Walking Dead, Buffy Shipping Redux

[shadowkat]

1. Watched Walking Dead last night, against my better judgement. Spent the majority of the episode worried they were going to kill off my favorite character, actually make that the only character I like outside of maybe Daryl. They didn't. But it was touch and go for a while there. Actually I think Andrea may be the break out character of the series.



It should be noted that I've never read or seen the comics. I just know what the writers have said about them in interviews and other people online have stated. Such as Shane died at the end of maybe the second or third issue - fairly early on in the series and was killed by Carl to protect his father. A sword barring fighter pops up, a ninja type - who is a fan favorite. And there's a fort controlled by the Governor, who basically throws people in a gladiator style ring to fight off zombies.

In the series, Rick killed Shane, Carl killed Zombie!Shane and for the first time we saw what happens inside the human when the monster takes over. The series keeps underlying how the walking dead or zombies are literally a metaphor for disease. The "on-coming plague" which you can't stop. It moves slowly, but you can't outrun it, you can't hide, and you can't stop it. The human fear of disease is what a zombie exemplifies or is a metaphor for.
Vampires tend to represent addiction and sexual perversity, zombies disease and mindless violence. Both are about hunger - one for sex, for acquiring life, and the other for devoring or consuming life. I prefer vampires - find them to be more interesting, plus less gross. But that's just me. Zombies aren't really my thing. Not a fan of illness or disease. But perverse sex, sexual violence, and sucking life...I can deal with. Weird, considering my fear of spiders. But I don't claim to make sense.

According to interviews - the writers of the series, which includes the creator and writer of the comics, want to do the samuri girl and the governor who does gladiator battles. From the finale of this season - my guess is that will definitely be next season.
We see the samuri girl pop up, saving Andrea's life, with her two chained and armless zombies in tow. She's hooded, so hard to know if it's actually a girl. And we see Fort Bragg loom omniously in the distance. I'm guessing that's the Governor.

Rick actually became interesting. I like Lincoln who portrays him. The acting in this series is better than the writing. He's spiel to the survivors was ...interesting. They surprised me, I didn't expect Rick to reveal that he killed his best friend in self-defense this soon, to everyone (but Andrea who is racing through the woods for her life). I admittedly didn't care about Rick or the survivors through any of this, and just wanted to know if Andrea survived. Outside of maybe Rick and Daryl, the others can be devoured by zombies for all I care. Okay, that's not entirely true...I sort of like Glenn, Maggie, and the black guy (who I kept wishing would just dump whiny Lori and the blond girl by the side of the road and keep on trucking.) Herschel is growing on me - he's a more dangerous and helpful Dale. They've basically replaced Dale with Herschel, and Shane..
I'm not sure who they've replaced Shane with. They did need to get rid of a few - so Jimmy and Maribeth (who I never knew and so didn't care about) got killed pretty brutally.
Was sort of rooting for Carol to buy it too - but no, apparently Daryl and Carol are in the next item. Did love their exchange. Daryl: "What do you want exactly, a hero?"
Carol: "Yes, I want someone with honor." Daryl: "Rick has honor." Carol:"Than why doesn't he do something - show some backbone?" Well, now he has. Happy? (Rick: You can leave and get killed by zombies in the dark, or you can stay here. I don't care. But if you stay this isn't a democracy any longer! (nor should it be...in these situations, you really can't have a democracy, it's do or die. Otherwise you might as well be herding cats across the countryside, actually cats would be easier to herd.)

Best line was Herschel's: I know it says in Revelations that come judgment day, that Christ would raise the dead and dead would walk, but I honestly thought he had something different in mind. (you think? LOL! Don't mind me, irreverent religious lines always make me laugh.)

Finally? Andrea rocks. She managed to get away from the farmhouse on foot, by herself. She's the only one who did. With a ton of weapons. And ran through the woods. I'm really hoping Samuri Girl and Andrea become a Themla and Louise for this series - that I will watch. Wicked cool.



2. Buffy shipping redux. Was reading scanning Mark Watches again and it may be too soon to tell, but I'm going out on a limb to predict that no, Mark, will not be a Spuffy fan. I did want to reply to his post though, but they'd kill me on the spoilers.

* Spike in Giles bathtub, chained up - this had to launch a dozen fanfics. (Yes, it did, but actually it launched even more Spuffy fics.)
* Where's Wesely? Maybe he and Joyce are having babies? (eww, and this guy thought Spuffy was eww...seriously.) ME: No, he's on Angel, making googly eyes at Cordy. (He doesn't know Wes went to Angel? I'm not sure I believe that. Anymore than I'm sure I believe he didn't know Cordy went there...casting spoilers are pretty hard to avoid, particularly when they are "main" cast members.)
* "I know Willow isn't gay, but she's my gay best friend...and we can talk about the woe of boys..." (Hee. Actually...she likes girls better.)
* "Buffy/Spike - eww...I covered my eyes during this.." (sigh, he's not going to like S6. Although hard to know for certain, can't remember what I thought about Something Blue when it first aired or Spuffy. I don't think I was a shipper...at that point I found Spike a bit creepy. So...I will give Whedon credit for building that relationship. Granted, I've been told that Mark knows about the A/R just not when or where - so that may be why he's reacting in this manner.)

This brings me to ships and subjectivity or what triggers folks.

