![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatSo, after the Twilight spoiler...where Allie and others are suggesting that Twilight isn't really a villian or big bad, and that he is redeemable. I went back and re-read the issue where Buffy and Twilight fight, and Twilight critically injures Satsu - putting her in the hospital. I was curious to see if it was possible to redeem Twilight or see Twilight in a positive light, without sending an anti-feminist and sexist, not to mention misogynistic message. I don't believe it is, but I'm open to other views on this score.
Buffy to Satsu: People who love me tend to oh, die...maybe go to a hell dimension, or burn up, or they start letting vamps suck on em and they leave, they all leave, even my friends, sooner or later everybody realizes there's something wrong...something wrong with me, or around me, or... Wow. Did not mean to end up there. (she's crying).
Twilight then throws a boulder at her. And she's bleeding from the nose, injured.
Twilight: The Chosen One Always in Pain...and always complaining. Just like a girl. (This is where he critically injurs Satsu, by breaking her nose, then kicking her into a stone crypt two feet or more away.)
[Buffy goes to slice up the center with the Scythe]
Twilight: I know that move slayer. Le me show you some of mine. (He takes her by the scruff of her shirt in front and pulls her skyward, they are flying.) Understand this girl. You cannot fight me.
Buffy: Understand this ass-clown - I probably will anyway. (she puts the scythe in choke-hold around his neck).
Twilight : I'd expect no less. But I watched you and the witch - it seemed you didn't like flying.
Buffy: I get used to things real fast.
Twilight: Very well then, let's ride. Do you know that I actually came here to talk? (he crashes her into a church) But there you were ...going on about how hard it is for you, and well..I just hate to see you cry. (he is about to stab her with church steeple)
Buffy: Go ahead. Church me. Plenty more where that came from.
Twilight: Well that's the issue isn't it? One Slayer. Was all right. But all these girls...the world can't contain them and they will suffer for that. I'll not kill you now. My first gift is my last. I know that you meant well. But you have brought about disaster. And it falls to me to avert it.
Buffy: Twilight. That's you.
Twilight: Have you made a difference? Have your slayers helped change anything in this world?
Have they helped you?
Twilight to his subordinates/army comrades who have asked why he didn't kill her: That's been done. To Little Effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armor...her moral certainity. However hapless she may be about her personal life. This girl has always firmly believes she was on the side of right. And there's one thing I've learned about the slayer...
Meanwhile Buffy is comforting Satsu, and has taken Satsu to the hospital. Both women are covered in bandages. Satsu feels she's failed Buffy in some way, but Buffy reassures her and gives her strength. Then she has the following discussion with Xander...asking him Twilight's questions:
Buffy: Are we doing any good? We've been fighting more demons, but...but it just seems like there's more demons to fight and what is that because of us?
Xander: Buffy, turn around. I live with a bunch of slayers. Dozens of girls who are so filled up with purpose, with confidence they didn't have before...the walls are vibrating with it. I can't sleep the place is so charged....
What you've created here is a lot more than just monster fighters.
Buffy: Connection. Why can't I feel it.
Xander: Maybe you don't get to. Maybe the leader, the girl who brings it all together, is the one that has to give that up.
So my question is - is Twilight redeemable here? Is there any way of interpreting Twilight's dialogue to Buffy as anything other than sexism personified? He seems to want her to remain the one slayer, one lone superhero, like himself. Not share the power - because world can't handle it?
Is there another interpretation? Because I can't see how Twilight can be seen as anything other than an anti-hero. If he is meant to be heroic in any way, or is redeemed, what is that saying?
This issue and the one's that follow seem to state the opposite. Twilight in the Retreat arc attacks a bunch of powerless people, who he knows powered down and gave their power to the earth. He kills them and his own people without seeming to care. Earlier, he engineers either Faith or Gigi's death in No Future For You. And in A Long Way Home - he makes it possible for Amy and Warren to capture Willow and torture her. He's also responsible for countless deaths in Tokyo, not to mention elsewhere.
How is Twilight any different than Angelus or Adam? Is there any difference? Both see themselves as the hired gun, the chosen one to take down Buffy and change the world to fit their desires and their perspective - only difference is Twilight appears to want to restore order or the status quo (a la Wolf Ram and Hart) while Angelus and Adam wanted chaos.
And if he is just a pawn or puppet of the Powers That Be or God - does that excuse his actions? How does he know that's what the Powers or God wants? If you have the best intentions, does that make you right? Can good be achieved through evil? Do the ends ever justify the means?
What about Buffy? Outside of the robbery...and maybe stealing a sub, has she really hurt people? Or is she trying to empower them, give them the ability to make their own choices?
To decide their own fate?
Granted Buffy is far from perfect and empowering all the potential slayers does have dicey consequences in some respects, but with the onslaught of vampires...and demons, doesn't it make sense? And what is so wrong with these girls having power? Why should just one have it?
