Snarking about the Angel comics because I can't resist.

[shadowkat]

Splitting up my posts today and yesterday, partly for length and partly for content. This is the cultural post. The other was the more personal post. Didn't bother locking, because well it's not that private. I'm sort of vague.

Saw on flist plot bits about the Williams and Willingham Angel comics. Okay, does anyone else find it a bit funny that IDW hired two guys named, Bill Willingham and Bill Williams to
write the Angel comics? Especially considering the birth names of Spike and Angel are William and Liam (Irish version of William) respectively? It's almost as if they decided to get the real life versions of Spike and Angel to write these comics, (except methinks that Spike and Angel would have done a better job. Angel's a better artist, and Spike's a better writer.) Coincidence? Probably. But highly amusing all the same.

Should probably pause here and clarify a few things:

1. Outside of the first issue, I haven't really bothered with the Williams boys take on the Angelverse. Yes, it was THAT bad. Crappy art, and crappy writing. Fables it's not. Although I didn't like Fables either, but it was better written and the art was above standard comic fare. In short, me not like, me not buy. Life is too short to waste time or money on something you don't like, right?

2. I admittedly got curious about the comics again when the head editor stated that they had a plan. And a complex story arc for one of my favorite characters, aka Spike. So, I checked them out in the comic book store - to see if I'd missed anything. I didn't. So didn't waste any money on them. The story was clearly written for 12 year old boys with a low-brow and somewhat sexist, and definitely adolescent sense of humor. It's called Immortality for Dummies and features the amazing misadventures of Connor the wonderboy! (If you liked Connor in Angel S4 and think he was pod!Connor in S5, I wouldn't recommend the comics - which are basically told from pod!Connor's perspective and appear to be written by pod!Connor and drawn by Andrew.)

3. I pretty much view the comics, regardless of who is writing them or producing them as a type of fanfic, similar to Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. It's basically a series of what-if scenarios, some better written than others. With one major difference - unlike fanfic, I can actually analyze, make fun of, criticize and review the comics without worrying about the writer's friends acting as if I killed their favorite puppy. Part of the reason for this - is well, the comic book writer and artist is being paid. Granted not all that much. But still. And the other reason? We have to pay for it - which means we should review it to protect poor unsuspecting souls from wasting their hard earned pennies on this stuff. Fanfic? Free. And yes, I know, some people think the comics are canonical to the tv series. I've yet to hear a convincing argument on this. I'm sorry, but Whedon is not God, he's the Wizard of OZ.

That said, I do have my preferences regarding the comics. I will read and take as comic Angelverse canon anything written by Brian Lynch and in some cases, Peter David. But no one else. Peter David did Angel Only Human - the Illyria/Gunn mini-series. And gave Spike - the only vampire to date, outside of Harmony and Webs, an actual last name. David's Spike is a bit too good for my taste, but what can you do? I don't buy any of the other writers comics at IDW.
And I won't. But I will make fun of whatever bits I hear about them.

As for the Buffy comics? I will most likely still read anything written by Whedon, even if the guy has gotten a bit creepy for my taste - a little sexual violence goes a long long way.
And anything drawn by Joan Chen. Also, more or less anything written by Drew Goddard.
Brian K. Vaughn and Doug Petrie were also not that bad. Jane Espenson was okay. The rest?
No way in heck. Brad Meltzer? You couldn't pay me to read - well you could, but the going rate is five billion.

Now that the clarifying is over with...the latest plot spoiler from the Angel comics is...
wait for it...Spike is acting like a jerk or berk, because he lost his soul. Okay. Apparently
Spike without a soul is just a womanizing, snarky, jealous, narcissitic show-off who saves people to make himself look good - hmmm reminds me of some famous actors and writers who shall remain nameless...does this mean they don't have souls? Did Mel Gibson lose his soul sometime around the filming of The PAssion - because that would explain a lot, wouldn't it? While Angel without a soul - is a psychotic killer who pulls hearts out of women, and kills people. Good to know. What throws me is that somehow Spike lost his soul without noticing that he did? Alrighty then. The soul drove him nuts in S7 and plagued him in S5 Angel, it's the thing that he worked so hard to obtain, it burned so badly, and it is how he burned up in flames - yet he doesn't notice when it what disappears??? Yeah, right. Also he's apparently asking Hollywood to write him a prophecy that makes him the hero who gets the girl - a prophecy that ironically looks a lot like what Whedon is doing in the Buffy comics? Are we supposed to take these things seriously? I doubt it. It sounds like a complete parody to me.

Other bit that read on flist...apparently someone on Whedonesque thinks Angelus would make a sophisticated and talented lover? My reaction? Well yeah, if you happen to be a masochist who is into heavy BSM, or a sadist for that matter. If so, may I recommend the works of the Marquis de Sade?

