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shadowkat1. Does Sunshine have a smell? I've decided it does. Smells warm and fresh, clean. Not like dirt or flowers. More subtle. I'm not sure it can be reproduced. My granny used to say that it was better to line dry clothes because they would smell like sunshine. As if a warm hand had touched them with love. Sunshine smells like love. Or like a warm piece of blanket. Cottony. Today, I filled my apartment with the smell of sunshine washing away the floral taste of insect repellant, a rancid smell, sweet and acrid (the insect repellant not the sunshine.) It made me happy. The type of happiness that is almost fleeting and comes from nothing other than the knowledge that one is alive and happy to be on earth, soaked in sunshine.
2. Cleaned. Which included doing something I've been putting off for well like forever. I threw out my collection of cassett or music tapes. This was a heavy box, filled with well over 1000 tapes, most of which dated back 20-30 years. I stopped listening to them when I got the ipod and CD's. And well, my tape player, much like my VCR went kablooey. That got thrown out too - the tape player, not the VCR (VCR was thrown out about five-six years ago). Had interesting conversation with landlord about this...he was busy reinstalling the pigeon defense grid - ie plastic spikes to keep pigeons off the roof and away from my window. One of the spikes apparently fell off.
Landlord: Oh, I have a collection of tapes I got to get rid of myself. Including, *cough*Culture Club*cough*.
Me: Yep, I have that too. As well as all the bootlegged tapes of the Grateful Dead - my ex-boyfriend was a groupie. Actually, I have all the 60's, 70's and 80's music on tape, along with music sang by college friends. But I can't listen to it anymore - the tape has degraded.
Landlord: Grateful Dead? Cool!! (he looks at me as if I'm nuts for getting rid of them. Sigh. Yes, Ex-college boyfriend was a dead-head, what can I say? Also a philosophy major and singer - which turned out to be a deadly combination and something I was incredibly attracted to, until he permanently broke me of the habit.) I listened to mine a while back on a walkman.
ME: I stopped around the time, I got the ipod and well Cd's have taken their place. A bit more durable. (Pause) You know you are getting old when you can remember a time when you taped things and there were no CD's or MP3 players.
Landlord: Or you can remember 45s.
Me: Oh yeah 45s. Or how about when there wasn't an internet. Wasn't email. And the Mac was a huge computer with a tiny screen and sort of useless for anything but word processing.
(Sigh, sometimes, not always, but sometimes - I truly miss those days. The fact that 50-60% of the people reading this have no clue what I'm talking about and no memory of cassett recorders or a time that MP3 players did not exist...boggles my mind. Actually, I find it pretty mind-boggling that there are people online who don't know what it was like not to have an internet or email. When you had to fax everything and all phones were landlines. Funny, I don't feel old. Well, except for the creaks whenever I get up in the morning. I really miss the days in which I could pop out of bed without sitting for five minutes rolling shoulders and flexing neck, so I didn't end up with a charley-horse.)
Getting rid of the tapes wasn't as painful as I thought. Actually sort of freeing. I was becoming allergic to that box in my bedroom.
3. After all the cleaning, which included more than just getting rid of the tapes - was an all day affair, I decided to enjoy the lovely weather and ran errands. Walked up to neighborhood comic shop, which was mobbed with the stereotypical comic book buyer - heavyset, bearded dudes, and little boys (as in ten - twelve and able to crawl under tables, and who come up to my knee or waist. I more or less stood out, being the only woman in the joint - outside of the pretty girl at the desk. There were a few women who came in after me, but not for the comics, more as companions to the guys or their sons. It was free comic book day.
Anyhow...I realized reading through the offerings, that most comics (not all obviously) are in some respects the equivalent of a male romance novel. This is a term I coined after seeing the Frank Miller flick Sin City based on Miller's comic of the same name - which was all the rage back in 1980s, but I found rather derivative and ignored, even though comic book shop boy was literally begging me to try it. For Buffy fans - Sin City is notable in one respect - it is how the writer's came up with the back story for Spike's leather jacket, they borrowed the idea from Miller's Sin City. So if you hate that back story, think the whole Nikki/Spike bit is offensive and a lot of people do, you might want to skip Frank Miller's graphic novels.
