Game of Thrones - Episode 9
Jun. 13th, 2011 10:14 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatAt work today, I spoke with a co-worker who had just finished listening to all 26 CDs of Game of Thrones which he'd borrowed from the Library. But they didn't have the next books in the series and asked if I'd loan him Clash of Kings. I said - I have all the books, but haven't read the fourth one yet. I take breaks between them - they are incredibly Grim. He responded - "grim and violent." Yeah, that too. He's decided the hero is Ayra. He also likes Tyrion and Jon Snow.
Saw True Blood S3, second to last episode last night - the S3 finale is next week I think. Game of Thrones is better, or a least more enjoyable, but that's only because it's not a soap opera, and True Blood is such a soap opera. Soap Operas have multiple subplots that have nothing to do with one another. They might come together, but usually not. And without fail, there's at least two subplots that are incredibly dull. All are about romantic relationships or lack thereof. There's little plot outside of emotional arcs. And often you feel as if the writers are just throwing stuff at the screen to see what fits. It can be fun, because it is so unpredictable. I mean how can you predict a story where the plot is basically whatever the writer thinks is cool or which pairing turns the writer on at any given moment? Buffy at times felt like a soap opera - for some of the same reasons. It wasn't plotted out that far ahead of time and it was basically whatever fit the theme. I enjoy the art form for what it is, but it can drag at times - particularly when you are on a subplot that you don't care about - and you wish they'd get back to the one you do. (Example - last night? They were spending all this time on Jason and Crystal - who I find boring, and Jessica and Hoyt (who even more boring) and Arlene and Terry and the witch (which are just sort of silly) - when I wanted to go back to Sam, Tara, and Eric and King Russell. Game of Thrones in marked contrast was far more riveting, had better dialogue, and as a result more entertaining. (ie. My attention didn't wander and I didn't feel a need to fastforward because I was bored.) I won't state that Game is perfect, but it's problems are the same one's I had with the books. While other people are comparing it to other HBO series (which not even HBO does...because apples and oranges, folks, really. Fantasy isn't the same as heightened reality), I'm comparing it to the books and other fantasy genre television series that I've seen. It is actually much better than the books in some respects, or I'm enjoying a lot more. Also, I've not seen a Fantasy series that comes close to Game.
Just finished watching Game of Thrones. And, hee, certain scenes are unintentionally humorous if you have read Storm of Swords recently and know exactly what is going to happen. I was laughing my not-so-little ass off. This has been true about a lot of scenes, actually. It's sort of like watching Buffy for the fifteenth time and during the whole bit where Spike goes on about Angel being the slayer's lap dog in Surprise/Innocence, you find yourself giggling uncontrollably at the irony of it all. In some respects, being spoiled, makes certain scenes far more enjoyable.
Again, how they are interpreting the books, and what they leave in and leave out is fascinating to me. No worries, I'm not going to spoil you for anything that happens past Game outside of being really vague about it - like I am above.
* Ned Stark. According to an interview I read in TV Guide - via someone on my flist who provided a link - non-readers were shocked by the be-heading of Ned Stark. I wasn't in the books. It's foreshadowed fairly heavily actually. They also found it to be shocking...it is, to kill of a lead character, the character that many fans may have decided was the "hero" of the story. His death, if anything, should relieve fans who were concerned that this is going to be your typical hero's journey tale. It so isn't. Those guys keep getting killed off. George RR Martin doesn't subscribe to the whole honorable hero's quest motif that dwells in many a fantasy tale. It is still a difficult scene - because Martin chooses to show it to us, both here and in the books, through Ned Stark's daughter's eyes.
Interesting and somewhat ironic juxtaposition. The series begins with Ned Stark insisting that all his sons, including 10 year old Bran, watch unflinching, when he beheads a poor man who has fled the Night's Watch in terror of his life. The man confesses his sin and Ned beheads him, doesn't send him back, just kills him for the crime of Treason and he does it himself. The boys watch. And it is honorable, yet hard. A solider's duty.