[ETA: WARNING - While the post is free of the Twilight reveal spoiler, the comments and discussion below are NOT. Do not read the comments if you do not wish to be spoiled. The post can be discussed with or without the spoiler.
ETA2:I'm very spoiled on Buffy S8, so no worries from my perspective. Don't have time to respond now or engage, since at work and very busy. Will come back later.]
Buffy to Satsu: People who love me tend to oh, die...maybe go to a hell dimension, or burn up, or they start letting vamps suck on em and they leave, they all leave, even my friends, sooner or later everybody realizes there's something wrong...something wrong with me, or around me, or... Wow. Did not mean to end up there. (she's crying).
Twilight then throws a boulder at her. And she's bleeding from the nose, injured.
Twilight: The Chosen One Always in Pain...and always complaining. Just like a girl. (This is where he critically injurs Satsu, by breaking her nose, then kicking her into a stone crypt two feet or more away.)
[Buffy goes to slice up the center with the Scythe]
Twilight: I know that move slayer. Le me show you some of mine. (He takes her by the scruff of her shirt in front and pulls her skyward, they are flying.) Understand this girl. You cannot fight me.
Buffy: Understand this ass-clown - I probably will anyway. (she puts the scythe in choke-hold around his neck).
Twilight : I'd expect no less. But I watched you and the witch - it seemed you didn't like flying.
Buffy: I get used to things real fast.
Twilight: Very well then, let's ride. Do you know that I actually came here to talk? (he crashes her into a church) But there you were ...going on about how hard it is for you, and well..I just hate to see you cry. (he is about to stab her with church steeple)
Buffy: Go ahead. Church me. Plenty more where that came from.
Twilight: Well that's the issue isn't it? One Slayer. Was all right. But all these girls...the world can't contain them and they will suffer for that. I'll not kill you now. My first gift is my last. I know that you meant well. But you have brought about disaster. And it falls to me to avert it.
Buffy: Twilight. That's you.
Twilight: Have you made a difference? Have your slayers helped change anything in this world?
Have they helped you?
Twilight to his subordinates/army comrades who have asked why he didn't kill her: That's been done. To Little Effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armor...her moral certainity. However hapless she may be about her personal life. This girl has always firmly believes she was on the side of right. And there's one thing I've learned about the slayer...
Meanwhile Buffy is comforting Satsu, and has taken Satsu to the hospital. Both women are covered in bandages. Satsu feels she's failed Buffy in some way, but Buffy reassures her and gives her strength. Then she has the following discussion with Xander...asking him Twilight's questions:
Buffy: Are we doing any good? We've been fighting more demons, but...but it just seems like there's more demons to fight and what is that because of us?
Xander: Buffy, turn around. I live with a bunch of slayers. Dozens of girls who are so filled up with purpose, with confidence they didn't have before...the walls are vibrating with it. I can't sleep the place is so charged....
What you've created here is a lot more than just monster fighters.
Buffy: Connection. Why can't I feel it.
Xander: Maybe you don't get to. Maybe the leader, the girl who brings it all together, is the one that has to give that up.
So my question is - is Twilight redeemable here? Is there any way of interpreting Twilight's dialogue to Buffy as anything other than sexism personified? He seems to want her to remain the one slayer, one lone superhero, like himself. Not share the power - because world can't handle it?
Is there another interpretation? Because I can't see how Twilight can be seen as anything other than an anti-hero. If he is meant to be heroic in any way, or is redeemed, what is that saying?
This issue and the one's that follow seem to state the opposite. Twilight in the Retreat arc attacks a bunch of powerless people, who he knows powered down and gave their power to the earth. He kills them and his own people without seeming to care. Earlier, he engineers either Faith or Gigi's death in No Future For You. And in A Long Way Home - he makes it possible for Amy and Warren to capture Willow and torture her. He's also responsible for countless deaths in Tokyo, not to mention elsewhere.
How is Twilight any different than Angelus or Adam? Is there any difference? Both see themselves as the hired gun, the chosen one to take down Buffy and change the world to fit their desires and their perspective - only difference is Twilight appears to want to restore order or the status quo (a la Wolf Ram and Hart) while Angelus and Adam wanted chaos.
And if he is just a pawn or puppet of the Powers That Be or God - does that excuse his actions? How does he know that's what the Powers or God wants? If you have the best intentions, does that make you right? Can good be achieved through evil? Do the ends ever justify the means?
What about Buffy? Outside of the robbery...and maybe stealing a sub, has she really hurt people? Or is she trying to empower them, give them the ability to make their own choices?
To decide their own fate?
Granted Buffy is far from perfect and empowering all the potential slayers does have dicey consequences in some respects, but with the onslaught of vampires...and demons, doesn't it make sense? And what is so wrong with these girls having power? Why should just one have it?
[ETA: WARNING - While the post is free of the Twilight reveal spoiler, the comments and discussion below are NOT. Do not read the comments if you do not wish to be spoiled. The post can be discussed with or without the spoiler.
