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Walking Dead, Buffy Shipping Redux
1. Watched Walking Dead last night, against my better judgement. Spent the majority of the episode worried they were going to kill off my favorite character, actually make that the only character I like outside of maybe Daryl. They didn't. But it was touch and go for a while there. Actually I think Andrea may be the break out character of the series.
It should be noted that I've never read or seen the comics. I just know what the writers have said about them in interviews and other people online have stated. Such as Shane died at the end of maybe the second or third issue - fairly early on in the series and was killed by Carl to protect his father. A sword barring fighter pops up, a ninja type - who is a fan favorite. And there's a fort controlled by the Governor, who basically throws people in a gladiator style ring to fight off zombies.
In the series, Rick killed Shane, Carl killed Zombie!Shane and for the first time we saw what happens inside the human when the monster takes over. The series keeps underlying how the walking dead or zombies are literally a metaphor for disease. The "on-coming plague" which you can't stop. It moves slowly, but you can't outrun it, you can't hide, and you can't stop it. The human fear of disease is what a zombie exemplifies or is a metaphor for.
Vampires tend to represent addiction and sexual perversity, zombies disease and mindless violence. Both are about hunger - one for sex, for acquiring life, and the other for devoring or consuming life. I prefer vampires - find them to be more interesting, plus less gross. But that's just me. Zombies aren't really my thing. Not a fan of illness or disease. But perverse sex, sexual violence, and sucking life...I can deal with. Weird, considering my fear of spiders. But I don't claim to make sense.
According to interviews - the writers of the series, which includes the creator and writer of the comics, want to do the samuri girl and the governor who does gladiator battles. From the finale of this season - my guess is that will definitely be next season.
We see the samuri girl pop up, saving Andrea's life, with her two chained and armless zombies in tow. She's hooded, so hard to know if it's actually a girl. And we see Fort Bragg loom omniously in the distance. I'm guessing that's the Governor.
Rick actually became interesting. I like Lincoln who portrays him. The acting in this series is better than the writing. He's spiel to the survivors was ...interesting. They surprised me, I didn't expect Rick to reveal that he killed his best friend in self-defense this soon, to everyone (but Andrea who is racing through the woods for her life). I admittedly didn't care about Rick or the survivors through any of this, and just wanted to know if Andrea survived. Outside of maybe Rick and Daryl, the others can be devoured by zombies for all I care. Okay, that's not entirely true...I sort of like Glenn, Maggie, and the black guy (who I kept wishing would just dump whiny Lori and the blond girl by the side of the road and keep on trucking.) Herschel is growing on me - he's a more dangerous and helpful Dale. They've basically replaced Dale with Herschel, and Shane..
I'm not sure who they've replaced Shane with. They did need to get rid of a few - so Jimmy and Maribeth (who I never knew and so didn't care about) got killed pretty brutally.
Was sort of rooting for Carol to buy it too - but no, apparently Daryl and Carol are in the next item. Did love their exchange. Daryl: "What do you want exactly, a hero?"
Carol: "Yes, I want someone with honor." Daryl: "Rick has honor." Carol:"Than why doesn't he do something - show some backbone?" Well, now he has. Happy? (Rick: You can leave and get killed by zombies in the dark, or you can stay here. I don't care. But if you stay this isn't a democracy any longer! (nor should it be...in these situations, you really can't have a democracy, it's do or die. Otherwise you might as well be herding cats across the countryside, actually cats would be easier to herd.)
Best line was Herschel's: I know it says in Revelations that come judgment day, that Christ would raise the dead and dead would walk, but I honestly thought he had something different in mind. (you think? LOL! Don't mind me, irreverent religious lines always make me laugh.)
Finally? Andrea rocks. She managed to get away from the farmhouse on foot, by herself. She's the only one who did. With a ton of weapons. And ran through the woods. I'm really hoping Samuri Girl and Andrea become a Themla and Louise for this series - that I will watch. Wicked cool.
2. Buffy shipping redux. Wasreading scanning Mark Watches again and it may be too soon to tell, but I'm going out on a limb to predict that no, Mark, will not be a Spuffy fan. I did want to reply to his post though, but they'd kill me on the spoilers.
* Spike in Giles bathtub, chained up - this had to launch a dozen fanfics. (Yes, it did, but actually it launched even more Spuffy fics.)
* Where's Wesely? Maybe he and Joyce are having babies? (eww, and this guy thought Spuffy was eww...seriously.) ME: No, he's on Angel, making googly eyes at Cordy. (He doesn't know Wes went to Angel? I'm not sure I believe that. Anymore than I'm sure I believe he didn't know Cordy went there...casting spoilers are pretty hard to avoid, particularly when they are "main" cast members.)
