcher Council is more or less explicit. They frown on the fact that Buffy seeks anything from Spike or Angel for that matter.

In S4, Spike comes to town to get the gem of amarra and kill Buffy. He gets the gem, doesn't kill her, just fights her, and she defeating him takes it back. He takes off to LA in pursuit of it, tortures Angel, fails to get it, goes back to Sunnydale to kill Buffy once and for all - gets nabbed by the Initiative who puts a behavioral modification chip in his head. He can't hurt any living thing without searing pain. And goes to Buffy of all people for help. Giles convinces her to help him in exchange for information. She'd like to kill him, but he's harmless and that's wrong. Plus he has info on the Initiative.
Then, off and on - he either helps them, or makes their life difficult. If he helps - he usually wants money or it's after they beat him up - so self-preservation. But they get confused, can't say I blame them - and think in a couple of episodes that Spike is on their side or would willingly help, without being coerced - they even ask him politely (New Man, This Years Girl,)- and Spike pointedly reminds them that he is STILL evil and hates them all. It's not until Yoko Factor = when he successfully splits them appart, by button pushing, that they realize trusting this guy too far could be hazardous to one's health. It takes them a while to get it. And I can see why - Spike is erratic - from their pov.

At the end of S2, out of the blue (from Buffy's pov) - he hunts Buffy down and offers to take down Angelus. Next Season - 3, he kidnaps Willow and Xander, but doesn't kill them, to get Willow to do a spell. Buffy doesn't understand what motivates Spike. Also as the series has made clear on more than one occassion - Buffy's not great at figuring out what people are thinking, and tends to think more with her gut than her head. Plus, she's terribly self-absorbed. And, it is a heck of a lot easier for us to see what Riley or Spike are feeling than Buffy.

I also think Spike's actions in CRUSH not only surprise her, but also scare her a bit. She's just lost a human boyfriend that she could eat in the sunshine with, who she could be normal with. And she wishes to have that again. She already did the whole vampire romance deal - and look how well that turned out. She doesn't want to relive it with another vampire - this one soulless to boot. Spike falling in love with her - is a nightmare from Buffy's perspective. Another problem she just does not want to handle. And her friends/Giles also remember Angel, and what a crazed Angelus did, so they probably feel the same way. From their perspective - Spike was safer when he wasn't in love with Buffy. From their perspective - vampire love is twisted obsessive love that destroys. After all, look what happened with Angelus.

And Spike's own actions in CRUSH sort of support that theory : the creepy shrine in his crypt, chaining her up and giving her an ultimatium - either admit you have feelings for me, or I let my ex-girlfriend kill you? And when she turns him down?
Having a fit? And blaming his feelings and craziness on her?
Spike has gone nuts, but not in the same way Angelus did.
But Buffy to be fair, has no way of knowing that for certain.
And before now, she did not know he had a thing for her.

It's easy for us to judge her, since we've got all the information. We're looking at it from the outside, projecting our experience and desires on to it. But I think if we look at it from her limited perspective, based on her experience...it's less simple.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Again, you are looking at it from your own perspective, not Buffy's.

Also, you don't know what you would do in any given situation until it actually happens. There's been studies on this actually, a quite famous study about a bunch of volunteers who swore they'd never willingly torture someone.
And they did. We don't know what we'd do. We think we do. There's a film that handles this issue from a realistic perspective entitled "CRASH" - where a bunch of characters find themselves in situations and acting in ways they never thought they would. Good, wonderful souls - behave abominably.
Nasty people - behave beautifully. I have learned in life, that it is not simple. People don't behave predictably. We do not know what we will do. We can guess. But we don't know.

Buffy is an interesting psychological horror story, with a lot of comedy. The characters are deeply flawed. What I love most about it - is that nice characters do nasty things, and evil characters occassionally do wonderful things. It makes it interesting. And yep, people are hypocritcal. But that's realistic too.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I'm fairly certain though that if that'd been a chipped Angelus and not Spike, that Buffy wouldn't have taken her family over there.

But hey--speculation, yada yada, agree to disagree, yada.

Though I do know for certain that I would not take a family member to be watched over by someone I truly didn't trust. That I know without a shadow of a doubt in my mind. I'm sure there are some who'd waffle on such a thing. I wouldn't ever.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Hee. A good portion of my flist doesn't agree with me on most things, heck that's why they are on my flist. I do fear that I can come across as bit...harsh when I debate with people though. (It's the lawyer in me. Once you go to law school, it stays with you forever...)

Well, I don't really disagree with you. You are correct Xander, Giles, and the others do see vampires without souls as things. Demons. Anya - they aren't quite sure about. And that's when things get tricky for Xander in S7.

But - here, for this analysis (even though it may not quite seem like it) I'm really just dealing with Buffy S5 at the moment, not season 6 - and at this point, they aren't really saying "thing" that much. There's more references to animals. In Crush - they use the dog reference several times. And Riley, in S4, refers to vampires as animals.

