PSA to Fanfic Writers

[shadowkat]

Okay, I posted about this on fandom lawyers and have decided to make the fanfic writers on my flist aware of it as well [ETA - after posting this, leaving to run errands, came back to a huge number of responses from fandom_lawyers, who did not respond to the post in the way I'd expected, they were defending doctor_beth2000. Anyhow, my initial take on this appears to be in error, I thought what doctor_beth was doing was illegal. It's not. Please go to fandom lawyers for more info and before posting alerts in your own journals.]

"If you are a Fanfic writer or Artist please go to this ebay site doctor_beth2000 and check to see if YOUR fanworks or someones you know and like are being sold as Fanzines for profit in what appears to be a very lucrative and active operation. One Fanficwriter found their work listed for sale, and it has now been pulled, but it looks like everything doctor_beth2000 is selling is stolen, printed and put in a cheap binder with fanart without the knowledge or permission of the writer or artist. [ETA: see fandom lawyers - apparently you only need to worry if you submitted your fanfic for publication in a fanzine.]"

According to what I've read from people who have visited the site - there are over 700 stories being offered for sale [ETA: originally published in fanzines]. They are from Star Trek, LiRO, Buffy, Star Gate, Doctor Who, Angel, etc.

If you write fanfic? [ETA: that has been published in fanzines only.] Go there. And check.

It is, in case you are at all curious, illegal. This is a clear violation of copyright law on several levels. But I've been out of the field for a bit so am not privy to the current laws. I know their are loop holes under Fair Use. But this is not one of them. While it is permitted to create a fanzine and to sell one, you have to get permission from the owners of the work first. IF you do not, then you are in violation of Copyright Law.[This is wrong.]

ETA: Posted from a reply below from morgandawn of fandom_lawyers. By the way - if you have a question regarding copyright law or how legal questions about fandom related issues - do try fandom lawyers. They tend to be reliable and are fairly up to date on copyright laws.

Looking at what she's selling she does not appear to be selling material printed off the Net - just fanzines. So you may want to clarify in the places you've posted your alert that unless the writer has submitted a story to be published in a fanzine there is little risk of their online material being sold (but it can't hurt to suggest to fans that they set up an eBay alert if they're worried about their online fic being sold). No need to raise the alarm for the rest of online fandom. :-)

To clarify - there is no legal requirement for anyone to get permission from the original fanzine writers or publishers to resell a fanzine - in person, at a convention or on eBay. Reselling copies is not permitted.
Look here for a discussion of resale rights (First Sale)
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/you-can-book-victory-resale-rights-521[It really is no different than if I sold a book or a bunch of comics on ebay. It is permissible.]

Whether we fans need to get permission from the original copyright holders to publish and sell fanzines in the first place - that falls under the same set of questions that all fans face when writing and posting fan fiction. Fan fiction and fanzines are both IMHO fair use of copyright. Fanzines have been made and sold (and resold) for the past 30 years. What is happening on eBay is no different - just more visible.

Now whether reselling fanzines on eBay (as opposed in fan safe spaces like we've been doing for the past 30 years) is wise is another question.

For the rest of the discussion - go here:

http://community.livejournal.com/fandom_lawyers/75585.html

And for a better explanation of the above post by morgandawn go to her dreamwidth site -
here:

http://morgandawn.dreamwidth.org/1007188.html

Again, this is an excellent site for fandom related legal issues. But, also, pay close attention to disclaimers.

My apologies for the misinformation. I should have waited until I received a reply from fandomlawyers - before posting it in my journal.

Comments

Reposting here in repsonse to your post on fandom lawyers

[morgandawn.livejournal.com]

Looking at what she's selling she does not appear to be selling material printed off the Net - just fanzines. So you may want to clarify in the places you've posted your alert that unless the writer has submitted a story to be published in a fanzine there is little risk of their online material being sold (but it can't hurt to suggest to fans that they set up an eBay alert if they're worried about their online fic being sold). No need to raise the alarm for the rest of online fandom. :-)

To clarify - there is no legal requirement for anyone to get permission from the original fanzine writers or publishers to resell a fanzine - in person, at a convention or on eBay. Reselling copies is not permitted.
Look here for a discussion of resale rights (First Sale)
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/you-can-book-victory-resale-rights-521

Whether we fans need to get permission from the original copyright holders to publish and sell fanzines in the first place - that falls under the same set of questions that all fans face when writing and posting fan fiction. Fan fiction and fanzines are both IMHO fair use of copyright. Fanzines have been made and sold (and resold) for the past 30 years. What is happening on eBay is no different - just more visible.

Now whether reselling fanzines on eBay (as opposed in fan safe spaces like we've been doing for the past 30 years) is wise is another question.