Darker and more graphic than the worst Raymond Chandler offering, (don't get me wrong, I like Raymond Chandler, was weaned on Chandler). These comics, which I like to call noir horror or noir crime - and they have a special category in the store all their own, are all pretty much a like. And few if any are written by women - for much the same reason that few if any female romance novels are written by men, I suspect. This unfortunately bodes true of the other comics as well, not just the noir ones. Even comics that are based on books by women or stories by women have been adapted by men. There was one that was free - which was based on a woman's YA sci-fantasy novel - but adapted by a guy.
I bought the only comic I could find in the whole store that was written by a woman, granted didn't look at all the bound and expensive volumes, just the magazine issues. The store was crowded since it was free comic day.
This is by way of an introduction to my perusal of all of Bill Willingham's Angel comics in the comic store. As noted in an earlier post - the IDW editor Mariah H, got me curious about the comics. So thought I'd check them out, see what all the hubbub was about for myself.
What did I think? Short version? Well, I guess it is notable that although I did actually buy two comic books today, Willingham's Angel books were not amongst them.
I didn't exactly read them in depth or anything, I perused or scanned them. Not that it matters, deep and layered, these things are not. Fables actually is more layered. If you really want to read Willingham - I'd suggest delving into Fables - it's better written and drawn, not to mention a bit more creative. Willingham is not a good fanfic writer. Or hired gun. He definitely does not have a future in television writing. He reminds me a bit of Frank Miller, actually, yet not as subtle or creative. So, if you like this stuff - skip Willingham completely and spend your money on Miller and Moore. There's a reason Miller and Moore have hit mainstream stores, and Willingham remains on the fringes.
Regarding Spike's arc in the comics? Don't really see one to be honest. He basically has a cameo, he shows up, says something that is supposed to be witty and isn't. Does something that is supposed to be witty and isn't. And acts more or less like Philip Marlow in one of Raymond Chandler's darker novels - Farewell My Lovely - I think it was called. Can't remember. Was made into a movie at some point. A bad movie. Or one of Frank Miller's characters in Sin City - the epitome of the male romance novel. Willingham excels at male romance, but is not very good at wit. Wit is admittedly hard to do well. Not everything can pull it off. Say what you will about Brian Lynch - but he's definitely witty and rather good at satire. He has the same self-deprectating, psuedo sardonic/satiric wit that Whedon and Fury excelled at in the series. Which is why the only Angel/Spike comics that I will read are by Brian Lynch. I'm ignoring everyone else.
As for Spike's behavior?
It didn't bother me. Of course, I'd already read everyone's rants on it. So I was expecting something a lot worse than what I read. One of the benefits of reading reviews first, I suppose. I can see why it bothers other people. But I've read a lot of these types of comics, and novels not to mention seen a lot of noir films and tv shows in my lifetime - and I happen to work in a field where men are, shall we say, a bit on the crude side - heck, I work in a building where I share an elevator ride with ex-cons who masturbate in the elevator - while they travel to the fifth floor for transistional services aka art therapy.
Is it in character? Yes and no. [I admittedly have a view of Spike that appears to be somewhere to the right of the die-hard Spike shippers and to the left of the die-hard Spike haters, yet I ship the character violently. This makes my life as a Spike shipper fraught with frustration and peril. I have to be careful what I say or I get blasted by one or both parties (yes that's possible, trust me, and not pleasant - please don't do it now or I will delete you). I also have the wildly unpopular opinion in some quarters, wherein I think that Angel did far worse and still does far worse than anyone else ever has - the series has backed me up on that point. Spike to me, at any rate, always appeared to be a bit of a heroic foil to Angel's anti-hero - another view that I realize contrasts greatly with a lot of people online, who for reasons that continue to bewilder and amuse me, appear to see the exact opposite. Apparently...they did not understand the line in School Hard - where Spike makes it clear that Angel was his Yoda - ie. Angel taught Spike everything he knew and how to do it. What do you think a yoda is? The whole point - is that Angel was the worst vampire that ever lived. That's why Buffy and Angel are star-crossed lovers. Hero/Anti-hero. Get it? If they were both heroes, there wouldn't be a problem. That was the whole S2 character arc.]
My difficulty with the characterization in the comics has less to do with what Spike physically does (like I said above, it reminds me of a Raymond Chandler novel except with vampires), and more well to do with what he says while he's doing it.