* "I know Willow isn't gay, but she's my gay best friend...and we can talk about the woe of boys..." (Hee. Actually...she likes girls better.)
* "Buffy/Spike - eww...I covered my eyes during this.." (sigh, he's not going to like S6. Although hard to know for certain, can't remember what I thought about Something Blue when it first aired or Spuffy. I don't think I was a shipper...at that point I found Spike a bit creepy. So...I will give Whedon credit for building that relationship. Granted, I've been told that Mark knows about the A/R just not when or where - so that may be why he's reacting in this manner.)
This brings me to ships and subjectivity or what triggers folks.
1. Buffy/Angel - I couldn't stand that ship after IWARY and the Faith cross-over. I found what Angel did in IWARY unforgiveable. Worse than the A/R scene. In part because he NEVER realizes he did anything wrong and does the same thing over and over again. He never realizes that he violated Buffy in a horrific way. He raped her of her memories, her bit of life, so he could cling to immortality and be a "champion". And he never realizes it.
Memories make us who we are. Then he does it again - in S4, which did not surprise me in the least, because that's Angel. He rapes his friends of their memories so that Connor can live a normal life. Doesn't give them a choice. Doesn't care. He does it for his own legacy, his own immortality. It's a typical noir hero thing to do, actually, and fit the character and the series. But it made it impossible for me to like or sympathsize with the character. The whole memory thing I found difficult to deal with. Granted Willow does exactly the same thing and deliberately - but she does pay for it, everyone knows, and she shows remorse, she realizes she did something wrong...and she's not self-righteous about it like Angel is. Both characters bugged me. But Angel was worse.
2. The AR felt less deliberate than Angel's actions, Spike was clearly not in his right mind at the time, he didn't have a soul - so no moral compass, and he regretted so deeply that he sought a soul to ensure it wouldn't happen again, not realizing that getting a soul wouldn't be enough to ensure this. I saw no intent from Spike. It didn't feel like an active choice. He didn't plan it. It wasn't malice aforethought - and I'm sorry I've been trained to think about this from a legal perspective. Did the character plan it? What was their motivation? Did they show remorse? Would they have done something different?
And did they gain anything? Spike's character is vastly different than Angel, and which you prefer or despise, etc, has a lot to do with what bugs and turns you on. For me - Spike seemed to be more about the rush, the high, he doesn't really think it through...he jumps in. Angel on the other hand thought about it, worked at it, planned it. Angel always intended to hurt - he got off on creating monsters, Spike...really never thought about it, enjoyed the fight, the blood rush, the seduction. At least that is how I saw them. I know mileage varies on this - I have the kerfuffle wounds to prove it. And once upon a time, I adored Angel, now...I find his character difficult to like. In a way, I preferred how Being Human dealt with the Angel character trope - the guilty guy who never really takes action to deal with his addiction or to show his remorse, just whines about being cursed with the addiction.
3. So for me? I could never understand why people couldn't forgive Spike for the AR, who couldn't see him with Buffy after that. Because I did not see or interpret the scene the way they did. Any more than I interpret or see the episodes IWARY or Home the same way others have. But, I'm not being entirely truthful, when I say this. I do understand in a way and I can see the other point of view, I've always been able to play devil's advocate with myself. I can hear the other side of the argument even now. Spike attacked her physically in a brutal way, Angel just undid time - she never remembered it, so where's the pain? Where's the harm, if you can't remember the pain? If you have no memory of the act? Isn't physical rape worse than mental rape? It's a question Whedon posed in Dollhouse.
Demonstrating that no, mental rape is in some ways worse...because we lose who we are. But then again...I think this is question that can't be generalized. There's no one answer.
At any rate, the only ship that survived that series...was Spuffy, the only character I loved and was obsessed with afterwards was Spike. I don't know why that is. It just is.
Everyone else...I sort of grew away from or out of. In part it is the comics, which I stopped reading after S8. In part...it is my own interactions with fandom, complete with personality conflicts. (I should note, I have a lot of people on my flist who loved Bangle and Angel, and still do...I understand, and I don't, much as I'm certain they understand my love for Spuffy and Spike, and they don't.)
God, I went too late. Damn it.