Re: Reposting here in repsonse to your post on fandom lawyers

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this reply and for taking the time to make sure that the two places in which it was discussed, my journal and the other one - received the clarification.

My initial instinct to post it to fandom_lawyers appears to have paid off.

Re: Reposting here in repsonse to your post on fandom lawyers

[morgandawn.livejournal.com]

I love fandom lawyers. And thanks for clarifying the original post. if you do ever find someone selling fan fic they pulled off the net without permission, raise the red flag.

Re: Reposting here in repsonse to your post on fandom lawyers

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, I sort of thought I had. Because the information I got stated that someone was pulling fanfic off the net, putting them into fanzines and selling them. I did not know that the fanzines were previously published, the fanfic contained within was submitted to the fanzine. And all they were doing was selling their collection of fanzines. My mistake was taking someone else's word for it and not investigating the site - one of the problems with the internet is we have a tendency to believe the information that we read on it. My source is usually reliable in this regard, and I'm guessing their source is usually reliable as well. But we are all human and make mistakes.

But, that said, I was somewhat skeptical, so checked fandom_lawyers - and posted when I realized no one else had mentioned it. It's an excellent resource for fandom legal issues, although as stated above and on the site, one should not use it for personal legal advice.

Re: Reposting here in repsonse to your post on fandom lawyers

[morgandawn.livejournal.com]

nods. Some fans do self-publish - or make personal bound copies of their favorite authors. They usually do this without permission - printing out fan fic and putting them into binders or comb binding them. If one of those copies were to end up on eBay I could understand the writer's concerns. but to be fair, the original writers and artists and publishers never expected their fanzines to be sold in such a public manner (in spite of their expectation that their fic/art was going to be 'published' and sold (and resold).

I do note that the larger store front sellers take care not to use author names in their listings.

Re: Reposting here in repsonse to your post on fandom lawyers

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

"printing out fan fic and putting them into binders or combo binding them" - yes, that was what I thought they were doing from the post I read on it.

But reselling your old copies is different. It's not unlike someone selling a book they bought in a bookstore on ebay - granted you are not really supposed to do it. But people do. And copyright law more or less allows it depending on the situation.

Here, I think we have an interesting situation - in that the original writers of the fanfic - had only intended their fic to be in a fanzine, sold in a sort of underground manner or traded at conventions or privately amongst fans. To be sold on ebay, while not exactly like Amazon or say Barnes and Noble, it is a public forum and is considered "commericial". This could expose the fanfic writer to the not so friendly eyes of the original copyright holder.

This also reminds me of a post I read a long time ago and only have a vague memory of - where someone decided to publish a book of fan essays without asking permission. There was a huge uproar and I think it got pulled, but can't quite remember.

Re: Reposting here in repsonse to your post on fandom lawyers

[morgandawn.livejournal.com]

we have identified one - if not 2 fanzines that may have been created without the author's permission. I lazily point you back to my original post for more details. doctor beth says she bought a large lot at mediawest and had no way of distinguishing between legit and non-legit copies.

Re: Reposting here in repsonse to your post on fandom lawyers

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Interesting.

I've finding your posts on this topic fascinating.

Out of curiousity? Do you work or have you worked in copyright law?
I used to, but it was over 6 years ago and I've deliberately forgotten most of it. ;-)

Re: Reposting here in repsonse to your post on fandom lawyers

[morgandawn.livejournal.com]

like you, my active participation in IP practice ended a few years back when I became disabled. one of the reasons I volunteer on the vidding newsletter is that it allows me to keep in touch with IP issues.

but for anything more significant than 'IMHO" I send people over to the real lawyers.:-) they're always happen to correct me when I get it wrong.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

fandom is so complicated.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

OOoh, I love your icon.

And you ain't kidding. Actually so is copyright law since the internet evolved. When I was involved in the field, until I wisely changed careers - the copyright attorneys could not figure out which way was up. I was on two copyright listserves - one with the ALA - American Libary Association and the other with the Intellectual Property and Copyright Attorneys. They often contradicted each other.

As far as I can figure the consensus is if your fic is published without permission, regardless of what type of fic it is - that is a violation of copyright.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I love that icon (above) too... it was made by Lexigeek during Fox's huge crack down a few years ago....

And copyright law is mystifying... when I worked for the Senate Judiciary committee in the early 1980s the TV & movie industry were trying to put a stop to VCRs, but the committee felt that just like recording audio cassettes off the radio, the technology was already 'out there' and recording to share and enjoy later was 'fair use'. But then soon after that all these FBI warnings started being stamped all over everything... but no laws were ever passed empowering the FBI to do anything of the stuff they threatened to do.... It is all very confusing. I wonder if there were court cases which went beyond the intent of Congress, or what.