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shadowkatSo, I'm back in Brooklyn, more or less. Got back on Sat. Took Monday off, and I'm glad I did.
Gave me time to get my house in order. Also picked up the latest comics, finished Connie Willis' Doomsday Book, and watched the latest episode of Dollhouse as well as my netflix of The Incredible Hulk.
Regarding the comics: picked up Bill Willingham's Angel, Issue 28 (out of curiousity), Lynch's Last Angel in Hell (aka what Hollywood would have done with a film version of the Lynch Angel comic - also out of curiousity), and Buffy S8, issue 31, The Willow One-Shot by Whedon.
Have only read the Willingham to date. And, a lot of other reviews regarding it - one by ComicsForum (who liked it a lot more than I did, but then I think the reviewer may actually be Connor's age, which would make sense - this is clearly written and marketed for a young male demographic),![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
flake_sake, and shapinglight (who liked it more than I did, but less than ComicsForum - at least I think it was comics forum.)
First off, I'm not anal about a lot of things, actually fairly flexible - or I wouldn't watch or read half the things that I do. Ecletic tastes, big time. Also when it comes to adaptations of stories from one medium to another, I sort of go with the flow. Same deal with fanfic.
But, there are a few things that I require in an adaptation, fanfiction or derivative work of an original:
1. characters should be recognizable - if they aren't, I start wondering why the person didn't write a story with brand new characters.
2. the characters should be explored in a new and interesting way - tell me something I could not find out by just rewatching the series, some new angle, new point of view, otherwise this is a waste of my time. Especially since the series probably did it better the first time around.
3. If you have decided to continue a story from the original series, book or work and you are calling your story a continuation of that one, and stating that it is a continuation of those characters based on the original canon and canonical to that story - continuity is important.
(Granted some flexibility must be allowed here - since each writer may view what happened before differently. I've seen and read too many serials that have changed writing teams too many times, not to be somewhat flexible in this regard. And, my memory is far from perfect. But, you should stick at least to a degree with what happened in the original, and you might want to make sure you've read or seen all of the original before writing. Because your audience has done so and will pick up on inconsistencies that take them out of the story. ETA: Note to Willingham and future Angel writers as well as IDW? You might want to take the time to actually watch the full series of Angel and Buffy, as well as read the comics that came before before attempting to write a new chapter in it - just saying. (Willingham apparently just read the comics, and watched part of the Angel TV series and the early seasons of Buffy.))
If you feel the same way that I do about the above three items? I'm guessing you are going to have problems with Willingham's take on Angel.
The good news? Denham's art is not bad. Better than Stephen Mooney's at any rate, but that's not hard. The characters are more or less recognizable - except the role of Connor is now being played by the son of Vincent Karthesier and Fabio or a photoshop of Vicent Karthesier with Fabio's body. Illyria looks like she's been replaced by a robot. And Spike looks like he did in S2. The long-legged female warriors that aid Connor, did not bug me - but then I more or less have the same body type (well, I would, if I lost 100 pounds, worked out a lot more, and wasn't high waisted. Also this is admittedly why I liked comic books - they have tall, big busted, strong women - as opposed to short, no bust, tiny women. Sigh. Why is it that men draw this as their ideal, yet they always seem to go for petit women with short legs and no bust? You say you want Sigourney Weaver and Julia Child, yet you keep marring Sarah Michelle Gellar and Paula Deen, what's up with that? Just asking.) Don't like the framing (the boxes and the order of the boxes) - it's jagged and hard to follow. Reminiscent of my issues with Fables. The faces are almost too smooth and have that weird plastic/mannican photo quality - that seems to be a problem with a lot of the Angel books.
Also Connor, more or less sounds like Connor. So does Angel for that matter. I'm guessing these are the writer's (Willingham's favorite characters)? Because they appear to be the only one's he's spent any effort whatsoever in getting right vocal wise. Or spent much time with as far as back story. Or has any interest in developing. The rest? Are just there for either comic relief or exposition. Say what you will about Espenson's Retreat in Buffy S8, at least her characters sounded like they should and were recognizable and had some purpose outside of regaling the lead.