1. Buffy/Angel - I couldn't stand that ship after IWARY and the Faith cross-over. I found what Angel did in IWARY unforgiveable. Worse than the A/R scene. In part because he NEVER realizes he did anything wrong and does the same thing over and over again. He never realizes that he violated Buffy in a horrific way. He raped her of her memories, her bit of life, so he could cling to immortality and be a "champion". And he never realizes it.
Memories make us who we are. Then he does it again - in S4, which did not surprise me in the least, because that's Angel. He rapes his friends of their memories so that Connor can live a normal life. Doesn't give them a choice. Doesn't care. He does it for his own legacy, his own immortality. It's a typical noir hero thing to do, actually, and fit the character and the series. But it made it impossible for me to like or sympathsize with the character. The whole memory thing I found difficult to deal with. Granted Willow does exactly the same thing and deliberately - but she does pay for it, everyone knows, and she shows remorse, she realizes she did something wrong...and she's not self-righteous about it like Angel is. Both characters bugged me. But Angel was worse.

2. The AR felt less deliberate than Angel's actions, Spike was clearly not in his right mind at the time, he didn't have a soul - so no moral compass, and he regretted so deeply that he sought a soul to ensure it wouldn't happen again, not realizing that getting a soul wouldn't be enough to ensure this. I saw no intent from Spike. It didn't feel like an active choice. He didn't plan it. It wasn't malice aforethought - and I'm sorry I've been trained to think about this from a legal perspective. Did the character plan it? What was their motivation? Did they show remorse? Would they have done something different?
And did they gain anything? Spike's character is vastly different than Angel, and which you prefer or despise, etc, has a lot to do with what bugs and turns you on. For me - Spike seemed to be more about the rush, the high, he doesn't really think it through...he jumps in. Angel on the other hand thought about it, worked at it, planned it. Angel always intended to hurt - he got off on creating monsters, Spike...really never thought about it, enjoyed the fight, the blood rush, the seduction. At least that is how I saw them. I know mileage varies on this - I have the kerfuffle wounds to prove it. And once upon a time, I adored Angel, now...I find his character difficult to like. In a way, I preferred how Being Human dealt with the Angel character trope - the guilty guy who never really takes action to deal with his addiction or to show his remorse, just whines about being cursed with the addiction.

3. So for me? I could never understand why people couldn't forgive Spike for the AR, who couldn't see him with Buffy after that. Because I did not see or interpret the scene the way they did. Any more than I interpret or see the episodes IWARY or Home the same way others have. But, I'm not being entirely truthful, when I say this. I do understand in a way and I can see the other point of view, I've always been able to play devil's advocate with myself. I can hear the other side of the argument even now. Spike attacked her physically in a brutal way, Angel just undid time - she never remembered it, so where's the pain? Where's the harm, if you can't remember the pain? If you have no memory of the act? Isn't physical rape worse than mental rape? It's a question Whedon posed in Dollhouse.
Demonstrating that no, mental rape is in some ways worse...because we lose who we are. But then again...I think this is question that can't be generalized. There's no one answer.

At any rate, the only ship that survived that series...was Spuffy, the only character I loved and was obsessed with afterwards was Spike. I don't know why that is. It just is.
Everyone else...I sort of grew away from or out of. In part it is the comics, which I stopped reading after S8. In part...it is my own interactions with fandom, complete with personality conflicts. (I should note, I have a lot of people on my flist who loved Bangle and Angel, and still do...I understand, and I don't, much as I'm certain they understand my love for Spuffy and Spike, and they don't.)

God, I went too late. Damn it.

Okay before stopping...here's the thing about taste [ETA: and interpretation]? You won't understand someone else's taste or interpretation any more than you can walk a mile with their feet. You can't understand how they react to things, except to know it most likely will be different than you do. The reasons for the differences are vast. But the fact they exist, the fact you don't like the same things...see the world very differently - is a good thing. It makes us unique. It means we are less likely to destroy the world. There will always be someone who fights us, when we do something dumb. And...we are never alone, because as much as it may seem that no one is on our side or agrees with us or shares our taste? We are wrong. There's always someone who does.



[ETA: Don't hurt me for my opinions people, Angel and Connor don't exist. I do. Pray, Keep that in mind. Also there are various ways to interpret things. AND time to remind you all: "Your Friends aren't watching the same tv show you are (even if it looks like it) and that's okay!" ]

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Mark's abuse of ALL CAPS and exclamation marks makes him virtually unreadable for me at this point.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Which is why I scan. ;-)

Also enjoying my bet on which reviews he'll use all caps and exclamation marks on. So far, the only one I was wrong about was Pangs.

[elisi]

He rapes his friends of their memories so that Connor can live a normal life. Doesn't give them a choice. Doesn't care. He does it for his own legacy, his own immortality.
Huh? I have to say I disagree with this hugely. He does it for Connor's sake, and because of it sells out on every level: He loses his mission, his redemption and his friends.

GUNN (softly, confessing)
It was just a piece of paper. I was losing it. Everything they put in my head, everything that made me different. Special. And he could fix it. Make it permanent. So I signed a piece of paper. It was a custom's release form. I didn't think anyone would get hurt.

WESLEY
Nothing from Wolfram & Hart is ever free. You knew that.

GUNN
I couldn't go back... to being just the muscle. I—I didn't think it would be one of us. I didn't think it would be Fred.

Angel has no such illusions. He knows exactly what the price will be, and is willing to pay it to save his child. (Remind me, have you seen Children of Earth?) Or, to quote this fic:

"This is what you are. This is why you fight."

And he looked into the pool, and he saw the child, their child. But the mist hung over the water, and the truth became harder and harder to see through the haze.

The girl with the golden hair held out her hands. "If you turn over the child," she said, "You can save the world."

But he shook his head, and stood firm.

"I'll save the child," he said, "If I have to turn over the world."

It's fatherly love, not pride, which motivates him. Just look at how hopelessly he views his own fate in S5 - he does not expect to in any way avoid paying for all his crimes.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Seconding this. It's also important to note that Wesley, Fred, Lorne and Gunn agree to the Wolfram & Hart deal before the memory removal happens. They all get their individual sales tours, which we get to see. Angel doesn't agree until Lilah shows him Connor is about to blow himself, Cordy and a dozen innocent bystanders up. That's when he agrees. So to call this He does it for his own legacy, his own immortality is a really gross and massively unfair distortion. Unless you want to postulate the only reason Angel cares for Connor (at this point a suicidal killer who literally grew up in hell) is "his own legacy".