Comments

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

Sounds like the famous writing and art team of Ann Onimus and Doe Johns. If Bill and Bill aren't pseudonyms they ought to be. ;o)

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

will read and take as comic Angelverse canon anything written by Brian Lynch and in some cases, Peter David. But no one else. Peter David did Angel Only Human - the Illyria/Gunn mini-series.

So does this mean you finally got to read Only Human? You hadn't as of a few months back when I had mentioned how much I enjoyed that series. I felt it had very good art, excellent writing and the characters all behaved as I would expect them to based on the TV series as precedent, especially Illyria.

Illyria is not a just another human woman with superpowers, Will-Will. Get a grip already!

Oop, too late... Run, Connor, run!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

So does this mean you finally got to read Only Human?

Nope. But I trust yours and Londonkds's take on it. You both appear to be on the same page I am in regards to the IDW comics.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

The good news is that Willingham is done writing the book after #38. So three more issues.

Wanna know what's sad? I have a friend who wrote a spec script for IDW. It was a Wes/Illyria comic set during late Season 5. It was good. I've read it and it was awesome (reading the comic script, it actually made me tear up--from the script alone!) Like, this could've been Lynch Spike: Asylum good. Hell, maybe even better.

The artist Mooney wanted to draw it, Lynch was a fan and raving about it, but the IDW boss rejected it. Why? Because ANGEL is they're biggest title and they need big names.

Someone needs to slap them upside the head and explain to them that famous writers doesn't equal good Whedonverse writers. Whedon himself knows this. He hired Drew Goddard and Drew Greenberg when they were relatively unknown. From what I can tell, they didn't have any regular TV jobs before BtVS. I think Drew Greenberg was a lawyer who decided to give it a go with writing and got hired off a spec script for BtVS. Anyways, point being that you don't look for famous writers for this type of gig. You look for the right script/writer that fits the Whedonverse style of story. Being a famous writer doesn't mean you can write well in the Whedonverse.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

That really is sad. Especially when a unknown writer who is really a fan could do so much better.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Big names only matter if they're the original TV writers. And ultimately, the only name that matters is Whedon. Otherwise, it's best to hire because a writer demonstrates they can write a great Whedonverse story.

IDW failure yet again.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Actually this is sort of typical of the comic/graphic novel industry - which is quite different than television. With TV - if you think about it, the only writers the audience is aware of are the show-runners. Do you really pick tv shows based on who is writing them? (Outside of maybe Whedon - who was a show-runner.) People tend to pick them by what actor happens to be in them. Few people follow tv writers or even know their names.

But book writers? A whole other story. How many times do you purchase or pick up a book by an author you've never heard of or hadn't read before?
And how many people do? Look at the NY Times Bestseller List - 90% of those titles are by writers who have been on the list before and are popular. Think about your flist - how many recommend new writers? Jim Butcher wasn't even in book stores for the first five novels, people got them on Amazon or by word of mouth. We had to hunt. James Marsters changed that - by doing the audio books. Then he finally hit the Best-seller list and the bookstores.

Same deal with comic books. They don't have the same audience as tv. It's also not as collaborative. The writer is more visible. When you pick up a comic book in a store - you check out who wrote it and drew it.
If you talk to people who frequent comic book stores - they will talk about the writers and artists. If a book is signed by a particular writer or artist? It can be worth a lot of money - sometimes upwards of $1000, depending on the writer. Writers in comic book land are a bit like actors in tv land. Also the comic book audience is different than the tv audience, it's smaller for one thing, and very nitch. The people who read comics - care most about who the writer/artist is.

Example: a lot of people picked up Astonishing X-Men not because it was the X-men, but because Joss Whedon was writing them. Whedon was NOT an established X-men writer or a comic book writer - but he was a famous writer, beloved by comic book fans. If your friend wrote the Astonishing X-men - I doubt anyone would buy it. It would be a "tough" sale.
People don't want to spend money on something that isn't a known quantity - or at least that's how marketing departments think.

How do we market this? How do we sell it?

IDW is a small time press - who needs names to sell their comics. Angel comics isn't going to sell based on its title alone. Even Wonder Woman - they got a best-selling female novelist to boost sales. That's another thing, comics aren't selling that well - they are always hunting ways to boost sales. So they go after established writers with a built in fanbase.