Before reading this comic, based purely on the reviews I'd read, I thought - oh, Connor fans will love this. And was intending on sending it to an avid Connor fan on my flist. Now, that I've read it....
1. This is not Connor. I'm sorry, Connor would not be happy about his memories of the hell dimension. Plus, he had a different first name while raised by Holtz. He was called Steven. Willingham has that bit wrong. And it is important to the character's backgroung, because Steven was Holtz's son's name - the son that Angelus killed. I'm fairly ambivalent about Connor and even I know that.
2. Connor is way too self-assured, confident, and together...considering he died, has gotten nasty memories back, and has multiple families.
3. Connor is bland. He reads like a young wet behind the ears Luke Skywalker, hero-worshipping his Dad. Makes me want to lock Willingham in a room with a set of Harry Potter books, specifically the later ones, or Season 4 of Angel, or Empire Strikes Back.
As for the other characters? Where to begin..
Spike - well, he doesn't sound like Spike. Also, a quick hint - you know there are major problems with the plot when the story a subsidiary character is telling, that everyone is pointedly ignoring, is funnier and far more innovative and entertaining than anything else in the comic. A story that has no pictures, and you have to read around other dialogue to boot.
Spike is not developed at all. And the story he is telling, while interesting, doesn't really pertain to anything. I'm not quite sure why Willingham bothered to include him. Comic relief?
If so, it didn't work for me - if anything it just underlined the lameness of the rest of this story.
Illyria - she sounds like a robot. Again, not sure why Willingham bothered.
Gunn - (I'm guessing the whole Gunn struggling with his issues thing was neatly wrapped up in Only Human - which I skipped?) At any rate, he is acting like Gunn from S4.
Kate - is possibly the only one that sounds like Kate. Leading me to believe that Willingham watched up to S3, skipped most of S4, and watched only portions of S5 Angel?
Betta George - sounds more or less like himself, really barely seen.
I have no idea who the other two characters are or why they are in this story. Apparently they are held over from the abysmal Aftermath, written by gothic romance writer, Kelly Armstrong. (Why IDW chose to have a gothic romance writer write a bunch of horror/noir comic books aimed at a predominately young male demographic is beyond me, but whatever.) The former "angel" as in Angel of the Wings and Harp variety - seems out of place in this verse. And sounds a lot like Groo, making me wonder why Willingham didn't just use Groo instead. Groo and Gwen would have made more sense.
The plot? I pondered where I'd read this plot set-up before, I'm guessing Moonlight? Although it may also have been in Charlain Harris' Sookie Stackhouse novels. At any rate, I know what is going to happen, where we're going, and I'm bored already. The whole stealing a vampire's blood to sire new vamps or forcing him to sire new vamps has been done before. Granted it has potential. And Angel's voiceover concerning it has got to be the funniest part of the comic.
It's the only part that made me smile - the end comment, "I'm so bored". (Not, oh god, look at what they are doing, just I'm bored.) So the good news is Willingham does sort of get Angel or Angel's voice at any rate. But since I don't find what he's doing with Angel all that interesting...
Angel is an odd character. He can be quite interesting. The set-up for him certainly is - he's a guy who more or less chose to be evil, who went hunting evil, who fully embraced evil, loved it, loved doing it, loved being a demon, and has been forced or cursed with guilt.
Overwhelming guilt. And the guilt is motivating him to do good. That's his main motivation - guilt. Fascinating premise. But so far the only people who have explored it are David Fury, Joss Whedon, Jeff Bell, and Tim Minear. Everyone else treats him as your run of the mill Nick Night from Forever Knight, the beleaguered hero who is making up for past sins. Instead of exploring the anti-hero bits that made him interesting, they have made the character somewhat one-dimensional or maybe two-dimensional - a bargain basement Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, mostly Jekyll. And I hate to say it, but Robert Louis Stevenson did a better job.
