Buffy Poll results and other stuff

[shadowkat]

1. The good news...I feel better today. Much better. The irritability seems to have dissipated. ie. I no longer want to kill people or fling myself in front of a wayward bus (which I've decided would be a painful way to go, also not necessarily effective...people have survived. Albeit easy - I decided on the way to work this morning that I had a better chance of being hit by a wayward bus in Jamiaca, Queens than I do of finding a mate, winning the lottery, getting a better job, getting a book published, and a whole host of other things I won't depress you or me with.). Still struggling with focusing...

2. The Buffy Favorite Season Poll was rather interesting and far more entertaining than expected. (And so far no kerfuffles, yay team!) Also a bit perplexing...proving once again that there are a variety of ways to interpret what appears to be a fairly straight-forward question. (I should know this already from work, or at least you'd think I would.)

So far? Or the last time I checked...

* 69 people had taken the poll. (Come on, let's see if we can get up to at least 70..., it's still open if you want to participate.)

* Of the 69, 85.9% did not consider S3 their favorite season.

* Okay, now this is bewildering..

- 8 people state that S3 is their favorite season under question #1 (which states: "Was S3 of Buffy your favorite season?") while only 4 people state
that S3 was their favorite season under question #2 ("Favorite Season of Buffy"). I thought that the way the questions were framed that Question 1 and Question 2 would have the same answer or roughly the same for Season 3. (8 people - no more, no less - loved S3. But nooo.)

Now before you start to theorize, I'll add another wrinkle to the problem "2" of the people who voted under Question #2 did not vote under question #1. I have no idea why they skipped question #1. Maybe they didn't see it? No clue.

So...this begs the question - what do you think happened? Also how's that for a brain teaser?

Possible theories:

a) Did people interpret question 1 as stating "that season 3 was amongst your favorite seasons?" - and so voted that it was a favorite, but when they got to question 2, picked another season as "the" favorite? In other words, yes, season 3 is a favorite, but I actually like S5 or S4 a little more. OR I like S5 and S3, but today S5 is my favorite, so I'm going to put yes to question 1 and pick S5 under question 2.

b) Did people decide to split the difference, yes to question 1, and picking another Season under question 2?

c) And what about the people who skipped question 1 entirely? Was this an oversight?
Deliberate? An accident? I'm tempted to say 10 people saw S3 as a favorite - just add the 2 from Question 2 who failed to answer Question 1.

d) and of course there's the majority who read the questions the way I wrote them:
Was Season 3 Your Favorite Season? (your number one choice) and Favorite Season of Buffy (what was your favorite season). So the questions were clear to the majority of voters or pollsters which is somewhat reassuring, at least from my perspective.

I'm wondering if the questions would have been clearer if I left Season 3 off the option list for question 2? No, people may not have seen question 1. You really can't win in these situations.

See? Polling is an inexact science, people have a tendency to perceive questions in ways you can't imagine when setting up a poll. I do not envy professional poll creators.

At any rate, I've decided to interpret the responses as follows: 10 people saw Season 3 as a favorite season but not as their favorite season of the entire series. Only 4 people saw Season 3 as their favorite of the entire series. Now before you jump to any conclusions...this is out of the 69 people who chose to take the poll.
I know for a fact that more than 4 people on my flist preferred S3 to the other seasons, because I've fought with several of them over it. They just declined to take the poll, probably lack of interest. I also know more than 2 loved Season 2. So the poll so far isn't really indicative of either my flist or fandom. But it is of the 69 who took it.

Of the other seasons? 49% picked S5, 27% picked S6, 7% loved S4 (so people bemoaning the fact that they are the only ones who liked S4, take heart - you aren't - there's at least 5 of you to date), S3 and S7 are tied in fifth place...with 6% each*, and surprisingly enough S2 is in 6th place with 3% (this surprised me...I thought people liked that season more for some reason. Certainly expected it to rank above 4,7 and 6.), and no one apparently thinks of S1 as their favorite - which makes sense, if it was your favorite - how in the hell did you make it through 7 seasons? You wouldn't be taking this poll.

*Yes odd pairing S3 and S7. But actually it makes sense to me. Both were plot heavy seasons that focused on authority figures and slayers. Faith factored predominately in both seasons. And the First Evil was in both seasons. As was the Mayor. There's a lot of similarities between S7 and S3 plot-wise and structure wise. Even the relationships are somewhat similar...although I found the B/S angst more relateable than the B/A angst of S3, which just bored me. I had troubles with both seasons for more or less the same reasons. The plot didn't work for me on an emotional level.

I find the lack of interest in S2 fascinating. Way back when...oh about five or six years ago, when we did these polls online, people often chose S2 as their favorite.
Now, it's becoming more or more S5, S6 and S4. Very interesting. Of course different people were taking the polls...so there may not be any change.