Personally? I prefer the "thing" reference better - it's clearer and makes more sense - since animals are living creatures. It also like you state reflects back to the earlier seasons.

Otherwise I agree with you. I think the writers did intentionally exploit that gap between what the characters thought of Spike and what they were showing us. People forget that Xander does not know what we know about Spike. Xander's experience is - Spike tried to kill him at least three times, tossing him aside like candy. When Xander trusted Spike, Spike reminded him he was evil - This Year's Girl, Yoko Factor, CRUSH (steals money from him). I don't think Xander knows how to deal with Spike. Also, Xander can't forget Jesse - who turned into a vampire, or vampWillow...

This catches up with Xander in Selfless - where he realizes it's not so simple. Selfless would have a lot less impact regarding Xander - if he didn't react the way he does to Spike. But it makes sense he does act this way.

I think the characters - Xander, Willow, Giles and Buffy were badly burned by Angelus, Jesse, and to a degree Spike's erratic behavior in Season 4...it's hard for them to see vampires without souls as anything but things. Also, when you are spending most of your time slaying them - it's a bit hard to do it as well. As Buffy states in Conversations with Dead People - she worries about her calling. Is it just? Spike's actions have thrown her for a loop.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh thank you. It always bugged me too.
I sort of figured it out as I was writing the post. So am pleased it was clear.

But the more I think about it - so much of this show is based on whose pov you are in. And since they flip pov's a lot, we forget sometimes that Buffy is not privy to what we are regarding Spike or Riley. Or even Willow. Or Giles. She doesn't know for example that Giles planned on leaving and going back to London before she met up with Dracula. Only Willow knows that. And possibly Xander. She also didn't know that Riley told Xander that he doesn't think she loves him or that Spike thinks she only loves men with a bit of the monster in them.

From Buffy's perspective, Spike is erratic, but harmless. And, well as I was attempting to convince a poster above (I think I failed miserably) - Buffy is desperate in Checkpoint. She can't leave town - Glory would find her. And she can't leave her calling. (She tries to do both actually and Glory and the knights both find her). She doesn't know what to do. There's no one she can turn to. And she is panicing. Spike to his credit has helped before, more than once, and recently without payment. So I can see why she turned to him. But she probably figured that it was no different than any of the other times he'd helped. Plus it is not like they haven't helped him - in Season 4. That's from Buffy's perspective.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well, it is a bit difficult to compare your life to a horror fantasy tv series...;-)

Addressing your point above. Buffy didn't have any options.
She couldn't just leave town - the Watcher Council was interrogating her friends. Glory threatened everyone, not just her family. And Dawn does not know she's the key at this point.
Plus she's panicking. Terrified.

And, add to this, Spike while not exactly trustworthy - I mean not to the point she'd want to have a love affair with at this point, is trustworthy enough to leave her family with - based purely on the following; 1) the end of Fool for Love - where he comforts her regarding her mother, 2) Family - where he weirdly (from her pov) helps Tara, 3) Lover's Walk - where he has hot coco with Joyce. I think on a gut level - she may trust him in that way, but her training, her thoughts, what she knows to be true - says otherwise. He's done weird things, that have caused this gut-level trust to occur. Such as that truce in Becoming. The truce which blew him and Dru apart, oddly developed a sort of weird bond between him and Buffy, which neither seems to understand.

Angelus...different case. Note in S2, Spike goes after Buffy, NOT her friends - when he wants to kill her. He even tells Angelus in Passion - don't go after Giles, this is stupid, you just end up with a brassed off slayer. Kill the girl or don't, but stop playing these dumb games. Angelus - but you don't get it Spike, that lacks poetry. Lacks artistry. Again - in Fool for Love - spike to Angelus - come on, let's have a good fight, while Angelus - says it lacks finesse, artistry. Angelus is obsessed with making monsters, carving up his victims, destroying their minds and raping their souls. Spike just likes to kill, rape, and pillage, not necessarily in that order. Two very different takes on the whole murder thing. As a friend of mine once said - with Spike, I just have to worry about my own life, with Angelus - I'd have to worry about everyone I ever cared about being slaughtered.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

"helps explain why Spike's relations with other men are always so prickly"

As much as I hesitate to say this - I think it also explains why some fans prefer Angel (dislike Spike) and others Spike (dislike Angel), while still others kinda love them both.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I'm saying though...if you trust him with your family, last resort or not (which I still don't think he was. Buffy could have just sent Dawn and Joyce packing on their own and stayed in town to help her friends), then him having a crush shouldn't have been the thing of worry. Or at the very least, warrant a dis-invite. It's silly and inconsistent. And I'm talking pre "Dru makes herself known, and wacky vampire shenanigans follow" thing. In fact, him having a crush would essentially solidify him more on her side than anything, which is what she wants, since she goes to him whenever she's in a lurch anyway.