Here, Ned confesses his treason - in hope that the Queen will send him to the Night's Watch, and Sansa and Ayra will be spared. It is against his better judgment. It is against his honor, but he does it - for his daughters for love. When push comes to shove, Ned Stark ironically, finally, ultimately, chooses love over honor, yet, he dies anyway - for he is right about Joffrey, there is no honor in the lad nor love for that matter. But according to Varys there isn't any in Stark's choice for King, Stannis, either. Hard men, solider's who live and die by swords.
*Aemon and Jon Snow - Ah, they used, word for word, one of my favorite scenes in the book. Was bit worried they'd leave it out. It's a deftly written scene and incredibly important. Because it echoes through the books.
In response to Jon Snow's statement that no one can possibly know what he is going through. Master Aemon tells Jon about how he had to watch from afar, and do nothing while his entire family was butchered. He had given up the throne to his brother, whose son Aerys inherited it, the Mad King. And watched as well - Jon's family and the other's killed his brother's sons, and his brother, and their children, small babies. He choose honor over love. Duty over love. He told Jon, every man has too. He said it was easy to choose these things when nothing was at stake - it was easy for Ned Stark to be honorable, to choose duty - when his children's lives weren't at stake, but when they are? And Jon assumes this, choosing honor is always the right thing to do. Master Aemon tells him that what he chooses, whatever it is - he, Jon, must learn to live with it. Either way. As Master Aemon has.
It's an ironic scene. Because Ned Stark and Twyin Lannister are in effect going through what they put the Tarragyrn's through years ago. Karma is circling around to bite them, where they least expect it.
What will Jon choose...to fight with Rob, or to stick to his duty, his choice?
*Catelynn - I loved Catelynn's scenes, far more here than in the books, they made me laugh. Although to be honest, I sort of forgot about them. So, they were new to me. Particularly her scene with her son after negotiating with Walder Frey. "You have to marry one of his daughters."
Rob: "Have you seen them...are they?"
Catelynn: "Uh, one is. Do you agree?"
Rob: Can I say no?
Catelynn: Not if you want to cross.
And of course they win against Jamie Lannister - although barely. They left a bunch of stuff out - some of it rather important. Wonder if they'll add it later? Jamie kills two sons of one of the Stark bannermen, the Bannerman wants Jamie's head or executed for it. Robb chooses not to behead Jamie, or execute him, because they can use him to bargain for Ned Stark and well the two daughters - Sansa and Ayra. But Karstark wants Jamie dead, vengeance for his sons - who Jamie killed honorably in battle. Robb wisely chooses not to kill Jamie, but this is a sticking point that causes a lot of problems later...so curious if they will add it later, it is sort of important. I suppose they could - they don't really talk about it in front of Jamie, they talk about it amongst themselves.
(You have to keep in mind - all information is passed by either raven or messenger boys, if either gets stopped, no one knows anything. At least not quickly.) Jamie actually slew his way up to Robb and Robb barely defeated him, if it weren't for a couple of men ahead of Robb - Robb would have been killed by Jamie. Hence the reason, Robb tells Jamie - he's not dumb enough to engage in armed combat with Jamie of all people, even a wounded and bloody Jamie. Unfortunately they didn't capture Jamie sooner - and pass the word down faster - it may have made a difference if they had. As it is - they appear to have done it at the same time that Joffrey chose to kill Ned Stark.
The Frey negotiation and what was decided during it? I rather enjoyed. Catelynn sells two of her children to Lord Frey to cross the Trident and fight Jamie. She chooses Honor and Duty over Love. She does the opposite of her husband. As does Robb. They figure it's not going to be a problem.
*Jamie - I loved this speech in the book and they do take it out word for word, letter for letter - I know I read it before I watched the episode, because I thought it took place in Clash of Kings, but apparently not. I can't remember most of Clash of Kings...except that it was long and had one too many battle scenes.
Jamie - I'd lay down my sword for you lady, but I've lost my sword. (It's buried in the skull of Lord Karstark's sons - I think)
Catelynn - I don't want your sword - I want my husband and my daughters.
Jamie - I'm afraid I've lost them too.