I read the comments which were also fascinating. A lot of people confessed that they didn't really have a "favorite" season per se or that it changed depending on their mood. There was no discernible pattern as to why people picked S3 over S5 or vice versa. It was largely for personal reasons - which are impossible to analyze.

None of this should be remotely surprising...considering people were able to interpret the question "Was S3 of Buffy your favorite season?" multiple ways.

I did the poll because I scanned a Mark Watches post and got mildly curious. Mark said he was sure S3 was a fan favorite or the favorite season. And I thought, uh no, that would S5. Then I pondered...and thought, is that true? Was it really S5? Or did more people love S3? How many people on my flist loved 5? I can't remember. How many loved 3? Can't remember. I know, let's do a poll and find out.

What I discovered is I was sort of right, most of my flist does love S5 and isn't all that crazy about S3. But...I also discovered that you can't really tell. OR understand why people like what they like. Or how they perceive things. You are so stuck in your own body and own pov...that you will never understand what is going through someone else's head or why they think, perceive, interpret or do the things they do. For example? I've no clue why Glee is still doing well in the ratings, and SMASH (which in my opinion is 100 times better) is not. Maybe people like crass satire about high school? And not straight drama about putting on a Bway show?
I don't know. I think this is why I love books so much and why I am so obsessed with pov...because I want to understand how other people think and see the world, and books are a way of understanding that, getting inside someone else's head.


[ETA: Well, more people have taken the poll now, we're at 74 last count, with 9 who saw S3 as a favorite, and roughly 5 as their "favorite" out of all of the seasons - dead heat with S4. Meanwhile S7 has jumped ahead of 3 and 4 both, and landed in 3rd place. Go S7. S2 is stuck in second to last place.
And there is no joy in mighty lj land for poor old S1. Who's in first? Lucky S5, with S6 behind. But no gains there. S5 is holding steady at 49% of the vote, and way ahead of the pack. This is actually not that suprising, considering S5, S6, and S7 are my favorite seasons and we do tend to attract people who look at the world in a similar manner to ourselves. ]

[ETAA - 3/2/12- It's Friday and good lord, S3 and S7 are still tied - they have 6 each.
And S2 is gaining on S4...it's at 4 people to S4's five. With S5 still way ahead of the pack with 35 votes. And S6 a distant second with 18. No love in mighty mudville for
poor old S1. Also, with 79 votes, only 9 people see S3 as their favorite or a favorite, not sure which at this point, considering only 6 voted for it as the favorite amongst the other seasons. After four or five days...I'm declaring S5 the winner, and no...S3 really isn't much of a fan favorite on my lj. ]

Off to watch tv. I'm tired and it's getting late.

Comments

[sophist.livejournal.com]

One other thing S3 and S7 have in common: a theme of the need to share power (or empower others, depending on how you look at it).

I'm very surprised at the poor showing of S2. I voted for S7 because I was worried that nobody else would; turns out I should have cast that vote for S2 (which I also love).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Considering S7 has now moved into 3rd place, ahead of S3. While S2 is stuck in second to last with just two votes.

I'm tempted to do an analysis of S3 vs. S7 or vice versa.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Here's a handy list I drafted a few years ago:

There are a great many parallels between S3 and S7, among them the following:

1. The theme for each season was empowerment, first the students of Sunnydale High, then everyone.

2. Both seasons use the language of war to lead us to a climactic battle in the final episode.

3. The season ends by destroying a symbol of evil (the school, the Hellmouth) along the way to realizing the empowerment theme.

4. Buffy doesn’t destroy either symbol of evil (Giles and Spike, respectively, do that), but she sets up the process.

5. Faith’s knife and the Scythe play somewhat similar roles.

6. The villain of S7 comes from Amends in S3.

7. In S3 Faith is Buffy’s “dark half”, while in S7 The First is Buffy’s “inner Iago” (Earshot).

8. Both seasons involve the attempt at rehabilitation/redemption of souled vampires.

9. Cordelia and Anya play similar roles.
10. They each have an epiphany episode (The Wish and Selfless).

11. Giles’ role in S7 parallels that of the Council in S3, with Helpless and LMPTM similar in structure and effect.

12. In both seasons she has a problematic relationship with a souled vampire who is distrusted by her friends.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

One more:

13. Both seasons have a character who symbolizes a patriachial structure or fallen one. Caleb (7) vs. Mayor (3). Both are human villains, who have become monsters through
deals with demons. And both represent established patriachial powers. The Mayor - the town, politics, and Caleb - religion. Both also have rituals they perform.

Also it's interesting regarding episodes.

