Buffy S8 - Beautiful Sunset Revisted - is Twilight Redeemable or even Justified?

[shadowkat]

So, after the Twilight spoiler...where Allie and others are suggesting that Twilight isn't really a villian or big bad, and that he is redeemable. I went back and re-read the issue where Buffy and Twilight fight, and Twilight critically injures Satsu - putting her in the hospital. I was curious to see if it was possible to redeem Twilight or see Twilight in a positive light, without sending an anti-feminist and sexist, not to mention misogynistic message. I don't believe it is, but I'm open to other views on this score.



Buffy to Satsu: People who love me tend to oh, die...maybe go to a hell dimension, or burn up, or they start letting vamps suck on em and they leave, they all leave, even my friends, sooner or later everybody realizes there's something wrong...something wrong with me, or around me, or... Wow. Did not mean to end up there. (she's crying).

Twilight then throws a boulder at her. And she's bleeding from the nose, injured.

Twilight: The Chosen One Always in Pain...and always complaining. Just like a girl. (This is where he critically injurs Satsu, by breaking her nose, then kicking her into a stone crypt two feet or more away.)

[Buffy goes to slice up the center with the Scythe]

Twilight: I know that move slayer. Le me show you some of mine. (He takes her by the scruff of her shirt in front and pulls her skyward, they are flying.) Understand this girl. You cannot fight me.

Buffy: Understand this ass-clown - I probably will anyway. (she puts the scythe in choke-hold around his neck).

Twilight : I'd expect no less. But I watched you and the witch - it seemed you didn't like flying.

Buffy: I get used to things real fast.

Twilight: Very well then, let's ride. Do you know that I actually came here to talk? (he crashes her into a church) But there you were ...going on about how hard it is for you, and well..I just hate to see you cry. (he is about to stab her with church steeple)

Buffy: Go ahead. Church me. Plenty more where that came from.

Twilight: Well that's the issue isn't it? One Slayer. Was all right. But all these girls...the world can't contain them and they will suffer for that. I'll not kill you now. My first gift is my last. I know that you meant well. But you have brought about disaster. And it falls to me to avert it.

Buffy: Twilight. That's you.

Twilight: Have you made a difference? Have your slayers helped change anything in this world?
Have they helped you?

Twilight to his subordinates/army comrades who have asked why he didn't kill her: That's been done. To Little Effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armor...her moral certainity. However hapless she may be about her personal life. This girl has always firmly believes she was on the side of right. And there's one thing I've learned about the slayer...

Meanwhile Buffy is comforting Satsu, and has taken Satsu to the hospital. Both women are covered in bandages. Satsu feels she's failed Buffy in some way, but Buffy reassures her and gives her strength. Then she has the following discussion with Xander...asking him Twilight's questions:

Buffy: Are we doing any good? We've been fighting more demons, but...but it just seems like there's more demons to fight and what is that because of us?

Xander: Buffy, turn around. I live with a bunch of slayers. Dozens of girls who are so filled up with purpose, with confidence they didn't have before...the walls are vibrating with it. I can't sleep the place is so charged....

What you've created here is a lot more than just monster fighters.

Buffy: Connection. Why can't I feel it.

Xander: Maybe you don't get to. Maybe the leader, the girl who brings it all together, is the one that has to give that up.

So my question is - is Twilight redeemable here? Is there any way of interpreting Twilight's dialogue to Buffy as anything other than sexism personified? He seems to want her to remain the one slayer, one lone superhero, like himself. Not share the power - because world can't handle it?

Is there another interpretation? Because I can't see how Twilight can be seen as anything other than an anti-hero. If he is meant to be heroic in any way, or is redeemed, what is that saying?

This issue and the one's that follow seem to state the opposite. Twilight in the Retreat arc attacks a bunch of powerless people, who he knows powered down and gave their power to the earth. He kills them and his own people without seeming to care. Earlier, he engineers either Faith or Gigi's death in No Future For You. And in A Long Way Home - he makes it possible for Amy and Warren to capture Willow and torture her. He's also responsible for countless deaths in Tokyo, not to mention elsewhere.

How is Twilight any different than Angelus or Adam? Is there any difference? Both see themselves as the hired gun, the chosen one to take down Buffy and change the world to fit their desires and their perspective - only difference is Twilight appears to want to restore order or the status quo (a la Wolf Ram and Hart) while Angelus and Adam wanted chaos.

And if he is just a pawn or puppet of the Powers That Be or God - does that excuse his actions? How does he know that's what the Powers or God wants? If you have the best intentions, does that make you right? Can good be achieved through evil? Do the ends ever justify the means?

What about Buffy? Outside of the robbery...and maybe stealing a sub, has she really hurt people? Or is she trying to empower them, give them the ability to make their own choices?
To decide their own fate?

Granted Buffy is far from perfect and empowering all the potential slayers does have dicey consequences in some respects, but with the onslaught of vampires...and demons, doesn't it make sense? And what is so wrong with these girls having power? Why should just one have it?