Yeah, it just makes the sense that isn't to me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

More than one person has actually come up with it. I remember first seeing the analysis way back in 2002 on the ATPO board by a poster name Angelus - who argued beautifully that Angelus clearly did love Buffy and hated himself for it, it's the love that drove him bonkers. Saw it again by another lj poster - who was writing a series of posts entitled "Angelus's Day Planner" - I can't remember the lj user's name unfortunately.
But she provides details. Demonstrating that all of Angelus' actions after he loses his soul - are about Buffy - and making Buffy his, much as he made Drusilla his. If he didn't love her, he'd have killed her without much thought or just left town with Spike and Dru in tow.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Also, I'm not sure how this even started--my first comment was to agree with you :P

[shapinglight]

Yes, agreed. I'm in the third camp myself, though I have a bias towards Spike because he's the underdog and Angel never lets him forget it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm in the third camp myself, though I have a bias towards Spike because he's the underdog and Angel never lets him forget it.

So am I, more or less. I like Angel, I do. And I sort of liked him and Buffy together, when I was supposed to - ie S1-2.. I just prefer Spike. A lot of people hate one and love the other. Me? I tend to just prefer one a lot more.

I really, really, enjoy the two together. I could have happily watched three seasons of the Spike/Angel show if the WB and Whedon chose to give it to me. But alas, they did not. Those wankers. ;-) At least Brian Lynch gives me a little of it here and there.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, well, as I stated in my first response - something you said struck a chord. It's the whole - "well, that's not what I would have done" bit. I've been noticing lately - that we tend to judge what others do based on what we think we would do in a similar sitch.
Ex: I severly sprained my ankle in Feb of this year.
Every time I tell anyone - they proceed to tell me what they would do if they were me and what I'm doing wrong. When the truth is they haven't a clue why I sprained it, how it was sprained, my insurance sitch, etc.

So, what I was responding to...was something I realized I'd been doing with the show as well - with drama in general. Another ex: In Crush - it never made any sense to me why Buffy decides to go into the basement of Spike's crypt hunting for him. She obviously hasn't been down there before. I wouldn't do that - you don't know what you'll find. You could get yourself into trouble. I even stated aloud - are you crazy, why would you go into the lower reachs of his crypt/lair??

But it occurred to me - when I read your response, that this is not really that different than someone looking at my ankle and saying well - if I were you I'd handle it this way and you are wrong. I'm not a slayer. I haven't killed vamps. I haven't fought a big snake. And I don't go into graveyards every night by myself, knowing any night now, some nasty thing could very well kill me. She has a dangerous profession - so is somewhat fearless. She sees herself as more powerful than Spike. He is, in her eyes, beneath her literally and figuratively. He's not something she is afraid of - she's fought worse monsters. Glory on the other hand scares her a bit.

So, while we'd be scared, Buffy wouldn't. Buffy would think nothing of going down into that crypt. And while we'd look at the idea of putting loved one's with Spike as insane - Buffy wouldn't. Her friends would. Giles would. But Buffy...comes at things differently, because of what she does each night. I don't think we can possibly understand her - unless well we were firemen or soliders, and even then, unlikely.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

Well about the importance of POV and how they can be totally inadequate, there's a very telling little scene in Out of my Mind in regard to Buffy's POV about Spike : she's with the group and complains about how Spike is seriously bugging her, to what Willow replies he effectively is extra twitchy these days due to the non killing, Buffy concluding "And hanging out in that moldy crypt all day, you just know (know is underlined in the shooting script) he's doing something nasty." The scene then cut to the crypt in question to show Spike and Harmony playing twenty questions... I don't know how they could have showed more clearly that Buffy, contrarily to what she thinks, doesn't have any real clues about what or who Spike is.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Completely agree. The writer's play with it alot, half of the humor in the series - is based on how the character's perspective clashes with what is real.

Buffy per example sees Ben as wholesome, good natured, a great guy to date. As does everyone. They can't see behind the veil. They can't see what and who Ben truly is. Another, good example is in Forever, which I just watched last night - Xander, Willow and Dawn all assume that Spike cares nothing about Joyce and is just trying to shag Buffy. When he approachs the house with flowers, Xander slamns him for using this tragedy to get close to Buffy - no matter what Spike tells him to the contrary. It's not until Spike leaves, dropping the wildflowers he'd brought, that Willow notices there was no card. No way Buffy would know he'd been there. And Dawn assumes he's helping her either to get good with Buffy or something, but it has zip to do with Buffy really, he in fact tells her not to tell Buffy. We don't learn why he's doing it until LTMP. But no one knows that.

Most of the characters mistakes come from assumptions they've made about other characters or events, without the correct information.

[shapinglight]

At least Brian Lynch gives me a little of it here and there.

Yes, we Spangel 'shippers have to take what we can get really. Sorry for belated reply.