Okay before stopping...here's the thing about taste [ETA: and interpretation]? You won't understand someone else's taste or interpretation any more than you can walk a mile with their feet. You can't understand how they react to things, except to know it most likely will be different than you do. The reasons for the differences are vast. But the fact they exist, the fact you don't like the same things...see the world very differently - is a good thing. It makes us unique. It means we are less likely to destroy the world. There will always be someone who fights us, when we do something dumb. And...we are never alone, because as much as it may seem that no one is on our side or agrees with us or shares our taste? We are wrong. There's always someone who does.
[ETA: Don't hurt me for my opinions people, Angel and Connor don't exist. I do. Pray, Keep that in mind. Also there are various ways to interpret things. AND time to remind you all: "Your Friends aren't watching the same tv show you are (even if it looks like it) and that's okay!" ]
It should be noted that I've never read or seen the comics. I just know what the writers have said about them in interviews and other people online have stated. Such as Shane died at the end of maybe the second or third issue - fairly early on in the series and was killed by Carl to protect his father. A sword barring fighter pops up, a ninja type - who is a fan favorite. And there's a fort controlled by the Governor, who basically throws people in a gladiator style ring to fight off zombies.
In the series, Rick killed Shane, Carl killed Zombie!Shane and for the first time we saw what happens inside the human when the monster takes over. The series keeps underlying how the walking dead or zombies are literally a metaphor for disease. The "on-coming plague" which you can't stop. It moves slowly, but you can't outrun it, you can't hide, and you can't stop it. The human fear of disease is what a zombie exemplifies or is a metaphor for.
Vampires tend to represent addiction and sexual perversity, zombies disease and mindless violence. Both are about hunger - one for sex, for acquiring life, and the other for devoring or consuming life. I prefer vampires - find them to be more interesting, plus less gross. But that's just me. Zombies aren't really my thing. Not a fan of illness or disease. But perverse sex, sexual violence, and sucking life...I can deal with. Weird, considering my fear of spiders. But I don't claim to make sense.
According to interviews - the writers of the series, which includes the creator and writer of the comics, want to do the samuri girl and the governor who does gladiator battles. From the finale of this season - my guess is that will definitely be next season.
We see the samuri girl pop up, saving Andrea's life, with her two chained and armless zombies in tow. She's hooded, so hard to know if it's actually a girl. And we see Fort Bragg loom omniously in the distance. I'm guessing that's the Governor.
Rick actually became interesting. I like Lincoln who portrays him. The acting in this series is better than the writing. He's spiel to the survivors was ...interesting. They surprised me, I didn't expect Rick to reveal that he killed his best friend in self-defense this soon, to everyone (but Andrea who is racing through the woods for her life). I admittedly didn't care about Rick or the survivors through any of this, and just wanted to know if Andrea survived. Outside of maybe Rick and Daryl, the others can be devoured by zombies for all I care. Okay, that's not entirely true...I sort of like Glenn, Maggie, and the black guy (who I kept wishing would just dump whiny Lori and the blond girl by the side of the road and keep on trucking.) Herschel is growing on me - he's a more dangerous and helpful Dale. They've basically replaced Dale with Herschel, and Shane..
I'm not sure who they've replaced Shane with. They did need to get rid of a few - so Jimmy and Maribeth (who I never knew and so didn't care about) got killed pretty brutally.
Was sort of rooting for Carol to buy it too - but no, apparently Daryl and Carol are in the next item. Did love their exchange. Daryl: "What do you want exactly, a hero?"
Carol: "Yes, I want someone with honor." Daryl: "Rick has honor." Carol:"Than why doesn't he do something - show some backbone?" Well, now he has. Happy? (Rick: You can leave and get killed by zombies in the dark, or you can stay here. I don't care. But if you stay this isn't a democracy any longer! (nor should it be...in these situations, you really can't have a democracy, it's do or die. Otherwise you might as well be herding cats across the countryside, actually cats would be easier to herd.)
Best line was Herschel's: I know it says in Revelations that come judgment day, that Christ would raise the dead and dead would walk, but I honestly thought he had something different in mind. (you think? LOL! Don't mind me, irreverent religious lines always make me laugh.)
Finally? Andrea rocks. She managed to get away from the farmhouse on foot, by herself. She's the only one who did. With a ton of weapons. And ran through the woods. I'm really hoping Samuri Girl and Andrea become a Themla and Louise for this series - that I will watch. Wicked cool.
2. Buffy shipping redux. Was
* Spike in Giles bathtub, chained up - this had to launch a dozen fanfics. (Yes, it did, but actually it launched even more Spuffy fics.)