*Cersei - comes across far more sympathetically here than the books. I've decided it is deliberate. Cersei was a problem in the books, she was written a bit too one-dimensional villain. Here, they've changed her a bit. She admits to having a crush on Robert that isn't all that different from Sansa's early crush on Joffrey (which is dead now). Poor Sansa - unlike Ayra - she wasn't protected from seeing her father die brutally. She saw it up close and personal. No one protected her from it - although to be fair of Cersei- here, Cersei didn't appear to see it coming. She is obviously shocked and upset about it - and you see her arguing with her son after he commands it. It was not what she would have done. In the book - this isn't that clear. No, Cersei is a bit different here - which is a good thing. Very good thing. Huge improvement over the book.
*Ayra - I had forgotten that Ned Stark exchanged looks with Yoren (who looks a bit like Bronn and Jory and I got confused with them in the previous episodes) in the book. Anyhow, he manages to get Yoren to shield his daughter from his execution. (I think I did cry during the Ayra scene in the books, and I almost did here - even though spoiled, and even though I was annoyed by Ned. But his last two scenes are well played by Scean Bean, very well played and your heart does go out to him. He's so trapped. And he is actually right...Joffrey should not be King.)
*Varys - the Opening scene between Varys and Ned Stark is a work of beauty, both cinematography and dialogue wise. The use of light, how they used the torch flame, was brilliant. And I love Varys monologue - where he tells Ned Stark that he is an actor playing a role. His role is the whisperer - listening to secrets. He is supposed to be unscruplous. Without scruples. He is a good actor. But what does he want? Peace. And Ned Stark has gone out of his way to start a full-fledged War. The land was peaceful, more or less, before Ned and Catelynn started poking about. Their ill-advised quests to avenge Jon Arryn and Bran - have lead to the death of thousands.
Setting Ned free doesn't ensure peace. Varys manages to convince Ned to choose love over a solider's honor...but Varys underestimates Joffrey and has misjudged who has the power. Queen Cersei - really doesn't have much power, outside of her son...who is a sadistic creep.
*Tyrion - Ah, they chose to tell Tysha's story to both Bronn and Shae. He does tell both of them in the book. Here - they economically do it at the same time. Which is a good idea, actually. In the book - he tells Bronn while they are escaping from the Vale of Eryie, and Shae sometime later.
Here they combined the two scenes. Shae isn't at all what I had pictured - for some reason I thought she was blond and tiny, and sort of more like Roz. Here she's cleverer, harder, and more up-front with Tyrion. Making it clear - that she wants money. She also shows little sympathy for what happened with Tysha - stating somewhat bluntly - "you should have known she was a whore, a woman who is not a whore would not sleep with a man a mere two hours after she's almost been raped" (very true). Tyrion fascinates me - he's a subversion of the playful playboy that is so often in these stories.
The Playboy brother, who cracks wise, and can't fight - the fun Mercucio character. While his gruffer less pretty brother is a brilliant solider. Here, Martin does the opposite, the pretty boy, never sleeps with any woman but his sister, is celibate (as far as anyone else knows) and a brilliant fighter. While Tyrion - the not so pretty, dwarfish, brother, has the clever wit and shares the beds of well-paid whores. It's fantasy meet heighetened reality.
And it is funny in places. Tyrion is injured by being trampled by his own rag-tag crew of men. Men who want to kill each other as much as the enemy, and him for that matter. Actually he's probably in more danger of being killed by his own men than by the enemy.
His discussion with Tywin is interesting. Tywin states the Scouts were wrong - it is 2,000 men not 20,000 - the 17,000-18,000 are most likely with the kid fighting his son. I'm rather pleased that we didn't have to watch the battle - would have bored me. Battle scenes always bore me. Battle scenes and sex scenes.
*Bronn Forgotten how much I liked Bronn. Rather amusing straight man to Tyrion. Also interesting he's the one who found Shae. Shae and Bronn even look a bit a like. And the game they play is an interesting one - telling us quite a bit about Tyrion, and how out of his depth he is. He claims to be a good judge of character - yet he loses the game. He loses all the games.
*Dany - yes, we are still playing Conan the Barbarian. Although co-worker told me that when he read the books, he envisioned Attila the Hun, a Mongolian. Momoa looks more Persian to me.