Beneath you/Beauty and the Beasts
LMTPM vs. Helpless
Selfless vs. The Wish
Dirty Girls vs. Bad Girls
Killer in Me vs. Dopplegangland
Conservations with Dead People vs. Amends
Storyteller vs. the Zeppo
Empty Places vs. Consequences
Touched vs. the Prom
Showtime vs. Homecoming
Revelations vs. Never Leave Me
Lessons vs. Anne

I'd say that for the key episodes - Beneath You,
Conservations, Selfless, and LMTPM - S7 is clearly better. But for Dirty Girls, Killer in Me - S3 is far more entertaining.

They are tied again, S3 has jumped ahead of S4 now and is tied with S7 for 3rd place.

In some respects Willow, Faith, and Xander have better arcs in S3. But Giles and Buffy have more interesting arcs in S7. Angel was a place-holder in S3, as was Cordelia in many respects.
Anya's arc and epithany episode is far better for her character than Cordy, just as Spike's epithany episode is better than Angel's, probably because this was the end of the series and they went putting Anya and Spike in their own series.

I'm tempted to state which season you preferred has a lot to do with whether you prefer Spike/Anya to Angel/Cordy. I know I did, both acting wise and character wise.

Faith/Buffy are at odds in S7, and Faith/Spike fight. But...in 7 as opposed to 3, Buffy isn't all about the guy. She's big picture gal. And
she supports Faith and they aid each other.
She really doesn't put Spike's welfare above everyone's like she did with Angel. Also Angel's pops in briefly, just like Spike pops into Buffy briefly.

Lots of parallels.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Good points all. I know you don't like Storyteller, but IMHO it's a FAR better episode than The Zeppo. In fact, on your list of parallel episodes, I'd rate only 2 of the S3 episodes as clearly better: Revelations and Consequences. I rather like KiM, but Doppelgangland is great and I might include it too.

You implied it but didn't say it: Spike's arc in S7 is far better than Angel's in S3.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Given the opportunity to think it over, Dopplegangland is definitely better. While I like the Willow segments in TKiM, the rest aren't that great.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Revelations (even though I'm not a fan) works better than Never Leave Me does. As does Consequences over Empty Places (which I didn't like and still doesn't work for me plot-wise. It was one of those episodes where I find myself arguing with the tv.
'what are you doing? you can't kick her out of her house? Particularly since she's the only one who pays the bills for it and owns it. Plus she saved all your lives.' (They should have left the house not pushed Buffy out of it. Ugh.)'And so, Xander got his eye poked out. He shouldn't have come, the nitwit.'
LOL!

And yes, Dopplegangland over KiM...took me a while to remember the title of KiM...it tried to do too much. Dopple was more focused.
That was the problem with S7 - it was too busy, they kept packing episodes with things, instead of focusing them. As a result the season felt diffused.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

know you don't like Storyteller, but IMHO it's a FAR better episode than The Zeppo.

Now, I'd have to agree. From an objective and subjective view Storyteller works better than the Zeppo for me. Jane E did a better job in my opinion.

I don't like The Zeppo, Storyteller, or Superstar...of the three...I think Storyteller is the most interesting. There's a lot going on in that episode. Also the humor is more subtle and the tonal shifts less jarring than the Zeppo.

You implied it but didn't say it: Spike's arc in S7 is far better than Angel's in S3.

Definitely. Angel had nothing to do in S3, Boreanze was bored out of his mind and has stated as much. Even the people who prefer S3 to S7 have admitted that. All he did was stand around and look constipated, also his arc is "all about Buffy" or whether he and she should ride off in the sunset and their angst at not being able to do that, while in s7 the writers were more interested in who Spike was and if he could be redeemed, and really uncomfortable with the romantic bit - so shied away from the romance more and the angst. (What killed Angel's arc in S3 was Angel the Series - if there hadn't been a series...they may have done things differently.)

Anya's arc in
S7 is also in some respects better than Cordy's - because it's not about Xander, while Cordy's is "all about Xander". (What killed Cordy's arc was also Angel the Series.)

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

hahaha and here I thought you had deliberately used "was" in the first question, like I answered before, S3 *was* my favorite season, even after watching the whole series. but it just isn't now.

Either way, I agree, you can't tell why people like why they like sometimes you are in the mood for something, sometimes what you used to worship now feels stupid etc... But it is interesting because I also have the feeling that out of my little spuffy world people seem to be all about S3.

[rahirah]

I know I accidentally missed the first question and had to go back and fill it out. But I have noticed that people often skip poll questions for what seems to be no reason at all.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well of course Mark hasn't seen the rest of the series, so his assumption of fans loving season 3 is based on limited information....
And really your poll only covered everyone's favorite season (not their second or third favorite), so really it is possible that we would have all picked season 2 as our runner up favorite (personally I do rank all the seasons with Spike in them higher than the seasons with little or no Spike)...
so of course I'm just muddying the water. I should get to bed.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I think you've got a point there about the Spikeless seasons...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah but I didn't want rankings, I just wanted to know what everyone's favorite season was. Not what their favorite seasons were. ;-)

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Well, I like satire. A lot. I'm curious what it is that makes satire "crass", though, as opposed to just plain ol' satire.