* Where's Wesely? Maybe he and Joyce are having babies? (eww, and this guy thought Spuffy was eww...seriously.) ME: No, he's on Angel, making googly eyes at Cordy. (He doesn't know Wes went to Angel? I'm not sure I believe that. Anymore than I'm sure I believe he didn't know Cordy went there...casting spoilers are pretty hard to avoid, particularly when they are "main" cast members.)
* "I know Willow isn't gay, but she's my gay best friend...and we can talk about the woe of boys..." (Hee. Actually...she likes girls better.)
* "Buffy/Spike - eww...I covered my eyes during this.." (sigh, he's not going to like S6. Although hard to know for certain, can't remember what I thought about Something Blue when it first aired or Spuffy. I don't think I was a shipper...at that point I found Spike a bit creepy. So...I will give Whedon credit for building that relationship. Granted, I've been told that Mark knows about the A/R just not when or where - so that may be why he's reacting in this manner.)
This brings me to ships and subjectivity or what triggers folks.
1. Buffy/Angel - I couldn't stand that ship after IWARY and the Faith cross-over. I found what Angel did in IWARY unforgiveable. Worse than the A/R scene. In part because he NEVER realizes he did anything wrong and does the same thing over and over again. He never realizes that he violated Buffy in a horrific way. He raped her of her memories, her bit of life, so he could cling to immortality and be a "champion". And he never realizes it.
Memories make us who we are. Then he does it again - in S4, which did not surprise me in the least, because that's Angel. He rapes his friends of their memories so that Connor can live a normal life. Doesn't give them a choice. Doesn't care. He does it for his own legacy, his own immortality. It's a typical noir hero thing to do, actually, and fit the character and the series. But it made it impossible for me to like or sympathsize with the character. The whole memory thing I found difficult to deal with. Granted Willow does exactly the same thing and deliberately - but she does pay for it, everyone knows, and she shows remorse, she realizes she did something wrong...and she's not self-righteous about it like Angel is. Both characters bugged me. But Angel was worse.
2. The AR felt less deliberate than Angel's actions, Spike was clearly not in his right mind at the time, he didn't have a soul - so no moral compass, and he regretted so deeply that he sought a soul to ensure it wouldn't happen again, not realizing that getting a soul wouldn't be enough to ensure this. I saw no intent from Spike. It didn't feel like an active choice. He didn't plan it. It wasn't malice aforethought - and I'm sorry I've been trained to think about this from a legal perspective. Did the character plan it? What was their motivation? Did they show remorse? Would they have done something different?
And did they gain anything? Spike's character is vastly different than Angel, and which you prefer or despise, etc, has a lot to do with what bugs and turns you on. For me - Spike seemed to be more about the rush, the high, he doesn't really think it through...he jumps in. Angel on the other hand thought about it, worked at it, planned it. Angel always intended to hurt - he got off on creating monsters, Spike...really never thought about it, enjoyed the fight, the blood rush, the seduction. At least that is how I saw them. I know mileage varies on this - I have the kerfuffle wounds to prove it. And once upon a time, I adored Angel, now...I find his character difficult to like. In a way, I preferred how Being Human dealt with the Angel character trope - the guilty guy who never really takes action to deal with his addiction or to show his remorse, just whines about being cursed with the addiction.
3. So for me? I could never understand why people couldn't forgive Spike for the AR, who couldn't see him with Buffy after that. Because I did not see or interpret the scene the way they did. Any more than I interpret or see the episodes IWARY or Home the same way others have. But, I'm not being entirely truthful, when I say this. I do understand in a way and I can see the other point of view, I've always been able to play devil's advocate with myself. I can hear the other side of the argument even now. Spike attacked her physically in a brutal way, Angel just undid time - she never remembered it, so where's the pain? Where's the harm, if you can't remember the pain? If you have no memory of the act? Isn't physical rape worse than mental rape? It's a question Whedon posed in Dollhouse.
Demonstrating that no, mental rape is in some ways worse...because we lose who we are. But then again...I think this is question that can't be generalized. There's no one answer.
At any rate, the only ship that survived that series...was Spuffy, the only character I loved and was obsessed with afterwards was Spike. I don't know why that is. It just is.
Everyone else...I sort of grew away from or out of. In part it is the comics, which I stopped reading after S8. In part...it is my own interactions with fandom, complete with personality conflicts. (I should note, I have a lot of people on my flist who loved Bangle and Angel, and still do...I understand, and I don't, much as I'm certain they understand my love for Spuffy and Spike, and they don't.)
God, I went too late. Damn it.