Same deal with Connor - Connor is rather interesting, but not written as some promised one aka Harry Potter. I found him more interesting when he echoed Angel's Daddy issues.
There's another comic at the back of this one - which unlike this comic, actually does take place in the noirverse and actually does feature a complex and interesting character, who I don't remember. Eddie Hope. I'm guessing he's interesting - because he's new and before now, not really developed. Williams can do what he wants with him. And it would be intriguing to see how this character deals with Gunn or Illyria - since he's going after everyone who did bad things while in Hell LA. That storyline has a complexity that the other one doesn't.
It also, to a degree, comments on Angel's brand of vigilante justice. But, I don't recommend buying the comic solely for it. It's brief and well, I've seen it done elsewhere far better - Dark Knight, V for Vendetta, and several Frank Miller comics come to mind.
Overall? Not worth the money in my opinion. Won't be buying any more of this arc, that's for certain.
Rating? Willingham's? D-
Williams-"Eddie Hope", C+/B-
Gave me time to get my house in order. Also picked up the latest comics, finished Connie Willis' Doomsday Book, and watched the latest episode of Dollhouse as well as my netflix of The Incredible Hulk.
Regarding the comics: picked up Bill Willingham's Angel, Issue 28 (out of curiousity), Lynch's Last Angel in Hell (aka what Hollywood would have done with a film version of the Lynch Angel comic - also out of curiousity), and Buffy S8, issue 31, The Willow One-Shot by Whedon.
Have only read the Willingham to date. And, a lot of other reviews regarding it - one by ComicsForum (who liked it a lot more than I did, but then I think the reviewer may actually be Connor's age, which would make sense - this is clearly written and marketed for a young male demographic),
flake_sake, and shapinglight (who liked it more than I did, but less than ComicsForum - at least I think it was comics forum.)First off, I'm not anal about a lot of things, actually fairly flexible - or I wouldn't watch or read half the things that I do. Ecletic tastes, big time. Also when it comes to adaptations of stories from one medium to another, I sort of go with the flow. Same deal with fanfic.
But, there are a few things that I require in an adaptation, fanfiction or derivative work of an original:
1. characters should be recognizable - if they aren't, I start wondering why the person didn't write a story with brand new characters.
2. the characters should be explored in a new and interesting way - tell me something I could not find out by just rewatching the series, some new angle, new point of view, otherwise this is a waste of my time. Especially since the series probably did it better the first time around.
3. If you have decided to continue a story from the original series, book or work and you are calling your story a continuation of that one, and stating that it is a continuation of those characters based on the original canon and canonical to that story - continuity is important.
(Granted some flexibility must be allowed here - since each writer may view what happened before differently. I've seen and read too many serials that have changed writing teams too many times, not to be somewhat flexible in this regard. And, my memory is far from perfect. But, you should stick at least to a degree with what happened in the original, and you might want to make sure you've read or seen all of the original before writing. Because your audience has done so and will pick up on inconsistencies that take them out of the story. ETA: Note to Willingham and future Angel writers as well as IDW? You might want to take the time to actually watch the full series of Angel and Buffy, as well as read the comics that came before before attempting to write a new chapter in it - just saying. (Willingham apparently just read the comics, and watched part of the Angel TV series and the early seasons of Buffy.))
If you feel the same way that I do about the above three items? I'm guessing you are going to have problems with Willingham's take on Angel.
The good news? Denham's art is not bad. Better than Stephen Mooney's at any rate, but that's not hard. The characters are more or less recognizable - except the role of Connor is now being played by the son of Vincent Karthesier and Fabio or a photoshop of Vicent Karthesier with Fabio's body. Illyria looks like she's been replaced by a robot. And Spike looks like he did in S2. The long-legged female warriors that aid Connor, did not bug me - but then I more or less have the same body type (well, I would, if I lost 100 pounds, worked out a lot more, and wasn't high waisted. Also this is admittedly why I liked comic books - they have tall, big busted, strong women - as opposed to short, no bust, tiny women. Sigh. Why is it that men draw this as their ideal, yet they always seem to go for petit women with short legs and no bust? You say you want Sigourney Weaver and Julia Child, yet you keep marring Sarah Michelle Gellar and Paula Deen, what's up with that? Just asking.) Don't like the framing (the boxes and the order of the boxes) - it's jagged and hard to follow. Reminiscent of my issues with Fables. The faces are almost too smooth and have that weird plastic/mannican photo quality - that seems to be a problem with a lot of the Angel books.