I don't like the Dany scenes, I didn't like them that much in the book - thought they were silly and a bit over the top there too. Also cliche fantasy (which they are, as anyone who has read a shitload of pulp fantasy novels knows). But at least the character is growing on me. And I do rather like Ser Jorah, the prodigal/and estranged son of Lord Mormount, the Old Bear, who gives Ser Jorah sword to Jon Snow. (Again the parrallel structure - Mormount protecting and aiding and guiding/mentoring Jon Snow in the icy North, while his son protects and guides and mentors Dany in the hot South - both far from the War. I love the parallels in this story, how character's journey's reflect one another, like mirrors, and how they intertwine when you least expect it. Game is one of the best plotted books that I've read. Very tight plot structure to this novels.)
I don't trust the witch. I think she made his wound fester and wants to kill Khal. But I can't remember. I vaguely remember what happens in that arc exactly. Thought some of it happened a lot later, but apparently not.
Overall? Rather enjoyable. Liked it better than last week's actually. Last week's seemed a bit slow in places and not as well paced. Martin - I think - has a tendency to provide too much detail, although he admittedly left a lot out of last week's episode, so ...make of that what you will.
Two episodes left. Yes, they kill off the lead character, and we still have episodes left. It had to have shocked a few people - because Martin sets you up to believe that Ned will go to the Night's Watch and be reunited with Jon Snow - and you even start to look forward to it, hoping he takes Ayra with him - when wham - Joffrey has him killed instead. I think next to Cersei, Joffrey was the character I hated the most in the books. Everyone else is sort of fun, but Joffrey just was cringeworthy from beginning to end - although perfectly cast. This whole thing is perfectly cast.
Saw True Blood S3, second to last episode last night - the S3 finale is next week I think. Game of Thrones is better, or a least more enjoyable, but that's only because it's not a soap opera, and True Blood is such a soap opera. Soap Operas have multiple subplots that have nothing to do with one another. They might come together, but usually not. And without fail, there's at least two subplots that are incredibly dull. All are about romantic relationships or lack thereof. There's little plot outside of emotional arcs. And often you feel as if the writers are just throwing stuff at the screen to see what fits. It can be fun, because it is so unpredictable. I mean how can you predict a story where the plot is basically whatever the writer thinks is cool or which pairing turns the writer on at any given moment? Buffy at times felt like a soap opera - for some of the same reasons. It wasn't plotted out that far ahead of time and it was basically whatever fit the theme. I enjoy the art form for what it is, but it can drag at times - particularly when you are on a subplot that you don't care about - and you wish they'd get back to the one you do. (Example - last night? They were spending all this time on Jason and Crystal - who I find boring, and Jessica and Hoyt (who even more boring) and Arlene and Terry and the witch (which are just sort of silly) - when I wanted to go back to Sam, Tara, and Eric and King Russell. Game of Thrones in marked contrast was far more riveting, had better dialogue, and as a result more entertaining. (ie. My attention didn't wander and I didn't feel a need to fastforward because I was bored.) I won't state that Game is perfect, but it's problems are the same one's I had with the books. While other people are comparing it to other HBO series (which not even HBO does...because apples and oranges, folks, really. Fantasy isn't the same as heightened reality), I'm comparing it to the books and other fantasy genre television series that I've seen. It is actually much better than the books in some respects, or I'm enjoying a lot more. Also, I've not seen a Fantasy series that comes close to Game.
Just finished watching Game of Thrones. And, hee, certain scenes are unintentionally humorous if you have read Storm of Swords recently and know exactly what is going to happen. I was laughing my not-so-little ass off. This has been true about a lot of scenes, actually. It's sort of like watching Buffy for the fifteenth time and during the whole bit where Spike goes on about Angel being the slayer's lap dog in Surprise/Innocence, you find yourself giggling uncontrollably at the irony of it all. In some respects, being spoiled, makes certain scenes far more enjoyable.
Again, how they are interpreting the books, and what they leave in and leave out is fascinating to me. No worries, I'm not going to spoil you for anything that happens past Game outside of being really vague about it - like I am above.