When Wesley breaks the spell in Origin (assuming that the deal Angel signed had something to do with Fred, which it didn't), and at the very least Connor and Wesley get their original memories back (we don't know about everyone else for certain), the reactions we get from both are diverse. Wesley, who on that occasion also gets his memories of his own guilt (abducting Connor etc.) back, is just stunned. Connor makes his cryptic comment about having to put his family first and that "my father taught me that", expressing both understanding why Angel did what he did, and a choice of his own for that second life (which also means his fake parents as his parents, not Angel); one has the impression that he needs some time of his own to adjust to the whole thing, which is confirmed in the series finale when he can acknowledge what he and Angel are to each other openly.

Now whether or not Angel's choice to save Connor at the expense of everyone's Connor-related memories plus his own redemption is morally wrong or not is another issue. But note that Buffy in "The Gift" at least claims she'd make an even harsher choice with her threat to kill anyone who tries to kill Dawn, and in "The Gift" you have the apocalypse and everyone's lives at stake. Buffy eventually finds a third way to save both Dawn and the world, because BTVS is the kinder show. The Angel and Connor situation in "Home" isn't exactly the same (because the world isn't at stake, the world has already been saved; at stake are the lives of various bystanders, Connor's, and Cordelia's), but Angel isn't given self sacrifice as a third way out, either. (Not heroic self sacrifice, i.e. his life for Connor's; he does have to sell out himself in addition to everyone's Connor memories, for which I'm not sure self sacrifice is the right term.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

So to call this He does it for his own legacy, his own immortality is a really gross and massively unfair distortion. Unless you want to postulate the only reason Angel cares for Connor (at this point a suicidal killer who literally grew up in hell) is "his own legacy".

I interpreted it differently than you did.

Will remind you of a post you did a while back on "You're Friends are not watching the same tv show, that you are, and this is okay."

You are interpreting it from a micro level, I'm doing it from a macro level. Small pic vs. big pic. You are emotionally invested in Connor/Angel, I'm emotionally invested in everyone else. My trigger, as stated above is
memory wipes, or playing with people's minds - removing their agency.

While your arguement is certainly valid and I agree on many points, you are missing the point of my post above. Where I state that I've seen both sides and have argued both sides. But at the end, I can't get past the fact that he altered the memories to alter his son's history, so his son could be a different person - the son he could be proud of, and could love. What Angel did is similar to what Willow did. And what the priest's did with Dawn.
And I agree with Buffy in regards to the Priests/Monks - what they did was wrong. That doesn't mean I blame Dawn any more than I blame Connor.

Playing God, using power to change other's lives in order to benefit yourself or your own ends ...I have issues with. Particularly in regards to memory. My granny died without knowing who I was. I saw her forget me. I saw her memory disappear and change. My worst fear is memory manipulation. My post was about how our triggers cause us to react to fiction differently.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Okay, I get the difference in triggers, and why it's personal for you. And of course we all see different shows.

However:

But at the end, I can't get past the fact that he altered the memories to alter his son's history, so his son could be a different person - the son he could be proud of, and could love.

Question: you didn't think he loved Connor before? I don't mean the baby, I mean teenage Connor. Because I would say that there are only two times where Angel instead of trying to win teenage Connor over (the hard way you say he didn't take) rejected him. Once was after he returned from under the sea (the "I love you, now get out" scene), and I'd see three months in a condition that's pure torture are an excuse for that, and the other time, which is the one time where I'd say Angel does fail Connor, after saving him from the zombie outing at Wolfram and Harts and then stepping away after Connor approaches him because this is just after Angel has seen him with Cordelia. In all the other episodes between Benediction and Home, it's Angel attempting to be there for Connor and reaching out to him.

Secondly: I haven't watched Home for a while, so I might be wrong there, but as I recall it, we don't actually find out whether the entire changed memory/memories part was Angel's idea or already part of Lilah's offer. (Again, I may remember wrongly, but to my knowledge we cut we go from Lilah switching on the screen to show Angel Connor to wherever Connor is about to blow everyone up, with possibly a Gunn or Fred scene in between.) Honestly, I could buy it either way - that Lilah only said "we help you save your son, not just right now but permanently" without specifying anything, or that Lilah said "we'll give your son an entire new life". Either way, though: it's not like Angel has time to think long and hard about the whole affair. Because there is an immediate life threatening situation, with Cordelia's and the bystanders' lives at stake in addition to Connor's. He has to make a decision then and there, and he makes it.

Could he have gone back on the deal after that immediate danger was removed? Absolutely. And he didn't, which is his responsiblity. Where we disagree is his motivation for keeping up said deal. You see it as Angel taking the easy way and being selfish, I see it as Angel taking one of two hard ways (because until Origin, he has no expectation of ever seeing Connor again, which the show certainly sold me on being terrible for him, and as far as other benefits are concerned, he certainly was far happier not being CEO of Wolfram and Hart) and being selfless. I'm not saying I don't see Angel as selfish in many other ways. (Including IWRY. God, yes.) But not in this particular decision.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No, I think he loved Connor. That's not what I meant. I meant that his love was overshadowed by his own guilt and aspirations, not that it didn't exist.
I don't mean to paint it as cut and dry as I do.

And you bring up several valid points, which ironically I think I actually argued on the ATPO board at the time the episode actually aired. My thinking on Angel has admittedly done a 180 turn since the series ended (cough*buffycomics*cough (which I've decided are the root of all fandom evilness) and the ensuing debates surrounding them).

