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shadowkatSo, after the Twilight spoiler...where Allie and others are suggesting that Twilight isn't really a villian or big bad, and that he is redeemable. I went back and re-read the issue where Buffy and Twilight fight, and Twilight critically injures Satsu - putting her in the hospital. I was curious to see if it was possible to redeem Twilight or see Twilight in a positive light, without sending an anti-feminist and sexist, not to mention misogynistic message. I don't believe it is, but I'm open to other views on this score.
Buffy to Satsu: People who love me tend to oh, die...maybe go to a hell dimension, or burn up, or they start letting vamps suck on em and they leave, they all leave, even my friends, sooner or later everybody realizes there's something wrong...something wrong with me, or around me, or... Wow. Did not mean to end up there. (she's crying).
Twilight then throws a boulder at her. And she's bleeding from the nose, injured.
Twilight: The Chosen One Always in Pain...and always complaining. Just like a girl. (This is where he critically injurs Satsu, by breaking her nose, then kicking her into a stone crypt two feet or more away.)
[Buffy goes to slice up the center with the Scythe]
Twilight: I know that move slayer. Le me show you some of mine. (He takes her by the scruff of her shirt in front and pulls her skyward, they are flying.) Understand this girl. You cannot fight me.
Buffy: Understand this ass-clown - I probably will anyway. (she puts the scythe in choke-hold around his neck).
Twilight : I'd expect no less. But I watched you and the witch - it seemed you didn't like flying.
Buffy: I get used to things real fast.
Twilight: Very well then, let's ride. Do you know that I actually came here to talk? (he crashes her into a church) But there you were ...going on about how hard it is for you, and well..I just hate to see you cry. (he is about to stab her with church steeple)
Buffy: Go ahead. Church me. Plenty more where that came from.
Twilight: Well that's the issue isn't it? One Slayer. Was all right. But all these girls...the world can't contain them and they will suffer for that. I'll not kill you now. My first gift is my last. I know that you meant well. But you have brought about disaster. And it falls to me to avert it.
Buffy: Twilight. That's you.
Twilight: Have you made a difference? Have your slayers helped change anything in this world?
Have they helped you?
Twilight to his subordinates/army comrades who have asked why he didn't kill her: That's been done. To Little Effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armor...her moral certainity. However hapless she may be about her personal life. This girl has always firmly believes she was on the side of right. And there's one thing I've learned about the slayer...
Meanwhile Buffy is comforting Satsu, and has taken Satsu to the hospital. Both women are covered in bandages. Satsu feels she's failed Buffy in some way, but Buffy reassures her and gives her strength. Then she has the following discussion with Xander...asking him Twilight's questions:
Buffy: Are we doing any good? We've been fighting more demons, but...but it just seems like there's more demons to fight and what is that because of us?
Xander: Buffy, turn around. I live with a bunch of slayers. Dozens of girls who are so filled up with purpose, with confidence they didn't have before...the walls are vibrating with it. I can't sleep the place is so charged....
What you've created here is a lot more than just monster fighters.
Buffy: Connection. Why can't I feel it.
Xander: Maybe you don't get to. Maybe the leader, the girl who brings it all together, is the one that has to give that up.
So my question is - is Twilight redeemable here? Is there any way of interpreting Twilight's dialogue to Buffy as anything other than sexism personified? He seems to want her to remain the one slayer, one lone superhero, like himself. Not share the power - because world can't handle it?
Is there another interpretation? Because I can't see how Twilight can be seen as anything other than an anti-hero. If he is meant to be heroic in any way, or is redeemed, what is that saying?
This issue and the one's that follow seem to state the opposite. Twilight in the Retreat arc attacks a bunch of powerless people, who he knows powered down and gave their power to the earth. He kills them and his own people without seeming to care. Earlier, he engineers either Faith or Gigi's death in No Future For You. And in A Long Way Home - he makes it possible for Amy and Warren to capture Willow and torture her. He's also responsible for countless deaths in Tokyo, not to mention elsewhere.
How is Twilight any different than Angelus or Adam? Is there any difference? Both see themselves as the hired gun, the chosen one to take down Buffy and change the world to fit their desires and their perspective - only difference is Twilight appears to want to restore order or the status quo (a la Wolf Ram and Hart) while Angelus and Adam wanted chaos.
And if he is just a pawn or puppet of the Powers That Be or God - does that excuse his actions? How does he know that's what the Powers or God wants? If you have the best intentions, does that make you right? Can good be achieved through evil? Do the ends ever justify the means?
What about Buffy? Outside of the robbery...and maybe stealing a sub, has she really hurt people? Or is she trying to empower them, give them the ability to make their own choices?