This is no different than book publishing. If you want to get a romance novel or sci-fi/fantasy novel published - you are more likely to get noticed if you can prove that you have a huge fan following either an on-line one via fanfic or are known elsewhere. Why do you think William Shatner gets published and has books sold? Because he's William Shatner and Trek fans will pick up his books. It's not fair, but hey - that's Capitalism.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I agree about how that typically works with books. But for IDW, their sales has continued to fall. And I really doubt Willingham's fans are buying his ANGEL comic unless they're already fans of ANGEL.

It seems to me that again, this comic is about TV fans buying it. And because that's the case, they need to rethink it. Because they're showing they're incapable of hiring famous writers who can actually write the 'verse.

As for Brian Lynch, wasn't he relatively unknown to comics? I think he'd written a Muppets script that I don't know if it ever became anything real. And he'd perhaps had his own online comic that he'd been running.

In theory, I understand the marketing. But they're killing the quality of their product.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

But even if you are marketing it to tv fans - you still need writers who will draw them in. Unknowns don't work. I'm not going to pick up a comic book written by an unknown, I'll flip through it first.
And when the Williams boys were first announced? There was a lot of excitement and anticipation...due to who they were.

Hey, don't signal out IDW here - Whedon and Dark Horse did the same thing when they hired best-selling novelist and DC comic scribe Brad Meltzer (who is not known to tv fans but is known to comic book and science fiction pulp fans) as co-plotter and writer. And Meltzer is just as bad as Willingham in my opinion. Possibly worse. Also, Jeff Loeb - big comic book name. And Brian K. Vaughn - also big comic book name. That's Allie's job to get big names. All the writers on that were pretty much big names.
They didn't have any unknowns.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

My perspective is that the name that brings in TV fans is the title itself. Most fans have no clue who Jane Espenson or Doug Petrie or Brian K. Vaughan are.

When it comes to the Whedonverse, your name doesn't matter much at all unless you're Whedon. But because we're talking about TV fans, the only name that does matter is the title itself. I bought AtF never having heard of Lynch. Granted, it also had Whedon's name on it. But I later bought the other titles though I'd never read anything by them, nor ever heard of Willingham before this point. I don't really care that he's a big deal with Fables.

The most important name for a comic licensed for a TV show is the title itself. And if it doesn't have Whedon's name on it, then all other names are just as suspect unless you're an uber fan who also knows who Jane, Doug, and the Drews are.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

True. But how many of the comic book readers are solely tv fans?
A lot of the tv fans wouldn't touch a comic book with a ten foot pole. (Which always amused me.)

The people producing the comics know that they can't just market the comics to "tv fans" but to tv fans who are also comic fans.
I remember when the writers were announced - their comic credentials were often mentioned. Sure there were tv writers in the list, but it is notable that the main plotters were comic writers. And Whedon didn't attempt it until he had a comic book fan base - via Astonishing, Runaways, and Sugar Shock. Granted most of that fan base were cross-over. A high percentage of comic book fans love Whedon. I'm guessing at least 50-60 percent of those who actually buy the Whedon comics have read comics before or pay attention. There are quite a few people who loved Willingham's Fables (I know - they are on my flist) but - it is probably worth stating that not all of them picked up Whedon's Buffy comics or Willingham's Angel.

At any rate - we don't really know who buys these things percentage wise. But I'm guessing IDW and Dark Horse do know - that's their business after all. They can get demographic info from distributors and have marketing people on whedonesque, twitter, etc. And having read the interviews and whedonesque, a high percentage of the fans are well, comic fans and were comic fans prior to Buffy and do pay attention to who the writer is and if it's a name comic book writer. And I remember people getting excited when Kelley Armstrong was announced - she was a favorite writer for some fans. And people getting excited when it was announced Brian Lynch was writing the Angel After the Fall series, because they were devoted fans of his Spike miniseries. (I know I was, and I can name quite a few others who were as well.)

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

I'm crushed :(

Apparently, Spike and nobody else around him not noticing the lack of soul is a plot point (according to Mariah Huehner, IDW editor). And then what, Angel will help restoring Spike's soul? How lame is that! Angel is the hero again and saves Spike the damsel in distress. Or the purpose of Willow's visit in the new shiny Spike series (Lynch, Urru) is again soul related?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

From what I've read via fenderlove's postings on the Spike comic and links to Brian Lynch's Q&A, the Spike comic is not linked in any way to the Willingham story and it appears that Lynch is disassociating himself with that storyline completely. The only writer Lynch appears to be interested in following is Whedon. Lynch unlike Willingham is actually a fan of Whedon's, to the point of worship, and a huge fan of Spike and the Whedonverse. Willingham is a big comic book name who could care less - ie. a gun for hire.

Not sure Willow re-souling Spike works - since he didn't get his soul via magical means - ie, not by witch-craft.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I agree about the Angel comics at the moment, though I can't really fathom all that much outrage. The comic is just not enjyoable, the voices are wrong.