I'm fairly certain I'd like "Smash" if it was on at a time when I could remember to watch it. I'll probably get around to it once it's canceled, like I usually do with the good stuff. :-( RIP, "Pushing Daisies" and "Better Off Ted".

I've decided that I just don't like watching TV very much. I like watching television shows, just not as they are being broadcast, with ads, weird scheduling breaks, or at inconvenient times (all of them are inconvenient, at some point). I must not be the target audience. Oh well. I'll live.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I like satire too...when it is done well. Brad Falchuck and Ryan Murphy don't do it well in my opinion and are "crass". By that...I mean subtlety.
Murphy's satire is about as subtle as a hammer to the head.

The Brits do it the best. Their humor is more subtle and less over-the-top than American humor.
American humor tends to be crass and obvious in my opinion, rarely subtle or witty.

Satire should require a brain. Otherwise it's just parody. Example of good satire? SNL's Tina Fey as Sarah Palin...subtle in places. Example of bad satire - last week's Glee - with the guy who was being bullied hanging himself, finishing off with the car accident.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I can't really disagree about much of American humor tending toward the broad and unsubtle. Not that anybody else does it universally better. The Brits have Benny Hill as well as AbFab and Stephen Fry, while the French love Jerry Lewis (not that there's anything wrong with that). We have Tina Fey AND Adam Sandler, and everybody in between.

I do disagree that either of the Glee examples you've mentioned count as satire — OR even as comedy — by any stretch of the imagination. Becky walking down the hall, her inner voice that of Queen o'England Helen Mirren: that's satire.

What Glee does is mix its tones from bathos to pathos. These shifts can be jarring, and the audience doesn't know what to expect. I notice that "Mark Watches" recently complained about the jokes mixed in with the v. v. serious stuff in the "Earshot" episode of BtVS. I feel like I should warn him that this mixing never goes away, and if it bugs him now, he's watching the wrong show. I wouldn't class Glee with BtVS, but the tonal shifts don't bother me in either one. It's a big part of their appeal, IMO.

Further, I'd say that satire isn't always well-served by subtlety. Just look at politics these days: the joke is that comedians have a hard row to hoe to get more ridiculous than reality. Yet Colbert and Stewart manage it, bless 'em. Satire is often fueled by rage, and while I appreciate finesse, I can also get fully behind a funny vicious rant when it's aimed at the powerful and close-minded. Is "A Modest Proposal" subtle, along with being the gold standard of satire? Probably not, though it is skillful. Naturally, I fully support everyone's right to object to poorly-done satire.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You're correct about Glee it's mixing satire and emotional pathos, which isn't working for me. Too jarring and at times incredibly offensive. This will be my last year of watching it. Not my cup of tea. And I find some of their satire over-the-top. While the Queen Elizabeth voice worked...the Sue Sylvestrie bits aren't. Very unevenly written and too broad for my taste.

I'm wrong about SMASH - it actually was 17 in the Nielsen's last week. That's good for NBC.

The best example of good American satire is Stephen Colbert.

While I enjoy satire, a little can go a long way. My sense of humor, as you may have guessed by my blog is rather dry,
witty, and asburdist.

Slapstick, Broad humor, Satire, and Parody only really work for me in small 15-30 minute segments. ;-) (ie. I loved Swift's A Modest Proposal, but got bored reading Guillivar's Travels.)

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

I'll admit to screwing up and missing question one. I didn't realize I could go back and fix it. All the pretty lines came up and I was transfixed. Sawry

[tomomakimou.livejournal.com]

I thought S3 is one of the most “common” fan favorite? :p (Along with S2 and S5.)

When I first started lurking around online communities, I had this impression that long term fans of the series (especially those of you who have been around since the series first aired) tend to like the earlier seasons, and newcomers like myself tend to favour the later seasons. Apparently that's not the case, but I think it's an interesting factor to consider in the poll options. :)

BTW, I just saw your “bet” on what Mark might and might not like for the upcoming seasons chez elisi. Yup, that's a very likely scenario ....

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I had this impression that long term fans of the series (especially those of you who have been around since the series first aired) tend to like the earlier seasons, and newcomers like myself tend to favour the later seasons.

Depends on the community. Each is different.
If the fans are Faith shippers or Xander shippers or both, they don't tend to like the latter seasons any more than Spike shippers like the early ones. Same with Bangel and Cordy shippers - they don't tend to like the latter seasons either for obvious reasons.

BTW, I just saw your “bet” on what Mark might and might not like for the upcoming seasons chez elisi. Yup, that's a very likely scenario ....

My only change is that I think he will fall in love with S5's Dawn, Willow/Tara, Anya/Xander, and want the series to end there.