Also Connor, more or less sounds like Connor. So does Angel for that matter. I'm guessing these are the writer's (Willingham's favorite characters)? Because they appear to be the only one's he's spent any effort whatsoever in getting right vocal wise. Or spent much time with as far as back story. Or has any interest in developing. The rest? Are just there for either comic relief or exposition. Say what you will about Espenson's Retreat in Buffy S8, at least her characters sounded like they should and were recognizable and had some purpose outside of regaling the lead.
Before reading this comic, based purely on the reviews I'd read, I thought - oh, Connor fans will love this. And was intending on sending it to an avid Connor fan on my flist. Now, that I've read it....
1. This is not Connor. I'm sorry, Connor would not be happy about his memories of the hell dimension. Plus, he had a different first name while raised by Holtz. He was called Steven. Willingham has that bit wrong. And it is important to the character's backgroung, because Steven was Holtz's son's name - the son that Angelus killed. I'm fairly ambivalent about Connor and even I know that.
2. Connor is way too self-assured, confident, and together...considering he died, has gotten nasty memories back, and has multiple families.
3. Connor is bland. He reads like a young wet behind the ears Luke Skywalker, hero-worshipping his Dad. Makes me want to lock Willingham in a room with a set of Harry Potter books, specifically the later ones, or Season 4 of Angel, or Empire Strikes Back.
As for the other characters? Where to begin..
Spike - well, he doesn't sound like Spike. Also, a quick hint - you know there are major problems with the plot when the story a subsidiary character is telling, that everyone is pointedly ignoring, is funnier and far more innovative and entertaining than anything else in the comic. A story that has no pictures, and you have to read around other dialogue to boot.
Spike is not developed at all. And the story he is telling, while interesting, doesn't really pertain to anything. I'm not quite sure why Willingham bothered to include him. Comic relief?
If so, it didn't work for me - if anything it just underlined the lameness of the rest of this story.
Illyria - she sounds like a robot. Again, not sure why Willingham bothered.
Gunn - (I'm guessing the whole Gunn struggling with his issues thing was neatly wrapped up in Only Human - which I skipped?) At any rate, he is acting like Gunn from S4.
Kate - is possibly the only one that sounds like Kate. Leading me to believe that Willingham watched up to S3, skipped most of S4, and watched only portions of S5 Angel?
Betta George - sounds more or less like himself, really barely seen.
I have no idea who the other two characters are or why they are in this story. Apparently they are held over from the abysmal Aftermath, written by gothic romance writer, Kelly Armstrong. (Why IDW chose to have a gothic romance writer write a bunch of horror/noir comic books aimed at a predominately young male demographic is beyond me, but whatever.) The former "angel" as in Angel of the Wings and Harp variety - seems out of place in this verse. And sounds a lot like Groo, making me wonder why Willingham didn't just use Groo instead. Groo and Gwen would have made more sense.
The plot? I pondered where I'd read this plot set-up before, I'm guessing Moonlight? Although it may also have been in Charlain Harris' Sookie Stackhouse novels. At any rate, I know what is going to happen, where we're going, and I'm bored already. The whole stealing a vampire's blood to sire new vamps or forcing him to sire new vamps has been done before. Granted it has potential. And Angel's voiceover concerning it has got to be the funniest part of the comic.
It's the only part that made me smile - the end comment, "I'm so bored". (Not, oh god, look at what they are doing, just I'm bored.) So the good news is Willingham does sort of get Angel or Angel's voice at any rate. But since I don't find what he's doing with Angel all that interesting...