My memory of Home admittedly isn't much better than yours - I last saw it maybe two years ago? I forget. What I remember vividly from it - is that Lilah stated they could rewrite Connor's history, that no one would remember him, except Angel, that no one would remember Connor as Angel's son...etc. And this deal is echoed in Orion's Window (I think that's the name of the episode) - where Wes discovers the deal Angel made and breaks the glass, shattering the construct, so that now everyone remembers Connor, including Connor.

Where we disagree is his motivation for keeping up said deal. You see it as Angel taking the easy way and being selfish, I see it as Angel taking one of two hard ways

Sort of. It's more complicated than that...I think. I may be wrong.
It's admittedly something I've struggled with, because I do agree Angel was up against a rock and a hard place - he really had very few options. But I still think he picked the easier path the quick solution. You are right "easy" isn't exactly right. Fastest is better and most likely to succeed from his pov. Which was I guess the message in Epithany...that Angel doesn't quite understand - that you can't keep having someone wave a magic wand to fix your problems - there are consequences. Willow has a similar issue - she keeps trying to take the short-cut, but as Tara states there are no short-cuts.

(Caveat: I like Connor and am amongst the few fans who actually loved Connor in S3-S4. VK sold Connor to me. But I also like VK as an actor.) I think if the boy that was doing those killings had been anyone else, like a stranger? Angel would have killed him. Angel sacrificed all this for a murderer who was his son. Granted the boy had been irreparably damaged. But...Angel's choice always bugged me - my guess is it was supposed to.

That said, I do agree it's not as cut and dry as I made it sound above. Angel's choice in Home actually is more morally grey than his choice in IWARY and better written. Home's an episode that plays with your brain long after it is over.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The episode you mean is called Origin, the device Wesley shatters is an Orion's window.

Re: short cuts: well, Angel is someone for whom two of the most significant, shattering changes of his life happened in a "magical", so to speak, way: Darla making him from Liam into Angelus, and the gypsies giving him a soul. Now if you look at it more closely, in both cases the event itself is by no means a fix-it or a complete development. Becoming a vampire ends Liam's discontented life in Galway, but it doesn't actually already create Angelus, other than adding the demon part. But I'd say Angelus as we know him is the product of years as a vampire (the newborn vampire killing his family is still quite confused, the one challenging the Master actually not that dissimilar from Liam in brawling mode, only with added supernatural stamina though with the added knowledge Liam wouldn't have had, that the Master beating him physically still allows him to win Darla emotionally), a work in progress that's not complete until Darla leaves him to burn in the barn and he catches up with her later. Similarly, the newly souled vampire isn't Angel yet, either. He tries to go back to what he used to be at first, to what and whom he's used to, and he needs a century of various failed attempts (see also: Are you know or have you ever been?) to become his definite souled personality. But that's an outside pov. For Angel himself, what's true is that both Darla making him into a vampire and the gypsies cursing him radically and forever altered his life/lives. Now whether giving Connor different memories is more the equivalent of making him a vampire or giving him a soul for Angel is up to debate. But I think it's not surprising that the idea this could be the way to save him would occur.

I think if the boy that was doing those killings had been anyone else, like a stranger? Angel would have killed him. Angel sacrificed all this for a murderer who was his son.

Absolutely, with one caveat: I wouldn't say "anyone else", though I agree on the "stranger" part. Angel would have also done it for Faith; he'd definitely have done it for Darla; Spike and Drusilla are arguable, though I'm tending to "yes" (not least because he's responsible for making them killers to begin with); Cordelia, yes, Wesley, probably yes, Gunn and Fred yes except if the saving would have damaged more than people's memories.

But if Connor had been a complete stranger helping Jasmine for reasons unknown and then killing her for reasons unknown? He'd either have disarmed him and locked him up somewhere or killed him, agreed.

Something I do recall is that Tim Minear (who by all I've heard is the primary author of the Angel-Darla-Connor storylines, so I'm not sure how much this counts as a Joss Whedon tale anyway) says on the Home audio commentary that the original plan (back when they didn't know Charisma Carpenter was pregnant and s4 was still in the planning stage) was that de-possessed Cordelia, not Connor, would kill Jasmine, and Angel would kill Connor, going for an Arthurian ending, with Connor as Mordred, but the combination of the fact CC was not available for anything more than cameos in the last part of the season due to her condition and the fact VK put on such a great performance as Connor, the writers changed their mind, and decided that not only would Connor live but that, ironcially, this incredibly damaged, murderous child would end up as the one person who makes it out of the show definitely alive and with hope for the future.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The episode you mean is called Origin, the device Wesley shatters is an Orion's window

Ah, thanks. For some reason I had separated those as two different episodes in my head.
I don't know why. ;-)

I wouldn't say "anyone else", though I agree on the "stranger" part.

No, I agree - I tried to change that halfway through the sentence, but forgot to change the "anyone" bit. As aycheb stated above, we occasionally fall into the habit of "over-stating" things on lj. ;-)

Angel would have done it for anyone that he felt was his responsibility and/or was extreemly close to, although "responsibility" is the operative term here. It's how I've fanwanked the fact that he never staked Dru or Spike and looked for ways to get them out of trouble.

Something I do recall is that Tim Minear (who by all I've heard is the primary author of the Angel-Darla-Connor storylines, so I'm not sure how much this counts as a Joss Whedon tale anyway)

True. How much of Angel was Whedon..is questionable. I actually have similar questions regarding Buffy. Both felt more collaborative.
And I think sometimes we give Whedon too much credit (but then I've seen things he's done without that level of collaboration and they don't stack up quite as well.)

says on the Home audio commentary that the original plan (back when they didn't know Charisma Carpenter was pregnant and s4 was still in the planning stage) was that de-possessed Cordelia, not Connor, would kill Jasmine

Remember that too - which was true and on the DVD commentary. Also remember a rumor (which may or may not be true), again stated by Minear in some interview somewhere, that originally Cordelia was supposed to be the Big Bad and get killed by Connor at the end. But Charisma got pregnant and it just didn't work. The other rumor was that Doyle would have come back as a big bad, if Glenn Quinn had still been around.
(Not sure if either of these are true.)

the writers changed their mind, and decided that not only would Connor live but that, ironcially, this incredibly damaged, murderous child would end up as the one person who makes it out of the show definitely alive and with hope for the future.