Willingham doesn't appear to understand snark or for that matter know how to do it. (see above). From what I've seen of Willingham and Williams online? My guess is these guys take themselves far too seriously and have rather fragile egos. Freelance writing in comics - is not the easiest, most rewarding, recognized, or highest paying of writing professions. (It's the male equivalent of the Harlequinn or Regency Romance novel, or for that matter in tv terms - the daytime soap opera. All three are treated with more or less the same level of derision.) These guys would kill to get a screenplay, a directing gig, or a primetime tv show (all of which Lynch and Whedon have gotten).
Sardonic wit, self-deprecating wit, satiric wit, and gallows humor - is something you either get or you don't. I happen to love it - it's my brand of humor. I snark all the time on lj. When I get on the phone with my Dad - we have snark fests. It's a thing. One of the reasons, Spike is my favorite character is that he is so snarky. He has great one liners. And he has a sort of self-deprecating charm. In contrast, Angel tends to lack both - that dude takes himself far too seriously. Which is why Spike gets off on making fun of him. Someone has to. The humor regarding Angel - tending to be more physical than intellectual (snark), which is partly why Angel doesn't appeal to me that much. I prefer the snark. Physical humor, not all, but most, tends to make me cringe with embarrassment. Angel's bad dancing? Ew. There are episodes of that series - I just can't watch without cringing.
When Willingham attempts snark - and it's not just in regards to Spike - it comes across as well, crude low-brow jokes some of which are quite cringe-worthy. Spike was snarky not crude. There's a difference. Don't get me wrong, and someone will, I'm not saying Spike couldn't be crude. He could and was and is. But, he is mostly just snarky, with a lot of bravado, and self-deprecation. That's his coping mechanism - to make fun of everything including himself. This is hard to pull off - especially if you don't understand or like snark and self-deprecating wit. And from what I've seen online and in the Fables series? Willingham is not snarky. He takes himself and his writing far too seriously. So as a result, he tends to write the characters a bit too stiff.
The art? I'm not a fan of Denham. It's too busy. The proportions are completely off. The perspective is off. The characters move stiffly. And well, I like Jeanty's art better. Denham actually makes Jeanty look brilliant by comparison.
The dialogue? Doesn't fit the characters. Willingham just does not have their voices. Lynch, love him or hate him, did have the character's voices down. Again this has a lot to do with the fact that Willingham just isn't that witty. He's trying. But it just doesn't quite work.
The plot? Boilerplate noir. I've read it before. It could be interesting. The whole Immortality for Dummies thing and Spike making fun of prophecies bit by hiring someone to write one. That in the right hands, could be hilarious. Here? It will most likely fall flat.
So, long story short? Sorry, Mariah, the story isn't interesting enough for me to waste time, money or premium binder space on (the damn comics have to go somewhere - right now they are organized in binders...thick heavy binders), and the arc seems rather non-existent. The story you think you are producing? I don't see on the page. As a result? I didn't buy them.
Instead - I spent my hard earned cash on Felicia Day's The Guild - which does appear to be witty and hey, look, written by a woman and is about women - a novelty. And Echo by Terry Moore, who can actually figure out proportion and perspective and is possibly amongst the best artists in the field (what the Buffy comics would have been like if Moore had been drawing them! But Moore like Miller is the double-whammy, he writes and draws his stories, so they are not collaborative efforts but more like graphic novels by one writer - an advantage, sort of akin to writing and directing your own film.) (I'm rather picky in regards to this ability, since I suck at it and it frustrates me no end. The lack of depth perception probably has something to do with this - that and my problems with any game involving balls, and well driving. Yet, I'm cursed with the ability to notice when proportion and perspective are off, just not the ability to be able to tell why they are off. This is why Denham makes me crazy as an artist - I can tell he's off, but can't quite explain how.)
If you want to read something like what Willingham is attempting to pull off? Pick up Frank Miller's Sin City, or better yet a Hellblazer comic book. Actually, Hellblazer - is a better fit. And better written to boot.
If you want more Angel and Spike? Save your money, save your time, your binder or shelf or cardboard box space, and energy - not to mention blood pressure and wait for Brian Lynch's Spike Unlimited comic coming out in the summer. From what I've read, Lynch and the IDW editors have chosen not to make the Spike Unlimited comic directly based on the Willingham story, but to let it be its own animal. As for Connor? Read fanfic instead. Although he doesn't necessarily come across that badly here, Connor admittedly isn't that hard to write - because the writers didn't give us enough of the character to really know which way he'd tumble, but the other characters will drive you up the wall, as will the lack of snark, which was an important ingredient in the series.