To decide their own fate?
Granted Buffy is far from perfect and empowering all the potential slayers does have dicey consequences in some respects, but with the onslaught of vampires...and demons, doesn't it make sense? And what is so wrong with these girls having power? Why should just one have it?
[ETA: WARNING - While the post is free of the Twilight reveal spoiler, the comments and discussion below are NOT. Do not read the comments if you do not wish to be spoiled. The post can be discussed with or without the spoiler.
ETA2:I'm very spoiled on Buffy S8, so no worries from my perspective. Don't have time to respond now or engage, since at work and very busy. Will come back later.]
Buffy to Satsu: People who love me tend to oh, die...maybe go to a hell dimension, or burn up, or they start letting vamps suck on em and they leave, they all leave, even my friends, sooner or later everybody realizes there's something wrong...something wrong with me, or around me, or... Wow. Did not mean to end up there. (she's crying).
Twilight then throws a boulder at her. And she's bleeding from the nose, injured.
Twilight: The Chosen One Always in Pain...and always complaining. Just like a girl. (This is where he critically injurs Satsu, by breaking her nose, then kicking her into a stone crypt two feet or more away.)
[Buffy goes to slice up the center with the Scythe]
Twilight: I know that move slayer. Le me show you some of mine. (He takes her by the scruff of her shirt in front and pulls her skyward, they are flying.) Understand this girl. You cannot fight me.
Buffy: Understand this ass-clown - I probably will anyway. (she puts the scythe in choke-hold around his neck).
Twilight : I'd expect no less. But I watched you and the witch - it seemed you didn't like flying.
Buffy: I get used to things real fast.
Twilight: Very well then, let's ride. Do you know that I actually came here to talk? (he crashes her into a church) But there you were ...going on about how hard it is for you, and well..I just hate to see you cry. (he is about to stab her with church steeple)
Buffy: Go ahead. Church me. Plenty more where that came from.
Twilight: Well that's the issue isn't it? One Slayer. Was all right. But all these girls...the world can't contain them and they will suffer for that. I'll not kill you now. My first gift is my last. I know that you meant well. But you have brought about disaster. And it falls to me to avert it.
Buffy: Twilight. That's you.
Twilight: Have you made a difference? Have your slayers helped change anything in this world?
Have they helped you?
Twilight to his subordinates/army comrades who have asked why he didn't kill her: That's been done. To Little Effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armor...her moral certainity. However hapless she may be about her personal life. This girl has always firmly believes she was on the side of right. And there's one thing I've learned about the slayer...
Meanwhile Buffy is comforting Satsu, and has taken Satsu to the hospital. Both women are covered in bandages. Satsu feels she's failed Buffy in some way, but Buffy reassures her and gives her strength. Then she has the following discussion with Xander...asking him Twilight's questions:
Buffy: Are we doing any good? We've been fighting more demons, but...but it just seems like there's more demons to fight and what is that because of us?
Xander: Buffy, turn around. I live with a bunch of slayers. Dozens of girls who are so filled up with purpose, with confidence they didn't have before...the walls are vibrating with it. I can't sleep the place is so charged....
What you've created here is a lot more than just monster fighters.
Buffy: Connection. Why can't I feel it.
Xander: Maybe you don't get to. Maybe the leader, the girl who brings it all together, is the one that has to give that up.
So my question is - is Twilight redeemable here? Is there any way of interpreting Twilight's dialogue to Buffy as anything other than sexism personified? He seems to want her to remain the one slayer, one lone superhero, like himself. Not share the power - because world can't handle it?
Is there another interpretation? Because I can't see how Twilight can be seen as anything other than an anti-hero. If he is meant to be heroic in any way, or is redeemed, what is that saying?
This issue and the one's that follow seem to state the opposite. Twilight in the Retreat arc attacks a bunch of powerless people, who he knows powered down and gave their power to the earth. He kills them and his own people without seeming to care. Earlier, he engineers either Faith or Gigi's death in No Future For You. And in A Long Way Home - he makes it possible for Amy and Warren to capture Willow and torture her. He's also responsible for countless deaths in Tokyo, not to mention elsewhere.
How is Twilight any different than Angelus or Adam? Is there any difference? Both see themselves as the hired gun, the chosen one to take down Buffy and change the world to fit their desires and their perspective - only difference is Twilight appears to want to restore order or the status quo (a la Wolf Ram and Hart) while Angelus and Adam wanted chaos.
And if he is just a pawn or puppet of the Powers That Be or God - does that excuse his actions? How does he know that's what the Powers or God wants? If you have the best intentions, does that make you right? Can good be achieved through evil? Do the ends ever justify the means?