An interesting writing choice and it works in a "noir" series, because typically that's what happens. I've always found it ironic that Angel corrupted everyone who saught shelter with him, as opposed to redeeming them (with the possible exception of Faith), and they all died horribly. But hey he still got his "shanshue" in the end - which was "Connor's magical redemption". Actually Connor was the shanshue.

From one perspective (not sure if its Watsonian or Doylist) I can't help but appreciate and admire the choice - it's neatly ironic, and ambiguous as well. Also tragic depending on the pov. I remember laughing my head off - when the moderator of the fan discussion board I was on at the time, remarked:"Okay, I didn't want them to kill off Connor...but that doesn't mean I wanted them to kill off everyone else!") It's highly ironic - that all of Angel's best buds, the one's who fought for him, his Willow, Giles and Xander, are dead by the end of S5. (Doyle, Fred, Cordy, and Wes).

From another perspective...and I'm guessing this is why the writers made the decision they did...I can't help but be disturbed by the outcome. I think it is meant to be morally ambigous and dark. It's a horror show after all.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Alright that Angel, Connor, Darla icon is wickedly cool. Haven't see it before.

[elisi]

I haven't watched Home for a while, so I might be wrong there, but as I recall it, we don't actually find out whether the entire changed memory/memories part was Angel's idea or already part of Lilah's offer. (Again, I may remember wrongly, but to my knowledge we cut we go from Lilah switching on the screen to show Angel Connor to wherever Connor is about to blow everyone up, with possibly a Gunn or Fred scene in between.) Honestly, I could buy it either way - that Lilah only said "we help you save your son, not just right now but permanently" without specifying anything, or that Lilah said "we'll give your son an entire new life".

It's all Angel. Lilah receives a phone call, switches the TV on, and we see the news report. Then there's fade-to-back (commercial break) and then this:

LILAH
Watch the head. It comes off kind of easy.

ANGEL
(through gritted teeth) You set this whole thing up.

LILAH
Been a little busy with the being dead.

ANGEL
You, the senior partners, whoever. Get 'em on the phone and make it stop (low) now.

LILAH
Love to, except for the part where we didn't have anything to do with—

ANGEL
But you know who did.

LILAH
Yeah, I'm looking at him. You're the one who raised him or didn't. (Angel lets her go; Lilah clears throat) Can't imagine how the kid turned out postal.

ANGEL
You don't know a thing about Connor, huh. Let's keep it that way. (walks toward the door)

LILAH
One time offer only, Angel. Walk out that door, deal's off. Stay, and it's all yours.

ANGEL
People like you, this place, that's what's wrong with the world, Lilah. I will never be a part of this. (sighs, stares at the image of Connor on the screen) Not the way you're hoping. (walks up to Lilah) Now let me tell you what the deal's gonna be.


So, it's Angel's idea through and through. (It's early, I might be back with more thoughts later on. In short, Connor's story parallels Melody's very closely - a child raised to be a weapon, and hugely damaged because of it. Except Melody saves herself, and Connor can't.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thank you for looking it up and settling whose idea it was!

Re: parallels, seee my reply to Shadowcat above for something that occured to me re: magical existence alterting events in Angel's own life - becoming a vampire and the souling, and the conclusions he may have taken from that.

The Connor and Melody Ponds parallels were something which I thought of back when s6 was unfolding, though I must say they mostly made me dissatisfied with s6, because of Rory's and Amy's non-reactions through most of it as compared to how s3, flawed as it was, allowed the audience to see everyone, from Angel to Fred/Gunn/Cordelia and of course to Wesley be affected by the aftermath.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

First, thank you for the bit on Home, I was pretty sure that was the way Home played out. That Angel set the terms and WRH fiendishly agreed. The best traps are the one's that we set for ourselves after all, not the one's the "metaphorical" devil or devils set for us.
(WRH is amongst my favorite Whedon villains, for this reason - they always let their victims set their own traps.)

There's other differences between Melody (River Song) and Connor...in that, Melody's birth was a natural one not one manipulated by
the PTB. Melody isn't the Doctor's child. She is actually raised by her parents in the real world (except her parents are her age) not by the kidnappers. She's not tortured like Connor or living in a hell dimension. She falls in love with the Doctor and isn't rebelling against him like a child against a parent.
Nor is she rebelling against Amy Pound. The Doctor isn't Amy Pound's significant other.
And both Melody and the Doctor are Time Lords.
Plus she is saved by killing the Doctor, and Melody unlike Connor goes to prison.

I think Melody/River has more in common with Faith than with Connor actually. Although that's not quite a good fit either - but Faith like River was a bit psychotic, and it took an older powerful man, who had done similar things to understand her and help her find her way - helping her choose to go to prison and like Faith, River is only there because she chooses to be, since she can break out at any time. (The Doctor Who/River story parallels Faith/Angel in some respects...) As for Connor, he has more in common with Donna Noble - who in Doctor Who had her "memories" entirely wiped in order "to save her". (Which I have issues with as well, actually what was done to Donna bothered me more than Home.)