2. Cleaned. Which included doing something I've been putting off for well like forever. I threw out my collection of cassett or music tapes. This was a heavy box, filled with well over 1000 tapes, most of which dated back 20-30 years. I stopped listening to them when I got the ipod and CD's. And well, my tape player, much like my VCR went kablooey. That got thrown out too - the tape player, not the VCR (VCR was thrown out about five-six years ago). Had interesting conversation with landlord about this...he was busy reinstalling the pigeon defense grid - ie plastic spikes to keep pigeons off the roof and away from my window. One of the spikes apparently fell off.
Landlord: Oh, I have a collection of tapes I got to get rid of myself. Including, *cough*Culture Club*cough*.
Me: Yep, I have that too. As well as all the bootlegged tapes of the Grateful Dead - my ex-boyfriend was a groupie. Actually, I have all the 60's, 70's and 80's music on tape, along with music sang by college friends. But I can't listen to it anymore - the tape has degraded.
Landlord: Grateful Dead? Cool!! (he looks at me as if I'm nuts for getting rid of them. Sigh. Yes, Ex-college boyfriend was a dead-head, what can I say? Also a philosophy major and singer - which turned out to be a deadly combination and something I was incredibly attracted to, until he permanently broke me of the habit.) I listened to mine a while back on a walkman.
ME: I stopped around the time, I got the ipod and well Cd's have taken their place. A bit more durable. (Pause) You know you are getting old when you can remember a time when you taped things and there were no CD's or MP3 players.
Landlord: Or you can remember 45s.
Me: Oh yeah 45s. Or how about when there wasn't an internet. Wasn't email. And the Mac was a huge computer with a tiny screen and sort of useless for anything but word processing.
(Sigh, sometimes, not always, but sometimes - I truly miss those days. The fact that 50-60% of the people reading this have no clue what I'm talking about and no memory of cassett recorders or a time that MP3 players did not exist...boggles my mind. Actually, I find it pretty mind-boggling that there are people online who don't know what it was like not to have an internet or email. When you had to fax everything and all phones were landlines. Funny, I don't feel old. Well, except for the creaks whenever I get up in the morning. I really miss the days in which I could pop out of bed without sitting for five minutes rolling shoulders and flexing neck, so I didn't end up with a charley-horse.)
Getting rid of the tapes wasn't as painful as I thought. Actually sort of freeing. I was becoming allergic to that box in my bedroom.
3. After all the cleaning, which included more than just getting rid of the tapes - was an all day affair, I decided to enjoy the lovely weather and ran errands. Walked up to neighborhood comic shop, which was mobbed with the stereotypical comic book buyer - heavyset, bearded dudes, and little boys (as in ten - twelve and able to crawl under tables, and who come up to my knee or waist. I more or less stood out, being the only woman in the joint - outside of the pretty girl at the desk. There were a few women who came in after me, but not for the comics, more as companions to the guys or their sons. It was free comic book day.
Anyhow...I realized reading through the offerings, that most comics (not all obviously) are in some respects the equivalent of a male romance novel. This is a term I coined after seeing the Frank Miller flick Sin City based on Miller's comic of the same name - which was all the rage back in 1980s, but I found rather derivative and ignored, even though comic book shop boy was literally begging me to try it. For Buffy fans - Sin City is notable in one respect - it is how the writer's came up with the back story for Spike's leather jacket, they borrowed the idea from Miller's Sin City. So if you hate that back story, think the whole Nikki/Spike bit is offensive and a lot of people do, you might want to skip Frank Miller's graphic novels.
Darker and more graphic than the worst Raymond Chandler offering, (don't get me wrong, I like Raymond Chandler, was weaned on Chandler). These comics, which I like to call noir horror or noir crime - and they have a special category in the store all their own, are all pretty much a like. And few if any are written by women - for much the same reason that few if any female romance novels are written by men, I suspect. This unfortunately bodes true of the other comics as well, not just the noir ones. Even comics that are based on books by women or stories by women have been adapted by men. There was one that was free - which was based on a woman's YA sci-fantasy novel - but adapted by a guy.