* Ned Stark. According to an interview I read in TV Guide - via someone on my flist who provided a link - non-readers were shocked by the be-heading of Ned Stark. I wasn't in the books. It's foreshadowed fairly heavily actually. They also found it to be shocking...it is, to kill of a lead character, the character that many fans may have decided was the "hero" of the story. His death, if anything, should relieve fans who were concerned that this is going to be your typical hero's journey tale. It so isn't. Those guys keep getting killed off. George RR Martin doesn't subscribe to the whole honorable hero's quest motif that dwells in many a fantasy tale. It is still a difficult scene - because Martin chooses to show it to us, both here and in the books, through Ned Stark's daughter's eyes.
Interesting and somewhat ironic juxtaposition. The series begins with Ned Stark insisting that all his sons, including 10 year old Bran, watch unflinching, when he beheads a poor man who has fled the Night's Watch in terror of his life. The man confesses his sin and Ned beheads him, doesn't send him back, just kills him for the crime of Treason and he does it himself. The boys watch. And it is honorable, yet hard. A solider's duty.
Here, Ned confesses his treason - in hope that the Queen will send him to the Night's Watch, and Sansa and Ayra will be spared. It is against his better judgment. It is against his honor, but he does it - for his daughters for love. When push comes to shove, Ned Stark ironically, finally, ultimately, chooses love over honor, yet, he dies anyway - for he is right about Joffrey, there is no honor in the lad nor love for that matter. But according to Varys there isn't any in Stark's choice for King, Stannis, either. Hard men, solider's who live and die by swords.
*Aemon and Jon Snow - Ah, they used, word for word, one of my favorite scenes in the book. Was bit worried they'd leave it out. It's a deftly written scene and incredibly important. Because it echoes through the books.
In response to Jon Snow's statement that no one can possibly know what he is going through. Master Aemon tells Jon about how he had to watch from afar, and do nothing while his entire family was butchered. He had given up the throne to his brother, whose son Aerys inherited it, the Mad King. And watched as well - Jon's family and the other's killed his brother's sons, and his brother, and their children, small babies. He choose honor over love. Duty over love. He told Jon, every man has too. He said it was easy to choose these things when nothing was at stake - it was easy for Ned Stark to be honorable, to choose duty - when his children's lives weren't at stake, but when they are? And Jon assumes this, choosing honor is always the right thing to do. Master Aemon tells him that what he chooses, whatever it is - he, Jon, must learn to live with it. Either way. As Master Aemon has.
It's an ironic scene. Because Ned Stark and Twyin Lannister are in effect going through what they put the Tarragyrn's through years ago. Karma is circling around to bite them, where they least expect it.
What will Jon choose...to fight with Rob, or to stick to his duty, his choice?
*Catelynn - I loved Catelynn's scenes, far more here than in the books, they made me laugh. Although to be honest, I sort of forgot about them. So, they were new to me. Particularly her scene with her son after negotiating with Walder Frey. "You have to marry one of his daughters."
Rob: "Have you seen them...are they?"
Catelynn: "Uh, one is. Do you agree?"
Rob: Can I say no?
Catelynn: Not if you want to cross.
And of course they win against Jamie Lannister - although barely. They left a bunch of stuff out - some of it rather important. Wonder if they'll add it later? Jamie kills two sons of one of the Stark bannermen, the Bannerman wants Jamie's head or executed for it. Robb chooses not to behead Jamie, or execute him, because they can use him to bargain for Ned Stark and well the two daughters - Sansa and Ayra. But Karstark wants Jamie dead, vengeance for his sons - who Jamie killed honorably in battle. Robb wisely chooses not to kill Jamie, but this is a sticking point that causes a lot of problems later...so curious if they will add it later, it is sort of important. I suppose they could - they don't really talk about it in front of Jamie, they talk about it amongst themselves.
(You have to keep in mind - all information is passed by either raven or messenger boys, if either gets stopped, no one knows anything. At least not quickly.) Jamie actually slew his way up to Robb and Robb barely defeated him, if it weren't for a couple of men ahead of Robb - Robb would have been killed by Jamie. Hence the reason, Robb tells Jamie - he's not dumb enough to engage in armed combat with Jamie of all people, even a wounded and bloody Jamie. Unfortunately they didn't capture Jamie sooner - and pass the word down faster - it may have made a difference if they had. As it is - they appear to have done it at the same time that Joffrey chose to kill Ned Stark.