[elisi]

Sorry to disappear, life has been... too busy. Anyway, just wanted to come back to this (very momentarily):

I think Melody/River has more in common with Faith than with Connor actually. Although that's not quite a good fit either
There are story-parallels with Faith, but basically I think River starts out Connor-like (there are more parallels than you give the show credit for), and then turns into Spike (the Spike-parallels are off the chart. *g*) I'm intending to write a post (at some point...) so I'll not go into too much detail right now, but that's my basic position. Faith just happens to be a woman (and she chooses to go to prison) but character-wise she's nothing like River. All her motivations are vastily different. :)

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

In a very strong way, though, our children *are* our legacy and our immortality so while I agree that he did it for Connor, I don't think that it precludes the idea that he did it for himself.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you, that was sort of how I interpreted it as well.

For many, children are their immortality, their legacy. I've heard that phrase used so often now.

And while it is true he did it for Connor, it was selfishly motivated and largely out of his own pride. There were other ways he could have helped Connor, more humane, and less destructive. He picked the easy way.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, in that sense Darla staked herself for herself, too. This seems to me to argue it's impossible for a parent to love a child without the love being primarily about the parent.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think that it de facto makes it primarily about the parent, but I think a case can be made that in Angel's particular situation it was primarily about his own vanity.

I'm not sure I agree 100%, but as Shadowkat said, we all watch the show differently.

I do agree with her that Angel took the easiest way out and that the way he chose was morally heinous. He raped the minds of the Fang Gang just as badly as Willow raped Tara's mind and I don't think there is any excuse for it. With his resources there were any number of ways he could have dealt with that situation. Any number of witches he could have contacted to incapacitate Connor long enough to diffuse the situation and make a solid attempt at getting him the psychological help he needed. He chose to wipe the slate clean, sign any and all responsibility for Connor over to someone else, and start over so that no one could see how badly he'd botched the job of fatherhood. He couldn't live with the idea that he might just be as bad a father as his own was so he erased all the evidence. I do think that's horrible, and irresponsible, and vain.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, we'll have to agree to utterly disagree re: Angel's motivation. Oh, and also on Angel's amount of responsibility for Connor's state. He has some, but the lion's share goes to Holtz, and no, I don't think the fate of Holtz' family justifies Holtz there. (it would have if he'd acted on Angel and Darla directly.) Wesley, too, bears some blame, as does Connor himself, because as his monologue in Peace Out makes clear, he knew what he was doing.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

You misunderstand. While Holtz is responsible for doing the greatest damage to Connor's psyche, that doesn't alleviate Angel's responsibility, as a parent, to help Connor get deal with it and try to get better.

And let's face it, Angel did a fair share of his own damage by making some bad choices, once Connor showed back up in LA.

But the responsibility Angel shirked was getting Connor help, and as it showed in the comics, a do-over ended up not being the best choice when it came to getting Connor help.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

As I am an on screen canon only person who doesn't read the comics, I can't comment on them. On screen, Angel did make his share of bad choices, granted, starting with going to Holtz behind Connor's back (as Cordelia told him). But he also tried to reach out to Connor, and honestly, if not for the Jasmine interference I think they could have reached a dysfunctional modus vivendi.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

With Angel and Connor I think agree with the point you meant to make. What Angel did is justified as being the only way to save Connor but I don't think it did. Not Connor that was. The Connor that he wished for maybe, the one he planned to watch hockey game with and send to college but that Connor never existed. It's the thing with kids, they come with dreams attached. It's so easy to build some perfect future in your head and then be disappointed by the reality. It happens a lot with the parents of disabled children especially fathers (in my experience). It takes time to move past it and some never do. I generally don't care for Angel - he bores me but in Home I feel for him.

I think there was a moment during the bathroom scene that spike did mean to rape Buffy. He says "he'll make her feel it." I think he meant that. He genuinely believed he had the right to make her feel the way he did because he needed her to and also believed she would agree with him if only he could make her. But it would still have been rape.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

What Angel did is justified as being the only way to save Connor but I don't think it did. Not Connor that was. The Connor that he wished for maybe, the one he planned to watch hockey game with and send to college but that Connor never existed. It's the thing with kids, they come with dreams attached. It's so easy to build some perfect future in your head and then be disappointed by the reality.

Well, yes, but it's not like Angel responded in Benediction to the reality of teenage Connor with "argh! Give me the baby back! And/or a mindwipe!" Two very specific situations aside (one at the end of Deep Down, one in Habeas Corpses, details in my reply above), Angel is trying to woo Connor from Benediction to Home. Mind you, I don't think he's particularly good at it. (Except for the part where fighting together usually works as bonding. Which even goes for has-two-memory-sets!Connor. But other than that.) (Oh, and mutually brainwashed karaoke singing.) But he tries.

I think I'll rewatch Home because I'm honestly curious whether the whole new-life-for-Connor part of the life saving was already in Lilah's offered deal or whether the episode gives the impression Angel came up with that one; I might misremember or have forgotten. Either way, as I said above, on the one hand, given there was an immeditely life threatening situation (not hypothetical, but very real, and not just for Connor) at hand, he didn't have time to think long and hard about it, so I would call the original agreement under duress. Whereas Angel upholding it AFTER that situation was over was full and squarely his responsibility. Now the life Connor ends up with between Home and Origin is probably Angel's ideal for him, minus, and that's not insignificant, imo, Angel himself, but, and here we get to personal interpretation which differs from viewer to viewer again, to me this was not out of dissapointment but complete desparation, as in, he really believed that anything less would leave Connor dead.

