New River Icon!

[shadowkat]

Hee. Got a new Doctor River Song icon, which I cropped from a screenshot that beer_good_foamy posted. Not perfect, but not all that bad either. This is rather nifty actually. Time was I was quietly shipping Doctor River Song and Doctor Song/Doctor Who all by my lonesome. If other people were doing it - they either weren't on my flist or they were being quiet about it like I was. It was uncool to ship River after Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead - because you got attacked. I have a tendency to ship characters that piss other people off. It's a thing. ;-)

Not sure how anyone can dislike River - it may have something to do with a comment CW made a while back - she told me that she didn't like tough warrior women characters, she felt that they were fanboy creations and offensive and not really women. They were women trying to be men (I tried not to bristle at this somewhat conservative, limiting and rigid pov. It should be noted that CW is conservative (from a Brit perspective - ultra conservative, from an American perspective, Moderately conservative and is the one who suggested I read Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead for the great female characters (sigh), adored the Lost ending (it validated her world-view and belief system - while I thought it was a bit silly and cliche), is a fan of the first George Bush and Ronald Regan (who I'm convinced destroyed our economy and aided in global warming, amongst other evils), and thinks Buffy was for tween girls...enuf said. In short - we're good friends in spite of our differences in opinion.) I did, after a few moments, analyze why she felt the way she did and I felt the way I did, and came to a meeting of minds on the matter. I get where she's coming from - she feels that women are strong in other ways, and there is a clear difference between gender and to overlook that is demeaning. But CW is also shorter than I am, different body type, has a background as a dancer and football rally girl. While I'm tall and was athletic in a more traditionally masculain way - I can't dance, can't do gymnastics, and pursued track and field, and swimming in school. I have a big bone structure. For me, men and women are equals in all things.
ALL THINGS. And the distinctions are in our own minds. I think..we just see it differently. And maybe I'm doing us both an injustice trying to understand why?

Off to watch In Plain Sight, and hopefully get to bed early. Slept poorly the last two nights. And it's affecting the brain.

Comments

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I'm trying hard not to be too fannish about Doctor Who in general, but I can't help liking the new batch, including River Song from back when. Some of my teen daughter's friends were not too happy about River for a couple of reasons very different from CW. One, they say they don't like the Doctor to be paired with anybody, thinking that he should be above all that romance hooey, I suppose. (However, I suspect that some of them were Rose/Ten shippers.) Also, they were annoyed that she seemed to sometimes know better than the Doctor (driving the TARDIS, knowing the future), which is precisely half of what I appreciate most about her.

I read a little meta from someone saying that they thought she was written in a way that was offensive to women, by saying in The Impossible Astronaut how young she was when she met him, and that she fears the day that the Doctor won't know her more than her own death, and that it will kill her. (Which we already know it does.) The argument went that this speech somehow indicates that she spends all her time pining for some man. I don't think this argument holds a lot of water, because whatever she says, we see her doing a whole heckuva lot of things that indicate independence and a life outside the Doctor: archeology, inventing(?) hallucinogenic lipstick, traveling all over time and space with or without the Doctor along for the ride, leading armies, being a BAMF and a merciless markswoman. IDEK.

I think the "not really liking strong women" is fairly close to the issue for some people, but liking the Doctor to be even stronger might be part of it for others. *salutes River Song*

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Also, they were annoyed that she seemed to sometimes know better than the Doctor (driving the TARDIS, knowing the future), .

I've read this complaint online and it is very hard for me to understand it and not be offended. Like you, this is precisely what I love most about River. That she is equal to the Doctor and he is not above her. But then, I want a female Doctor. Doctor Who has always felt incredibly sexist to me. This all knowing male character who deigns to let a human woman travel around space and time with him, until the day comes in which she should go back to earth, find a nice hubby and get married like women should.

I've had this argument with women all my life. I remember my mother getting furious with Phil Donahue for stating if women aren't career oriented...blah, blah. But for me? I think we should be able to do anything, just as men should. Not strictly defined in one role. The sky's the limit. If there is a male Doctor Who, why not a female one? After all Ginger Rodgers could do everything Fred Astair did, but backwards and in high heels.
Why shouldn't River know the Tardis? And wouldn't it be cool that she teaches him how to run it, only to have him teach her?

After all only men can be The Doctor? WHY????

I read a little meta from someone saying that they thought she was written in a way that was offensive to women, by saying in The Impossible Astronaut how young she was when she met him, and that she fears the day that the Doctor won't know her more than her own death, and that it will kill her. (Which we already know it does.)

I think I read the same meta and I wholeheartedly agree with you. It ignores all the details. River doesn't die because of him, does she? She sacrifices herself to save him, Donna, and everyone. And by doing so enables him to save the thousands of people trapped in the Library. She trades her life for theirs. That's not quite the same thing.

Also we don't know how old River is when she sacrifices herself.
She tells the Doctor they have a long history and there's a lot to come.

(However, I suspect that some of them were Rose/Ten shippers.)

Yes, I see a lot of that. Although Rose got her Doctor and her universe. That was a neat way of getting resolving that ship - I thought, neatly out of the way. (I was admittedly not a fan of either Rose Tyler or the ship, for much the same reasons I don't like Bangle. Which I won't bore you with.)

I think the "not really liking strong women" is fairly close to the issue for some people, but liking the Doctor to be even stronger might be part of it for others. *salutes River Song*

Agreed. I've noticed this in a lot of fan threads. It's not the fanboys that have troubles with strong female characters, but the fangurls. Almost as if the tough/strong female character threatens them. They can't identify? I don't understand it.
I am sometimes more offended and upset by their response than the male response (which is expected). I think, ladies, if you can't appreciate and applaud a strong female character...

This is weird, it said my log-in cookie disappeared and wouldn't let me post in my own lj.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Apparently Joanna Lumley played the Doctor on some fabulous Comic Relief thing that aired when the show was off air, but we Yanks never get to see it. Boo! (Also Richard E. Grant, which I want to see, badly.)

THEORY THAT MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS: One of the possible identities for the "little girl" is "regenerated Doctor". Doubtful, but possible!

We discuss the possibility of a female Doctor at our house, lots. Would be cool. Cooler than bow ties.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I love your icon... I love having icons that capture the character in character... really expressing who they are (and yours does that).

And I find it frustrating when people want to say what women are... we are individuals! There are a lot of women who want to be housewives, and I hope those women can be, but they have no right to decide that that is what all women should be... If someone wants to fight in the Army, or box, or do anything else that has been traditional 'men's work' then they should have the individuals right to do son....

And I appreciate TV shows that reflect that individuality instead of wanting to show only 'womanly women'.