The Frey negotiation and what was decided during it? I rather enjoyed. Catelynn sells two of her children to Lord Frey to cross the Trident and fight Jamie. She chooses Honor and Duty over Love. She does the opposite of her husband. As does Robb. They figure it's not going to be a problem.
*Jamie - I loved this speech in the book and they do take it out word for word, letter for letter - I know I read it before I watched the episode, because I thought it took place in Clash of Kings, but apparently not. I can't remember most of Clash of Kings...except that it was long and had one too many battle scenes.
Jamie - I'd lay down my sword for you lady, but I've lost my sword. (It's buried in the skull of Lord Karstark's sons - I think)
Catelynn - I don't want your sword - I want my husband and my daughters.
Jamie - I'm afraid I've lost them too.
*Cersei - comes across far more sympathetically here than the books. I've decided it is deliberate. Cersei was a problem in the books, she was written a bit too one-dimensional villain. Here, they've changed her a bit. She admits to having a crush on Robert that isn't all that different from Sansa's early crush on Joffrey (which is dead now). Poor Sansa - unlike Ayra - she wasn't protected from seeing her father die brutally. She saw it up close and personal. No one protected her from it - although to be fair of Cersei- here, Cersei didn't appear to see it coming. She is obviously shocked and upset about it - and you see her arguing with her son after he commands it. It was not what she would have done. In the book - this isn't that clear. No, Cersei is a bit different here - which is a good thing. Very good thing. Huge improvement over the book.
*Ayra - I had forgotten that Ned Stark exchanged looks with Yoren (who looks a bit like Bronn and Jory and I got confused with them in the previous episodes) in the book. Anyhow, he manages to get Yoren to shield his daughter from his execution. (I think I did cry during the Ayra scene in the books, and I almost did here - even though spoiled, and even though I was annoyed by Ned. But his last two scenes are well played by Scean Bean, very well played and your heart does go out to him. He's so trapped. And he is actually right...Joffrey should not be King.)
*Varys - the Opening scene between Varys and Ned Stark is a work of beauty, both cinematography and dialogue wise. The use of light, how they used the torch flame, was brilliant. And I love Varys monologue - where he tells Ned Stark that he is an actor playing a role. His role is the whisperer - listening to secrets. He is supposed to be unscruplous. Without scruples. He is a good actor. But what does he want? Peace. And Ned Stark has gone out of his way to start a full-fledged War. The land was peaceful, more or less, before Ned and Catelynn started poking about. Their ill-advised quests to avenge Jon Arryn and Bran - have lead to the death of thousands.
Setting Ned free doesn't ensure peace. Varys manages to convince Ned to choose love over a solider's honor...but Varys underestimates Joffrey and has misjudged who has the power. Queen Cersei - really doesn't have much power, outside of her son...who is a sadistic creep.
*Tyrion - Ah, they chose to tell Tysha's story to both Bronn and Shae. He does tell both of them in the book. Here - they economically do it at the same time. Which is a good idea, actually. In the book - he tells Bronn while they are escaping from the Vale of Eryie, and Shae sometime later.
Here they combined the two scenes. Shae isn't at all what I had pictured - for some reason I thought she was blond and tiny, and sort of more like Roz. Here she's cleverer, harder, and more up-front with Tyrion. Making it clear - that she wants money. She also shows little sympathy for what happened with Tysha - stating somewhat bluntly - "you should have known she was a whore, a woman who is not a whore would not sleep with a man a mere two hours after she's almost been raped" (very true). Tyrion fascinates me - he's a subversion of the playful playboy that is so often in these stories.
The Playboy brother, who cracks wise, and can't fight - the fun Mercucio character. While his gruffer less pretty brother is a brilliant solider. Here, Martin does the opposite, the pretty boy, never sleeps with any woman but his sister, is celibate (as far as anyone else knows) and a brilliant fighter. While Tyrion - the not so pretty, dwarfish, brother, has the clever wit and shares the beds of well-paid whores. It's fantasy meet heighetened reality.
And it is funny in places. Tyrion is injured by being trampled by his own rag-tag crew of men. Men who want to kill each other as much as the enemy, and him for that matter. Actually he's probably in more danger of being killed by his own men than by the enemy.