ETA2:I'm very spoiled on Buffy S8, so no worries from my perspective. Don't have time to respond now or engage, since at work and very busy. Will come back later.]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-01-11 03:51 pm (UTC)And that would achieve what, in practical terms? Like I said in the original post; now Buffy would herself face the anguish of having to either kill her friends and followers or see the world end. Angel hopes to spare her that.
It seems to me you're approaching this from the perspective of the calm rationalist sitting in his armchair who knows this is a work of fiction, rather than looking at what Angel - the character Angel, as developed over 8 and a bit seasons of TV - would decide to do.
potentially sacrifice millions more with the alleged "Vampires are cool now" thing
All the evidence we've seen on-page indicates that the "vampires are cool now" thing is saving far more lives than it's taking. Vampires have realised that it's safer to feed WITHOUT killing.
Not to mention that because they've all come out into the public eye, it will be much easier to kill them all if public opinion changes back that it would be if they'd stayed in the shadows. That's a plan Lord Vetinari would be proud of. :-)
Because he's never had to face ambiguous - again, hypothetically - prophecies before?
Well, there was the one Sahjahn faked, and the one Lindsey and Eve faked. But in Angel's experience, I'd say that prophecies turn out true far more often than false. It's a matter of establishing the prophet's bona fides rather than finding a loophole in the prophecy itself.
I see now how he's being really kind by blowing up girls in their beds.
If he has to do that anyway, is it kinder to tell them they're going to die in advance, or kill them without warning?
I think Angel essentially tries to be a good person and this is clearly the exact opposite.
Did Angel ever once reproach Buffy for stabbing him through the heart and sending him to hell? Did he tell her she made the wrong decision?
It seems to me that Angel is much more about fighting the good fight whatever the cost than about maintaining some notional state of purity. He also has a huge martyr complex.
See his ideal solution to the problem of Connor at the end of S4... Angel thinks that keeping his loved ones in ignorance so they can lead a happy life is a good thing.
I would, however, argue that if he's doing this without having exhausted all other options, then his good intentions - like all terrorists' - or character flaws don't make his actions any less deplorable.
No argument from me here. That's why I take it as read that he has exhausted all the other options (or at least believes he has). The only other alternatives are that he's either turned utterly evil (Angelus), or that he's being possessed or controlled in some way, or that most of the actions we're been blaming on "Twilight" have in fact been done by someone else.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-11 04:29 pm (UTC)Assuming the one and only solution that's even remotely conceivable is killing all Slayers, maybe. There's a reason both Angel and Buffy used to do research. There's a reason Angel often refused to accept something he was told was a done deal.
It seems to me you're approaching this from the perspective of the calm rationalist sitting in his armchair who knows this is a work of fiction, rather than looking at what Angel - the character Angel, as developed over 8 and a bit seasons of TV - would decide to do.
It doesn't seem to be the same interpretation of the character as yours, but I'd argue that I'm seeing it from the perspective that Angel - as presented in the TV series - isn't first and foremost someone who kills innocents because it's easier than picking up a phone. I think where we differ is that you take it as a given that Angel is doing this, and then try to justify it; whereas I look at Angel finding out something along the lines that you're suggesting, and try to figure out how he'd react. And I don't think his first solution would be to turn into a slightly broodier Dalek.
All the evidence we've seen on-page indicates that the "vampires are cool now" thing is saving far more lives than it's taking. Vampires have realised that it's safer to feed WITHOUT killing.
I'd say that's debatable, at best; Harmony is shown killing people as part of her TV show - not just Soledad - and saying live on TV that vampires eat humans for dinner. The vamps in the TOTV one-shot seemed to not even comprehend the difference between killing and not killing. The vamps in #24 and #25 clearly haven't gotten the message. Then again, that whole storyline is so vague that it's hard to tell.
If he has to do that anyway
And it's exactly that "if" that I'm debating, given that he hasn't even checked with the people who know more about the spell than anyone else.
Did Angel ever once reproach Buffy for stabbing him through the heart and sending him to hell? Did he tell her she made the wrong decision?
She didn't. But she stabbed Angel, not thousands of other people. Plus, when has Angel ever not felt responsible for Angelus' actions?
He also has a huge martyr complex.
Agreed. But again, I just don't see "murderer" and "martyr" as synonyms. There's a reason there's no Saint Herod.
That's why I take it as read that he has exhausted all the other options (or at least believes he has).
Except we know he hasn't. Or at least we think we know. It's possible, of course, that Willow or Giles or Andrew etc has been talking to him and decided to keep it to themselves for whatever reason, though that would leave us with the same questions about them.
or that most of the actions we're been blaming on "Twilight" have in fact been done by someone else
Oh come on, Jeanty's likenesses aren't that bad. ;-)
That's... probably my last word on it. I don't think we're going to get any closer to the meat of it without more info. Even if speculating is fun, and your theory does make a lot of sense - it just needs to be ridiculously watertight if there's to be any hope of salvaging the character without essentially saying that all those supposedly empowered women he murdered were expendable anyway.