What about Buffy? Outside of the robbery...and maybe stealing a sub, has she really hurt people? Or is she trying to empower them, give them the ability to make their own choices?
To decide their own fate?
Granted Buffy is far from perfect and empowering all the potential slayers does have dicey consequences in some respects, but with the onslaught of vampires...and demons, doesn't it make sense? And what is so wrong with these girls having power? Why should just one have it?
[ETA: WARNING - While the post is free of the Twilight reveal spoiler, the comments and discussion below are NOT. Do not read the comments if you do not wish to be spoiled. The post can be discussed with or without the spoiler.
ETA2:I'm very spoiled on Buffy S8, so no worries from my perspective. Don't have time to respond now or engage, since at work and very busy. Will come back later.]
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no subject
Date: 2010-01-12 10:04 pm (UTC)To add onto your pile: The spike/Spike joke has *both* of Buffy's other two exes basically saying that Spike matters. Buffy's dream where she knocks Xander's head off recalls the alley way scene, by having Buffy say "oh balls", and having her worry about being too rough on her lovers and her fears that she's dark. She goes straight from that to Ethan Rayne, in case we missed the point. Satsu replays the Spuffy relationship in a mellower key. In WatG we have Xander's evil vampire who has an unrequited love for him crossing lines and making sacrifices to save the day. The dialogue between Willow and Harth written before Willow is revealed as Willow and not Drusilla screams Spike if you read with the mistaken identity, including the term "slayer of slayers" which sounds at first like a reference to Spike but turns out to be a reference to Buffy. (And isn't that a bit ominious, now that I think about it).
And finally there's just this huge, huge gap. What major charaacter *hasn't* gotten pulled into the story? Faith is there. Tara has shown up. Oz had a pretty big role. Riley is in the picture. Parket has been mentioned. Joyce has been missed. Various potentials are in the story. Andrew has a major role. We've seen Warren and Amy and Ethan. Robin Wood made an appearance. We've made a point of saying Xander mourned Anya. Now Angel is back. If you put up a roster in terms of importance to the show and appearance in the comic, Spike's absence would be absolutely stunning. How far down would you have to go before you got another absent character? Even Harmony and Clem have shown up. Where are we? Scott Hope? Larry? We know what everyone else is doing but we've got no clue what Spike is up to or whether Buffy even knows he's alive.
There's a complex at LJ about Spike being unloved by Joss and/or Dark Horse. But the way to show unlove is to park him away with a bubble like the one Anya got. This is something else.
NFFY is entirely devoted to the inversion between Buffy and Faith. Buffy is dicey and morally grey. Faith has been impeccable. Now Angel comes in very dark. Any chance we get another inversion?
And big word on Spike and the scythe. The scythe spell matters. Spike's soul juice powered straight up through where Willow was casting the spell, and Buffy attributed her very possession of the scythe to Spike. I think that's a place where he could matter a great deal.
It'll be intersting!
no subject
Date: 2010-01-13 12:57 am (UTC)Hypothetically speaking, say the writers do think, Buffy has moved on, and knows Spike is alive, and he isn't important to her in the romanctic sense?
The whole story is about slayers upsetting the balance, that there are too many slayers. And they have to get rid of them. Vampires vs. Slayers. Humans vs. Slayers.
Okay, so who is the character known for killing "slayers"? Who came into the show to kill the slayer? Who has killed two slayers? Whose coat is an ex-slayers? And explained to Buffy in depth how to kill a slayer? Also who was the character who is a vampire, but a redeemed one, who was directly attacked by a slayer and almost killed - enough to make Angel wonder about them? What vampire has studied slayers?
Sought them out when there was only one? Changed sides because of a slayer?
If the story is about the slayer and the mythos of the slayer. If the army wants to do away with slayers.
Why didn't the go to the expert?
I'm sorry, but even if Buffy cared less about Spike - which I seriously doubt, the story is about too many slayers - and the only character who knows about slayers, who has killed slayers, and has fought Buffy to a standstill more than once, and sought his soul for a slayer - and has upset the balance by doing so.
Is Spike.
Spike upset the balance in Angel, and Angel went nuts.
Also, Spike was the wildcard in S2. The powers didn't see him coming. Whistler didn't know he existed. WRH wasn't sure what to do with him in S5.
Whatever your personal feelings regarding the character are - he is central to all of the plot issues in this story. The only way I could see him not being in the story - was if a deal was made with IDW not to feature Angel characters prominently, but once it was revealed that Angel was Twilight - that logic flew out the window. I'm sorry, Spike's absence is a bit too obvious. If he wasn't an issue, they'd have written him off much like they did Robin Wood, early on.