His discussion with Tywin is interesting. Tywin states the Scouts were wrong - it is 2,000 men not 20,000 - the 17,000-18,000 are most likely with the kid fighting his son. I'm rather pleased that we didn't have to watch the battle - would have bored me. Battle scenes always bore me. Battle scenes and sex scenes.
*Bronn Forgotten how much I liked Bronn. Rather amusing straight man to Tyrion. Also interesting he's the one who found Shae. Shae and Bronn even look a bit a like. And the game they play is an interesting one - telling us quite a bit about Tyrion, and how out of his depth he is. He claims to be a good judge of character - yet he loses the game. He loses all the games.
*Dany - yes, we are still playing Conan the Barbarian. Although co-worker told me that when he read the books, he envisioned Attila the Hun, a Mongolian. Momoa looks more Persian to me.
I don't like the Dany scenes, I didn't like them that much in the book - thought they were silly and a bit over the top there too. Also cliche fantasy (which they are, as anyone who has read a shitload of pulp fantasy novels knows). But at least the character is growing on me. And I do rather like Ser Jorah, the prodigal/and estranged son of Lord Mormount, the Old Bear, who gives Ser Jorah sword to Jon Snow. (Again the parrallel structure - Mormount protecting and aiding and guiding/mentoring Jon Snow in the icy North, while his son protects and guides and mentors Dany in the hot South - both far from the War. I love the parallels in this story, how character's journey's reflect one another, like mirrors, and how they intertwine when you least expect it. Game is one of the best plotted books that I've read. Very tight plot structure to this novels.)
I don't trust the witch. I think she made his wound fester and wants to kill Khal. But I can't remember. I vaguely remember what happens in that arc exactly. Thought some of it happened a lot later, but apparently not.
Overall? Rather enjoyable. Liked it better than last week's actually. Last week's seemed a bit slow in places and not as well paced. Martin - I think - has a tendency to provide too much detail, although he admittedly left a lot out of last week's episode, so ...make of that what you will.
Two episodes left. Yes, they kill off the lead character, and we still have episodes left. It had to have shocked a few people - because Martin sets you up to believe that Ned will go to the Night's Watch and be reunited with Jon Snow - and you even start to look forward to it, hoping he takes Ayra with him - when wham - Joffrey has him killed instead. I think next to Cersei, Joffrey was the character I hated the most in the books. Everyone else is sort of fun, but Joffrey just was cringeworthy from beginning to end - although perfectly cast. This whole thing is perfectly cast.
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Date: 2011-06-14 04:45 pm (UTC)Oddly here - in the TV series - she isn't bugging me that much. So far they are writing her far more sympathetic than Martin did in Game. Which doesn't take all that much, considering how shallowly she's written. I noticed there's a scene between her and Sansa in Clash of Kings - where she tells Sansa that wanting to be loved is a weakness you can't afford. You are better off not wanting it or caring. So clearly at some point she'd been hurt and went cold? (I was thumbing through Clash of Kings this morning before I loaned it to a co-worker who is eager to read the next installment. He, like you, is clearly enjoying the books far more than I did. It took me forever to read the three books I finished. And I can't say I loved them. There are portions that I rather liked - Ayra, Tyrion (here and there), Jamie and Brienne's chapters, and Samwell Tary. But most of it - felt like ploughing one's way through muck. The TV series is a lot more enjoyable - it's not as violent as the books are, not as gory, and not as grim. Which I'm sure will come as shock to anyone who has only seen the series and not read the novels. It's also a lot less sexist in some respects, and has a lot more wit in others. The Catelynn bits in Game..ponderous, here? Hilarious.)
Agreed on Joffrey. What an annoying character. Robert is as much to blame for that sadist as Cersei. I don't think Sociopath is the correct term. Not all sociopath's are sadists. Sadistic creep works for me. ;-)
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Date: 2011-06-14 05:18 pm (UTC)I won't be picking up other Martin books. He's really just too dark and gory for my tastes. Good grief, Stephen King novels are less gory. And the sadism in the story is just off the charts. So 'like' is a bit strong.