I bought the only comic I could find in the whole store that was written by a woman, granted didn't look at all the bound and expensive volumes, just the magazine issues. The store was crowded since it was free comic day.
This is by way of an introduction to my perusal of all of Bill Willingham's Angel comics in the comic store. As noted in an earlier post - the IDW editor Mariah H, got me curious about the comics. So thought I'd check them out, see what all the hubbub was about for myself.
What did I think? Short version? Well, I guess it is notable that although I did actually buy two comic books today, Willingham's Angel books were not amongst them.
I didn't exactly read them in depth or anything, I perused or scanned them. Not that it matters, deep and layered, these things are not. Fables actually is more layered. If you really want to read Willingham - I'd suggest delving into Fables - it's better written and drawn, not to mention a bit more creative. Willingham is not a good fanfic writer. Or hired gun. He definitely does not have a future in television writing. He reminds me a bit of Frank Miller, actually, yet not as subtle or creative. So, if you like this stuff - skip Willingham completely and spend your money on Miller and Moore. There's a reason Miller and Moore have hit mainstream stores, and Willingham remains on the fringes.
Regarding Spike's arc in the comics? Don't really see one to be honest. He basically has a cameo, he shows up, says something that is supposed to be witty and isn't. Does something that is supposed to be witty and isn't. And acts more or less like Philip Marlow in one of Raymond Chandler's darker novels - Farewell My Lovely - I think it was called. Can't remember. Was made into a movie at some point. A bad movie. Or one of Frank Miller's characters in Sin City - the epitome of the male romance novel. Willingham excels at male romance, but is not very good at wit. Wit is admittedly hard to do well. Not everything can pull it off. Say what you will about Brian Lynch - but he's definitely witty and rather good at satire. He has the same self-deprectating, psuedo sardonic/satiric wit that Whedon and Fury excelled at in the series. Which is why the only Angel/Spike comics that I will read are by Brian Lynch. I'm ignoring everyone else.
As for Spike's behavior?
It didn't bother me. Of course, I'd already read everyone's rants on it. So I was expecting something a lot worse than what I read. One of the benefits of reading reviews first, I suppose. I can see why it bothers other people. But I've read a lot of these types of comics, and novels not to mention seen a lot of noir films and tv shows in my lifetime - and I happen to work in a field where men are, shall we say, a bit on the crude side - heck, I work in a building where I share an elevator ride with ex-cons who masturbate in the elevator - while they travel to the fifth floor for transistional services aka art therapy.
Is it in character? Yes and no. [I admittedly have a view of Spike that appears to be somewhere to the right of the die-hard Spike shippers and to the left of the die-hard Spike haters, yet I ship the character violently. This makes my life as a Spike shipper fraught with frustration and peril. I have to be careful what I say or I get blasted by one or both parties (yes that's possible, trust me, and not pleasant - please don't do it now or I will delete you). I also have the wildly unpopular opinion in some quarters, wherein I think that Angel did far worse and still does far worse than anyone else ever has - the series has backed me up on that point. Spike to me, at any rate, always appeared to be a bit of a heroic foil to Angel's anti-hero - another view that I realize contrasts greatly with a lot of people online, who for reasons that continue to bewilder and amuse me, appear to see the exact opposite. Apparently...they did not understand the line in School Hard - where Spike makes it clear that Angel was his Yoda - ie. Angel taught Spike everything he knew and how to do it. What do you think a yoda is? The whole point - is that Angel was the worst vampire that ever lived. That's why Buffy and Angel are star-crossed lovers. Hero/Anti-hero. Get it? If they were both heroes, there wouldn't be a problem. That was the whole S2 character arc.]
My difficulty with the characterization in the comics has less to do with what Spike physically does (like I said above, it reminds me of a Raymond Chandler novel except with vampires), and more well to do with what he says while he's doing it.
Willingham doesn't appear to understand snark or for that matter know how to do it. (see above). From what I've seen of Willingham and Williams online? My guess is these guys take themselves far too seriously and have rather fragile egos. Freelance writing in comics - is not the easiest, most rewarding, recognized, or highest paying of writing professions. (It's the male equivalent of the Harlequinn or Regency Romance novel, or for that matter in tv terms - the daytime soap opera. All three are treated with more or less the same level of derision.) These guys would kill to get a screenplay, a directing gig, or a primetime tv show (all of which Lynch and Whedon have gotten).