[ETA: WARNING - While the post is free of the Twilight reveal spoiler, the comments and discussion below are NOT. Do not read the comments if you do not wish to be spoiled. The post can be discussed with or without the spoiler.

ETA2:I'm very spoiled on Buffy S8, so no worries from my perspective. Don't have time to respond now or engage, since at work and very busy. Will come back later.]

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well since I read ATS S5 far darker than most fans, and Angel as a sort of noirish anti-hero...but, there are differences.
Twilight unlike Angel, as BGF notes, doesn't appear to show any remorse for killing innocent humans, and kills far more.
Angel may have killed Drogon - but Drogon was a pseudo-immortal, who had lived a long long time and had power. He was not a human being. Also, while he put people in danger, it wasn't deliberate - he did not intend on LA going to hell in a handbasket. His intentions were well not perfect, but better than they are here. It's basically the difference between well
Angel S5 and Adam or Caleb. Twilight reminds me more of Caleb to be honest - heck he even stole Caleb's schitck - the whole "you're just a girl" or "just like a girl" thing. Which may have been deliberate on Angel's part?

I went back and reread Long Way Home - and you are correct it is possible that the Twilight network existed before Twilight - they refer Twilight as if he is on the way or has not arrived yet, a work in progress. Which would fit with the IDW comics actually - since in IDW - Angel has been kidnapped and is being drained to create more vampires, while kept alive - lord knows what else they'll do to him. Which may mean that IDW did know what Whedon was up to and was attempting to build a back story??? I don't know. But it certainly makes me more interested in Bill Willingham's Angel arc than I was before.
So maybe the Buffy comics take place after the Angel ones?
As opposed to simulataneously? Or maybe they are two divergent universes? I'm guessing the latter, but I don't know.

So is Angel someone else's puppet or pawn? Certainly wouldn't be the first time - he is perpetually being manipulated by someone, whether it is Jasmine, the PTB, WRH, Holtz, or Lindsey.

In later issues, Twilight is clearly and indisputedly in charge - people seem to bow and salute him, and call him sir.
Even Voll. He orders everyone around. He underwrites the vampkitties. So if someone is pulling his strings, we don't see them.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Twilight unlike Angel, as BGF notes, doesn't appear to show any remorse for killing innocent humans, and kills far more.

How often did we see Angel actively showing remorse for his actions on Ats, though? Seems to me his style is to go for weeks being all dark and mysterious, and only then (maybe) he'll confess to someone about the inner torment within. Without those occasional once-or-twice-a-season outbursts of feeling, he'd be, well, pretty much like Twilight has been in S8.

As for killing "far more" innocent humans - who exactly? Almost all the people we've seen being killed through Twilight's direct involvement have been Slayers. They might be innocent humans in Buffy's eyes, but to many other people they're dangerously unstable demonic-powered killing machines.

Yes, in the earlier issues we sometimes saw rampagey demons who, at the moment of triumph or disaster, would shout "Long live Twilight!" or even "When Twilight comes you'll be sorry!"... but that fits the idea that Twilight is a pre-existing organisation, or a prophecy or something, and not that Angel has direct control over the actions of his minions.

Or maybe he decided that his plan was urgent enough to put together a coalition of unsavoury allies in order to deal with the Slayers before it's too late, and he'll have to worry about the collateral damage later. (And yes, if that happens it's pretty likely that Buffy will say to him at some point "Innocent people are not 'collateral damage'!" and Angel will reply angrily "What other choice did you leave me?" and we'll have to make up our own minds who's right.)


So maybe the Buffy comics take place after the Angel ones?

I don't think there's any 'maybe' about it. This is from the Scott Allie interview on the MTV website:

Angel's appearance in "Season Eight" doesn't clash with the timeline of his solo series at IDW. "The timelines don't overlap yet," said Allie. "The 'Angel' series at IDW picks up at end of 'Angel' television series, but 'Buffy: Season Eight' started up a significant amount of time after the television series ended."

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

How often did we see Angel actively showing remorse for his actions on Ats, though? Seems to me his style is to go for weeks being all dark and mysterious, and only then (maybe) he'll confess to someone about the inner torment within.

No, he just brooded. Brooding = clear displays of Remorse in fandom, or did you miss that argument? ;-) Twilight unfortunately wears a mask, so we can't tell if he is brooding or not. So you may have a point.

As for killing "far more" innocent humans - who exactly? Almost all the people we've seen being killed through Twilight's direct involvement have been Slayers. They might be innocent humans in Buffy's eyes, but to many other people they're dangerously unstable demonic-powered killing machines.

So why isn't Connor dead? He's far more dangerous - raised in a hell dimension, son of two vampires. Clearly not of human background. He should have been killed first. Oh wait, he's the son of Angel and not in this comic anyhow, so never mind. ;-)
How about Harmony? Who kills people nightly on her reality tv series? Oh wait, she's a vampire, pretty, cute, hot, and a ratings pleaser, we can't kill her. That would be wrong!

And what about the vampires...guess they aren't a problem, after all they aren't alive, they are an underprivileged minority. No much better to go after those pesky slayers. Can't have women with power...