I also find myself a bit curious about Martin's style. He has a decided tendency to place much of the action off screen (as it were). We're told 'such and such happened' for more than we actually see it happening (which I think factors into a lot of the fandom discussion where someone is saying "the show didn't highlight such and such the way I thought they would!" and my scratching my head going... but the book didn't highlight it either. You simply got the info second hand. We aren't given real-time accounts when they do all the crap to Robb or the horrible things that were done to people at Harrenhal, we have some character it's told to later. We don't 'see' those battles, we get some quick summation later. So a lot of what people are emphasizing in their own memories vary wildly. It's mostly 'what stuck out for you' in the midst of a bazillion words and backstories. I've never run across a book that had me having to turn pages back wondering, "Okay, what in the heck just happened? Did that actually happen?" So much stuff is really left to interpretation because you can't trust any of the narrators either. So I find Martin both interesting and perhaps... I don't know, perhaps a bit overrated. It's according to how much of the ambiguity is intended and how much is an offshoot of a style that takes huge chunks of the action and places it at a fair degree of distance. IT's either brilliant or odd.
And I'm not reading AFFC so much as jumping around it trying to gather the info I think I'll need to read the next book. I've grown rather impatient wandering around in the much so I just want to know strategic things at this point. I did suffer through some Cersei chapters though, and being in her head is insufferable. There really is not one good thing about her.
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Date: 2011-06-15 12:02 am (UTC)Eh. I don't think so. Haven't seen anything to date that fits that, and
the story is more about power and how people deal with it and assert it.
Bad characters often do heroic things (with the exception of several characters that I don't need to mention), and good characters do horrible things. It's actually well balanced. (shrugs). If anything they may become anti-heroes...which isn't quite the same thing. It's not a straight up fantasy with villains and heroes...not really. Granted Cersei and Joffrey are painted pretty darkly...
I also find myself a bit curious about Martin's style. He has a decided tendency to place much of the action off screen (as it were). We're told 'such and such happened' for more than we actually see it happening
I noticed that as well. Robb's romance is completely off-stage. As is well almost all the battles. We never see his fight with Jamie. I'm actually glad some of the stuff that happens after the Red Wedding is not shown and just talked about. Because it was gory enough as it was - that would give Caligula or Polanski's Macbeth a run for its money. Most gruesome thing I've read in quite a while (and I've read a lot of gruesome books in my lifetime). Keeping a lot of the Robb stuff off-stage backfires in a way, because I found it difficult to care what happened to Robb. We see almost all of it through Catelynn's eyes - and Catelynn much like Sansa is a fairly passive-aggressive character. I found her more interesting in Storm.
So I find Martin both interesting and perhaps... I don't know, perhaps a bit overrated. It's according to how much of the ambiguity is intended and how much is an offshoot of a style that takes huge chunks of the action and places it at a fair degree of distance. IT's either brilliant or odd.
As a critic of the form, I know he is stylistically and from a purely structural view a far better writer than most of the fantasy writers out there. Objectively? He's better than Kim Harrison, Jim Butcher, JK Rowling, etc...BUT, at the same time, I find him much harder to read and not quite as enjoyable. I admittedly love their characters more than his. I love some of the characters he creates, so complex and multi-dimensional, but...the narrative is distancing. And I know I'm going to be mostly frustrated with the direction he takes them. It does not pull at my emotions, outside of frustration and annoyance. I haven't really cried in the books, the closest I got was Ayra watching Ned get beheaded. And while I am admittedly curious about certain characters, enough to hunt for more on them here and there, I can't say I'm fannish. They aren't books I feel a desire to re-read - outside of comparing them to the tv series.
Is he over-rated? I don't know. But I think a lot of writers are over-rated. Personally, I think Dickens is overrated. ;-) Martin reminds me a lot of Dickens, the attention to detail, the varied character points of views, and the depiction of the physically weak becoming powerful - and the denouncement of class. I had troubles reading Dickens too.
That said? It's an oddly compelling story. I want to know what happens to these characters, how it is resolved, what the writer does with them. I'm still curious. So I'll buy and read Dance of Dragons along with everyone else. I think I'm more or less in the same situation you are.