And even if the "not noticing" thing has an explanation (as MH promised) that still doesn't take away the fact that he's OOC for soulless Spike as well and that the whole idea is such a complete Jack of Fables ripoff that Willingham would probably sue for plagiarism if anyone else had written it.

(on a sidenote: It's Jo Chen, it's not a nickname or anything)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

(on a sidenote: It's Jo Chen, it's not a nickname or anything)

It was actually just typo of sorts. I keep confusing her with the Chinese American actress Joan Chen, who I think was last seen in the tv series Twin Peaks. Although may be wrong about that.

I agree about the Angel comics at the moment, though I can't really fathom all that much outrage. The comic is just not enjyoable, the voices are wrong.

Except to snark at - quite enjoyable from that perspective. I really enjoy making fun of them. I'm not outraged. I just like snarking at things. ;-)

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well I don't think Joss EVER said that all these comics coming out of IDW were canon, in fact I thought I heard him say he hasn't even read any of them.
Joss had said that Brian Lynch's 'Angel' series was canon because Joss himself plotted it, but he has had no input into any of the rest of these comics (which I have personally found to be inferior: not true to the characters AND not very interesting stories).

Although I get that you don't think Joss' input necessarily makes it canon, but I'm just saying that Joss' total lack of any input definitely means that it ISN'T canon.

However I will be reading (and I'm sure enjoying) Brian Lynch's upcoming series SPIKE which will begin on October 20, 2010 (you might mention it to your comic book guy to be sure he pre-orders it!).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Although I get that you don't think Joss' input necessarily makes it canon

No, what I said is that none of the comics are canonical to the television series regardless of Joss says.

See? For it to be canonical to the television series, you'd have to have the input of EVERYONE principally involved. Which you don't. TV is not a soul person enterprise. It's not like Jim Butcher writing a comic based on the Dresden novels - that is Definitely canon.
While the tv series based on the Dresden novels is definitely not, unless Butcher wrote them. Here you have a team of a hundred people - can't do it.

So basically the Buffy comics are Joss Whedon's take on how that series would continue, with massive input from Brad Meltzer and Scott Allie and George Jeanty.
Hardly canonical to the tv series. Be a bit like saying
Rockne S. O'Bannion's Farscape comics are canonical to Farscape. Or the Star Trek comics are canonical to tv or the Battle Star Galatica ones are.

Two mediums can't continue organically from each other, it ain't possible.

So, no, telling me that they are canon because Joss Whedon says so, does not wash. Because I don't see Whedon as the god of the buffy verse, but rather the Wizard of the Buffyverse.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Screwed up on response above. Busy, busy.

While the tv series based on the Dresden novels is definitely not, unless Butcher wrote them. Here you have a team of a hundred people - can't do it.

Actually that wouldn't even work as canon, because actors interpret the author's work and you have producers, etc. So even if the original novelist is writing the film or tv show from his series - it would still be "based" on, or a what-if scenario. Not a true continuation.


So, no, telling me that they are canon because Joss Whedon says so, does not wash. Because I don't see Whedon as the god of the buffy verse, but rather the Wizard of the Buffyverse.

Or rather one of many gods and many Wizards. People give Whedon far too much credit, forgetting tv shows are a collaboration of over a hundred people. Farscape was better about this - the writers and actors acknowledged that it was a group effort, possibly a cultural thing - Australia is less into the star hierarchy and diva complex than we are.

[buffyangellvr23.livejournal.com]

Why couldn't one medium continue into another?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

They can continue into another.

Hmmm, how to explain?

Okay, after George Lucas did the Star Wars films, people wrote novels about what would happen next. The story has continued in another format. Here Whedon has decided to take the Buffy series into comics to continue the story. What Whedon has done is no different than say a Alan Dean Foster writing stories about what happens next in the Star Wars universe, or Rockne S. Obannion writing what happens next in the Farscape, or Brian Lynch writing what happens next in Angelverse or Willingham for that matter.
All are legitimate stories. All are continuations. Fanfic? Same deal - they are that writer's take on what would happen next.

Canon? Doesn't exist from this point forward. You can say it is canonical to Joss Whedon/Brad Meltzer/Scott Allie/and George Jeanty's vision of how it would continue, with Drew Goddard, Doug Petrie, Brian K. Vaughn, Jeff Loeb, and Jane Espenson contributing. But it is not a continuation of what the cast, crew, writers and producers of the tv series would envision. Same deal with IDW - the Angel comics are canonical to the writer writing them.

Does that make sense? Canon discussions can be head-ache inducing because everyone defines it differently, apparently. So we end up arguing about semantics.