So, yes, let's kill the women, bad women, shouldn't have powers.
And even if they willingly let their powers go to live a peaceful life in Tibet with a bunch of Buddhist werewolves...still bad women, kill, kill! After all they are women, not men. So they deserve to die. Not innocent. They will take over and change our world order, where guns, submarines, and guys rule!

Yeah...the slayers certainly aren't innocent people. They are armed adversaries...the enemy. Worse than the demons and vampires, because hey, our leader is a vampire and our allies are demons.

Still not seeing how Twilight can be redeemed here without sending a really negative message about female empowerment. But maybe I'm missing something?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, I should clarify...I do not think Angel being Twilight is out of character. Actually it makes sense to me. I just don't see how Twilight as he is currently written can be a good guy or righteous, without providing a really negative statement regarding female empowerment. Granted we are in Buffy's pov here. But we have spent some time in Xander's, Dawn's, and Twilight's...and I still don't see how. Granted this may not be the right question or the one the writer wants me to ask, but..
it is one like it or not that is being presented.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Well, my theory ever since the reveal has been that it's the Slayers specifically who have unbalanced the world. It's them, not "Demons" or "vampires" in general, who - to the best of Twilight's knowledge - will bring about an inevitable apocalypse if there are still 1800 of them come next Tuesday.

I don't disagree at all that this will send an unfortunate message about female empowerment if it turns out to be true... unless, of course, the solution Buffy comes up with in issue 40 is to empower every woman as a Slayer instrad of just 1800 of them, or something like that.

Even so, I'm not willing to treat Angel as irredeemably evil for taking actions which, in his honest opinion, were necessary to save the lives of 5,999,998,200 people.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'd be less inclined to treat Angel as irredeemably evil if he allowed the 1800 slayers who powered down in Tibet and were not fighting to live peacefully.
Remember, they decided that having power was wrong and gave it up to the earth. They had no powers. Twilight knew this, but went in for the kill anyway.

He attacked people who were not super-powered with weaponery that out-ranked them.

You don't attack evil by doing evil. And far as I can tell, Twilight doesn't value life, he values power.
He's not doing this to put the world back into balance,
or to save lives, he's doing it because they've decided that a slayer army is a bad thing. (I don't see anything that states otherwise.)

But let's say for a moment that you are right and the slayer empowerment spell - which defeated the first evil and shared Buffy's power with all the potential slayers - so that she's not the only girl fighting vampires has upset the balance...and people would die?
Wouldn't it make more sense to reverse the spell than, I don't know, kill all the slayers?

Also, isn't Twilight against "magic" in general not just slayers? That's what is stated in Anywhere but Here:

Buffy: You walk in the human reality and the the other ones, older ones. That makes you Tichajit, one of the demon elite.

Tichajit: I know what I am. Human. T

Buffy:Then you know where we are heading. The imbalance between our worlds is going to rain destruction on all our heads.

Tichajit: Twilight. Your fear is obnoxiously sweet.

Willow: Do you know what it is? What it truly means?

Tichajit: The end of course. Of the struggle. Of the hellmouths... the final triumph of the base humans over the demons. It's your life's goal achieved Slayer. The death of magic. Lies, delusions, gross simplifications...these are what manke mankind. No fault in it, your brains could not contain the horrible beauty of total awareness. You run from it, as from a predator. You escape. Even from each other.
And Tijcahit reveals their secrets and fears.

Buffy fearful of what happens in Time of Your Life coming to pass, goes finally to Tibet, where she asks OZ and Bay to remove their powers. They decide to live the life of peace. But Twilight comes and attacks them, killing over half, and to spare more lives, their own and their enemies - they call up the Goddesses to stop it...but the Goddesses make things worse and notably it is Buffy not Twilight, who says look after the wounded, help them, all the humans, regardless. Twilight shrugs.

I'm not seeing anything justified. Particularly when we are shown, as is Twilight...for he does appear to know about it - that reversing the spell is not hard.
All you need is the scythe and a good witch..where can we find one? Wait, Amy.

He doesn't even have to talk to Willow.

So, how is Angel/Twilight's ends justifyingly saving lives here? According to Tichajit Twilight is bringing about the apocalypse.

See that's the interesting thing about good old Angel - is he never really stops the Apocalypse so much as aids in it coming about. He gave Giles the Prophecy and info to get Buffy to see the Master in S1, in S2 he opened the mouth of Acathla, in S3 he distracted and weakened Buffy, in S4 he almost distracted her again, in his own series - he almost brought it about by enabling Jasmin's enterance, he brought it about in S5, he brought the Beast via Cordy's decision to help in. Angel means well, but he destroys everything he touches - he's a tragic hero...straight out of a nightmare. But he can't be redeemed because his pride, everytime, gets in the way. I see the same thing happening here.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, and for reasons that make little sense...Twilight has left the Rogue Slayers completely alone - the ones, who, you know, are actually a threat to humanity and have been hurting people off on their island - (Predators and Prey). Can't see why he couldn't locate them...