Angel is an odd character. He can be quite interesting. The set-up for him certainly is - he's a guy who more or less chose to be evil, who went hunting evil, who fully embraced evil, loved it, loved doing it, loved being a demon, and has been forced or cursed with guilt.
Overwhelming guilt. And the guilt is motivating him to do good. That's his main motivation - guilt. Fascinating premise. But so far the only people who have explored it are David Fury, Joss Whedon, Jeff Bell, and Tim Minear. Everyone else treats him as your run of the mill Nick Night from Forever Knight, the beleaguered hero who is making up for past sins. Instead of exploring the anti-hero bits that made him interesting, they have made the character somewhat one-dimensional or maybe two-dimensional - a bargain basement Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, mostly Jekyll. And I hate to say it, but Robert Louis Stevenson did a better job.
Same deal with Connor - Connor is rather interesting, but not written as some promised one aka Harry Potter. I found him more interesting when he echoed Angel's Daddy issues.
There's another comic at the back of this one - which unlike this comic, actually does take place in the noirverse and actually does feature a complex and interesting character, who I don't remember. Eddie Hope. I'm guessing he's interesting - because he's new and before now, not really developed. Williams can do what he wants with him. And it would be intriguing to see how this character deals with Gunn or Illyria - since he's going after everyone who did bad things while in Hell LA. That storyline has a complexity that the other one doesn't.
It also, to a degree, comments on Angel's brand of vigilante justice. But, I don't recommend buying the comic solely for it. It's brief and well, I've seen it done elsewhere far better - Dark Knight, V for Vendetta, and several Frank Miller comics come to mind.
Overall? Not worth the money in my opinion. Won't be buying any more of this arc, that's for certain.
Rating? Willingham's? D-
Williams-"Eddie Hope", C+/B-
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no subject
Date: 2009-12-29 01:16 pm (UTC)1. characters should be recognizable - if they aren't, I start wondering why the person didn't write a story with brand new characters.
Amen. People may do as they please with fanfic, I don't care. I won't read it, but I realy don't care. But professionally published material and films are a different matter. I'm tired of the trend that publishers and producers are such cowards they agree to shoe-horn any story that comes along into old franchises, no matter how incompatible it may be with the original characters and ideas. It isn't clever and it is an insult to the original creators. If a story is good enough to sell, then let it be with a set of characters of its own, not with names stolen from or simply used out of laziness from something else simply to make a quick profit.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-29 05:25 pm (UTC)When you are being paid and people are actually buying your work...it's another story.
It annoys me that Willingham admittedly did not watch all of Angel the Series or Buffy (the TV Series) before writing the next chapter of the Angel comics. Especially when fanfic writers do watch the whole series and when they don't, they state that the comic is AU after a certain point. IDW is stating that the comic is canon, and follows directly from the series and comics that came before it. That's misleading, because it clearly doesn't. A popular/fan fav writer is clearly just shoe-horning a bunch of characters from two popular cult tv series, which he didn't take the time to watch all of, into a story for a quick buck. (And yes, you can tell.)
no subject
Date: 2009-12-29 03:58 pm (UTC)But the character I think Willingham would be most likely to badly screw up would be Darla, so I hope there aren't any flashbacks coming up.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-29 05:08 pm (UTC)Just her head and chest and part of her waist and I think in one group panel - her back. (don't have the comic in front of me, so this is from memory). She appears to be wearing a yellowish t-shirt and brown pants, much like Elizabeth Roehm did in the tv series. She also looks a bit like Roehm(sp?) or more like her than any of the other artist renderings to date. And she sounded like Kate. (One of the few voices, Willingham got right - granted Kate's not that hard to pull off, minor characters tend to be easier.)
Her dialogue reminds me a bit of Kate S2 and Cordy S1 or 2. She's basically telling the gang that they shouldn't worry too much about Angel (who hasn't shown up in a while) - because he's most likely following some new girl, constantly explaining to her how they can never be together. (Which reminded me of something Cordelia might have said.) My guess is IDW added Kate as a substitute for Cordy.