Moving to a Doylist level: I think what disturbs some viewers, including our host, is that the narrative itself in a way supports Angel's decision because once the spell is broken in Origin, and Connor has both sets of memories available again, he still is better off for what Angel did. (Connor v.3?) He expresses some reservations but he also says he gets why Angel did it. (Wesley, too, after regaining his memories.) And if you as a viewer consider Angel's action wrong and selfishly motivated, then the show should have let either Connor be worse off and/or tell Angel what he did was wrong. If, otoh, like myself you consider what Angel did understandable (and something you might do yourself under identical circumstances), then the narrative validating Angel's decision by letting Connor-with-both-memories be better off for what Angel did is a boon instead of a disturbance.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

When Connor first came back Angel could still nurture the hope that underneath all the Quortoth upbringing the boy he'd dreamed about was still there. It often takes people a long time to accept a diagnosis. After Deep Down Angel never spent very much time with Connor. Admittedly, I don't remember S4 that well, it was one of those season that hurtled along but gathered no moss until Home. What I do remember is Angel only being able to love Connor at a distance. I remember him having the intention to help but but never by being close, always watching from rooftops or round corners, nothing face to face. Not that Connor's own behaviour helped but the net effect was that Angel never got to know Connor well enough for his reality to drive out the dream.

Love is complicated. I don't think Angel only loved his dream of Connor, you always end up overstating things in these debates, but in the end he let that desire for the dream win out over his love for the living boy. Lilah tempted him and he gave in. However, I don't feel that the story validated that position in Origins. In my mind, although he never intended it so and in fact worked hard to prevent it happening, Connor's memories being restored acts as a metaphor for Angel finally being able to accept his son for all he was. It's more by luck than judgement but then sometimes people do get lucky.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I agree with this writeup. :) I don't think that it requires saying that Angel doesn't love "the real" Connor at all to say that he loves the idea of a perfect son a great deal, and that is one of the (many) influences going on in Home.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree with both of you...that's what I was trying to express when I stated that I didn't see Angel's act as necessarily an act of love. It's not that he didn't love Connor, he does...but I think he loved his dream of Connor more. Which is true of love - often we are in love with the dream of the person not the person who stands before us. This I think is an echo of Liam/Angel's issues with his own father...Liam's father wanted Liam to be someone else, he drove Liam away because Liam did not live up to his ideal.
When Liam becomes a vampire - he echoes his father's mistakes as both Angel and Angelus...as Angelus he creates his vampire children in his own image (first Pell, then Spike), and he attempts to recreate himself in the Master's - to be better than the Master, nastier.

It's a theme Whedon is particularly fond of - since he plays with the same theme in Doctor Horrible and Dollhouse...in different ways.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Moving to a Doylist level: I think what disturbs some viewers, including our host, is that the narrative itself in a way supports Angel's decision because once the spell is broken in Origin, and Connor has both sets of memories available again, he still is better off for what Angel did. (Connor v.3?) He expresses some reservations but he also says he gets why Angel did it. (Wesley, too, after regaining his memories.) And if you as a viewer consider Angel's action wrong and selfishly motivated, then the show should have let either Connor be worse off and/or tell Angel what he did was wrong. If, otoh, like myself you consider what Angel did understandable (and something you might do yourself under identical circumstances), then the narrative validating Angel's decision by letting Connor-with-both-memories be better off for what Angel did is a boon instead of a disturbance.

Exactly this. I think that is the difference in the two perspectives.
Thank you. And I think it has a lot to do with..how you view memory loss and redemption. Which is difficult to define - not what you stated above, but ..why we view it this way. Why some of us saw the writing as a betrayal of moral pov, while others a validation of a moral pov. I don't know. I do know that both perspectives are equally valid - the morality here is admittedly ambiguous. And that the writers ...well, I think were equally on the fence about it. As shown in Dollhouse and unfortunately the comics. Whedon clearly was of two minds...and the text sort of reveals that. It can be read two ways.
Angel dies for his sins and takes LA and possibly Connor along with him in Not Fade Away. Would Not Fade Away have happened if Angel made a different choice?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, I saw Children of Earth.

First, I have to get this out of the way, because so many people "reacted" to the Angel bit emotionally, without reading the post carefully.

I interpreted Home a bit differently than you and others did. The thrust of my post above was how people interpret things differently and how cool that is. And I was underlining that this was an opinion based on a trigger regarding memory wiping. I have issues with that. I think I made that clear? Perhaps not?

[ie: Reminding you of your post about how :"Your friends are watching a different tv show than you are and that's okay."]

To clarify on Angel - I read it from a Macro level or big picture level not a micro or personal level. From the big picture level he wiped memories, changed the world and WRH told him that is what would happen. As Wes relates in Orion's Window - Fred may not have died, they may have gone a different path...if they still remembered.

Our memories are what we are. They define us.
When Angel removed those memories from everyone,
he changed who they were, what decisions they'd make. It is unclear whether the group signed on with WRH before or after Angel made his decision, but it is also not completely relevant.

Angel chose the easy way to save Connor not the hard one. He chose to destroy. Connor wasn't dead. He could have been saved. He might have been able to be redeemed. But instead Angel chose to change time. And in doing so he irreparably hurt others. He played God.

And as much as it may appear that he did it out of love, I don't see it that way. He made a deal. He didn't give Connor a choice. He didn't love Connor enough to give him that choice or the ability to get over his own past. Instead he re-wrote it.

And it was also pride...and arrogance and vanity. I will martyr myself to save my son. I'll give up everything. I don't deserve to be redeemed. Just like he did in IWARY - I'll play God by being the martyr. It's an abuse of power.

[elisi]

That's fair enough, I can see where you're coming from. (I thought I'd probably be able to, but I wrote my comment first thing this morning...)

Re. Children of Earth, then I tend to see that as a very good contrast (both to the Connor situation, and to Buffy in The Gift): Jack makes the other choice - the choice to save the world at the expense of a child.

And, although that is, in many ways, the right choice, it also makes him more monstrous than Angel, who is achingly human in his reactions. (Also see the Tenth Doctor.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I don't perceive Jack and Angel's choices as being comparable. Because Connor was not going to be killed, he could have been saved another or dealt with another way. Also Connor had murdered numerous people, he was a murderer. He wasn't an innocent child. It wasn't an either save Connor or save the World.