Okay before stopping...here's the thing about taste [ETA: and interpretation]? You won't understand someone else's taste or interpretation any more than you can walk a mile with their feet. You can't understand how they react to things, except to know it most likely will be different than you do. The reasons for the differences are vast. But the fact they exist, the fact you don't like the same things...see the world very differently - is a good thing. It makes us unique. It means we are less likely to destroy the world. There will always be someone who fights us, when we do something dumb. And...we are never alone, because as much as it may seem that no one is on our side or agrees with us or shares our taste? We are wrong. There's always someone who does.
[ETA: Don't hurt me for my opinions people, Angel and Connor don't exist. I do. Pray, Keep that in mind. Also there are various ways to interpret things. AND time to remind you all: "Your Friends aren't watching the same tv show you are (even if it looks like it) and that's okay!" ]
no subject
I think there was a moment during the bathroom scene that spike did mean to rape Buffy. He says "he'll make her feel it." I think he meant that. He genuinely believed he had the right to make her feel the way he did because he needed her to and also believed she would agree with him if only he could make her. But it would still have been rape.
no subject
Well, yes, but it's not like Angel responded in Benediction to the reality of teenage Connor with "argh! Give me the baby back! And/or a mindwipe!" Two very specific situations aside (one at the end of Deep Down, one in Habeas Corpses, details in my reply above), Angel is trying to woo Connor from Benediction to Home. Mind you, I don't think he's particularly good at it. (Except for the part where fighting together usually works as bonding. Which even goes for has-two-memory-sets!Connor. But other than that.) (Oh, and mutually brainwashed karaoke singing.) But he tries.
I think I'll rewatch Home because I'm honestly curious whether the whole new-life-for-Connor part of the life saving was already in Lilah's offered deal or whether the episode gives the impression Angel came up with that one; I might misremember or have forgotten. Either way, as I said above, on the one hand, given there was an immeditely life threatening situation (not hypothetical, but very real, and not just for Connor) at hand, he didn't have time to think long and hard about it, so I would call the original agreement under duress. Whereas Angel upholding it AFTER that situation was over was full and squarely his responsibility. Now the life Connor ends up with between Home and Origin is probably Angel's ideal for him, minus, and that's not insignificant, imo, Angel himself, but, and here we get to personal interpretation which differs from viewer to viewer again, to me this was not out of dissapointment but complete desparation, as in, he really believed that anything less would leave Connor dead.
Moving to a Doylist level: I think what disturbs some viewers, including our host, is that the narrative itself in a way supports Angel's decision because once the spell is broken in Origin, and Connor has both sets of memories available again, he still is better off for what Angel did. (Connor v.3?) He expresses some reservations but he also says he gets why Angel did it. (Wesley, too, after regaining his memories.) And if you as a viewer consider Angel's action wrong and selfishly motivated, then the show should have let either Connor be worse off and/or tell Angel what he did was wrong. If, otoh, like myself you consider what Angel did understandable (and something you might do yourself under identical circumstances), then the narrative validating Angel's decision by letting Connor-with-both-memories be better off for what Angel did is a boon instead of a disturbance.
no subject
Love is complicated. I don't think Angel only loved his dream of Connor, you always end up overstating things in these debates, but in the end he let that desire for the dream win out over his love for the living boy. Lilah tempted him and he gave in. However, I don't feel that the story validated that position in Origins. In my mind, although he never intended it so and in fact worked hard to prevent it happening, Connor's memories being restored acts as a metaphor for Angel finally being able to accept his son for all he was. It's more by luck than judgement but then sometimes people do get lucky.
no subject
no subject
When Liam becomes a vampire - he echoes his father's mistakes as both Angel and Angelus...as Angelus he creates his vampire children in his own image (first Pell, then Spike), and he attempts to recreate himself in the Master's - to be better than the Master, nastier.
It's a theme Whedon is particularly fond of - since he plays with the same theme in Doctor Horrible and Dollhouse...in different ways.
no subject
Exactly this. I think that is the difference in the two perspectives.
Thank you. And I think it has a lot to do with..how you view memory loss and redemption. Which is difficult to define - not what you stated above, but ..why we view it this way. Why some of us saw the writing as a betrayal of moral pov, while others a validation of a moral pov. I don't know. I do know that both perspectives are equally valid - the morality here is admittedly ambiguous. And that the writers ...well, I think were equally on the fence about it. As shown in Dollhouse and unfortunately the comics. Whedon clearly was of two minds...and the text sort of reveals that. It can be read two ways.
Angel dies for his sins and takes LA and possibly Connor along with him in Not Fade Away. Would Not Fade Away have happened if Angel made a different choice?