Sardonic wit, self-deprecating wit, satiric wit, and gallows humor - is something you either get or you don't. I happen to love it - it's my brand of humor. I snark all the time on lj. When I get on the phone with my Dad - we have snark fests. It's a thing. One of the reasons, Spike is my favorite character is that he is so snarky. He has great one liners. And he has a sort of self-deprecating charm. In contrast, Angel tends to lack both - that dude takes himself far too seriously. Which is why Spike gets off on making fun of him. Someone has to. The humor regarding Angel - tending to be more physical than intellectual (snark), which is partly why Angel doesn't appeal to me that much. I prefer the snark. Physical humor, not all, but most, tends to make me cringe with embarrassment. Angel's bad dancing? Ew. There are episodes of that series - I just can't watch without cringing.
When Willingham attempts snark - and it's not just in regards to Spike - it comes across as well, crude low-brow jokes some of which are quite cringe-worthy. Spike was snarky not crude. There's a difference. Don't get me wrong, and someone will, I'm not saying Spike couldn't be crude. He could and was and is. But, he is mostly just snarky, with a lot of bravado, and self-deprecation. That's his coping mechanism - to make fun of everything including himself. This is hard to pull off - especially if you don't understand or like snark and self-deprecating wit. And from what I've seen online and in the Fables series? Willingham is not snarky. He takes himself and his writing far too seriously. So as a result, he tends to write the characters a bit too stiff.
The art? I'm not a fan of Denham. It's too busy. The proportions are completely off. The perspective is off. The characters move stiffly. And well, I like Jeanty's art better. Denham actually makes Jeanty look brilliant by comparison.
The dialogue? Doesn't fit the characters. Willingham just does not have their voices. Lynch, love him or hate him, did have the character's voices down. Again this has a lot to do with the fact that Willingham just isn't that witty. He's trying. But it just doesn't quite work.
The plot? Boilerplate noir. I've read it before. It could be interesting. The whole Immortality for Dummies thing and Spike making fun of prophecies bit by hiring someone to write one. That in the right hands, could be hilarious. Here? It will most likely fall flat.
So, long story short? Sorry, Mariah, the story isn't interesting enough for me to waste time, money or premium binder space on (the damn comics have to go somewhere - right now they are organized in binders...thick heavy binders), and the arc seems rather non-existent. The story you think you are producing? I don't see on the page. As a result? I didn't buy them.
Instead - I spent my hard earned cash on Felicia Day's The Guild - which does appear to be witty and hey, look, written by a woman and is about women - a novelty. And Echo by Terry Moore, who can actually figure out proportion and perspective and is possibly amongst the best artists in the field (what the Buffy comics would have been like if Moore had been drawing them! But Moore like Miller is the double-whammy, he writes and draws his stories, so they are not collaborative efforts but more like graphic novels by one writer - an advantage, sort of akin to writing and directing your own film.) (I'm rather picky in regards to this ability, since I suck at it and it frustrates me no end. The lack of depth perception probably has something to do with this - that and my problems with any game involving balls, and well driving. Yet, I'm cursed with the ability to notice when proportion and perspective are off, just not the ability to be able to tell why they are off. This is why Denham makes me crazy as an artist - I can tell he's off, but can't quite explain how.)
If you want to read something like what Willingham is attempting to pull off? Pick up Frank Miller's Sin City, or better yet a Hellblazer comic book. Actually, Hellblazer - is a better fit. And better written to boot.
If you want more Angel and Spike? Save your money, save your time, your binder or shelf or cardboard box space, and energy - not to mention blood pressure and wait for Brian Lynch's Spike Unlimited comic coming out in the summer. From what I've read, Lynch and the IDW editors have chosen not to make the Spike Unlimited comic directly based on the Willingham story, but to let it be its own animal. As for Connor? Read fanfic instead. Although he doesn't necessarily come across that badly here, Connor admittedly isn't that hard to write - because the writers didn't give us enough of the character to really know which way he'd tumble, but the other characters will drive you up the wall, as will the lack of snark, which was an important ingredient in the series.
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Date: 2010-05-03 04:24 pm (UTC)At any rate, too late now - I threw them out Sat, and today was garbag day - not to mention the fact that it was pouring this morning. So if they haven't been picked up yet? They are sopping wet.