Angel's choice wasn't the same as Buffy's regarding Dawn in the gift. Dawn, a)was an innocent, b) she hadn't murdered or hurt anyone. Also Buffy had the world at stake - she sacrificed her life to save an innocent child and her world. Angel manipulated and brutally hurt others to save a mass-murderer because the boy was his son. If Connor had been anyone else, Angel would have killed him.

Re Children of Earth? I hunted down my review of the series...this was back when it aired.

http://shadowkat67.livejournal.com/450878.html

and here:

http://shadowkat67.livejournal.com/450602.html

Both Jack and Angel are monsterous in different ways. I looked at Children of Earth from a different angle.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I can't get rid of the impression that Angel's season 8 arc was a souped-up version of IWRY (but I'm afraid I can't be objective about that episode).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee, neither can I. When it comes to Angel, I'm afraid I can no longer objective - the character pushes too many of my buttons. My post above was actually about that. But people seem to have missed that for some reason? Highly frustrating.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I personally thought he was going to take a big issue in Spike's line about protecting Buffy. Actually, it's weird that none of the commenters commented on it seeing as they tend to pick on every big and small and extremely tiny "sexist" line in the show so far.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Never mind. Just read the rest of the comments and there it was. Extremely angry. I KNEW IT!! lol

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And that's why I avoid most of the comments. I just scan the visible ones...which are fairly innocuous.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I think for the AR comparison, Willow may be a better candidate for comparison since she actually had sex with Tara after various mind wipes, and never saw what the big deal was. I'd equate that to a roofie, actually. Also, didn't like how it wasn't dealt with on the show...especially considering what happened to Tara with Glory.

As for Angel...I never really got the upset over "Home," since it was the only way to save his son. I'm not a parent, but I can certainly empathize with the sentiment. As for IWRY, it was a pretty barf inducing ep for me, and I prefer not to think much of it at all, but...it wasn't Buffy specific--his actions changed everyone's day, so I can't really see it as an afront to her. It's another instance where it wasn't used to..get his way or anything, and it's portrayed as a painful thing for him because he undoes his happy day. In short, I don't see that particularly as an abuse either.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

My difficulties with Home and Angel as related to others above...and I apparently didn't clarify in my post...are very personal. Willow's memory wipes of Tara I could handle - because they were temporary. And Tabula Rasa - was just funny and also temporary, nothing changed, except Tara left Willow and Willow was called out on her behavior.

With Angel..in Home. He alters his friends and the world's memories of events, in much the same way the Monks did with Buffy's friends. Except in some respects this is far worse...because they lose the lessons they learned. We learn from other's mistakes. And one memory unravels others.

For me, memory manipulation is a huge trigger. Our memories are who we are. To remove memories from someone changes them. It's similar to a lobotomy.
To me that's a rape.

It felt like Angel rewrote Connor to be the son he wanted, the son he would be proud of, instead of the son that he felt guilty about, ashamed of, and had to put in prison or kill. I'm not sure that's really love. At any rate, that's what bothered me.

The post was really about how we see things differently and why. Thank you so much for your response. You clearly understood the thrust of my post and I highly appreciate it!

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Willow's memory wipes of Tara I could handle - because they were temporary. And Tabula Rasa - was just funny and also temporary, nothing changed, except Tara left Willow and Willow was called out on her behavior.

But Willow has sex with Tara after the mind wipes. TR was a temporary mind wipe because the stone is broken, but I don't believe Tara got back the many other memory wipes that Willow did to her. In OMWF, we see a nice little pile of Lethe's Bramble on their dresser, and I don't think if Tara had all of her memories, she would have gone to bed with a smile on her face. Her consent to sex was gone, so to me, that's why it's a bigger violation. That's all.

Thank you so much for your response. You clearly understood the thrust of my post and I highly appreciate it!

No problem. Thanks for sharing the post :) It's nice to click on a rec'd link and not have it be f-locked.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah, see the sex bit doesn't bug me. I can see why it may bug others...it just never bothered me that much. While Angel rewriting people's history to suit himself ...seems to really bug me. Sex is temporary. You get over it. But you don't get over losing your memories and yourself.

I think Tara more or less said this to Willow - it was the tampering with her mental state that made it difficult for her to be with Willow, particularly after what Glory had done.

People shouldn't rec flocked posts...I don't think. It's sort of counter to the whole point of flocking. ;-) I mean if the person wanted the post to be rec'd, why would why they flock it?? People bewilder me. ;-)

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I haven't been around lately, but I actually wanted to say I agree with you here. This is just absolutely personal, obviously. But it always seemed to me that the worst thing Willow did was wiping Tara's memory, and whether she had sex with Tara afterward or not doesn't really change the severity of the act much. There is the roofie metaphor, and I think it is definitely there; but it doesn't seem to be the primary metaphor to me, and so the sex aspect of the mindwipe seems not to be the biggest part of it. I think that the memory erasures are as bad as or worse than rape -- already a violation -- but I don't think that the fact that Tara said "how could you violate my mind like that?/how could you do what Glory did?" rather than "how could you rape me?" is a flaw at all. I do tend to think, too, that Angel's actions in "Home" are worse for me personally because he doesn't just take one night or one argument from Connor -- he takes a whole lifetime. Willow taking the argument from Tara's mind in All the Way vs. Angel taking the day from Buffy (and others) in IWRY is, for me, a toss-up if I go objective; if I talk about my own feelings, Angel's actions still bother me more -- but that is because I think Angel really believes that what he's done is right, whereas while Willow I think somewhat buys into her own myth, I think she is on the verge of cracking up. But some of this really just is that I "get" and like Willow more than I get and like Angel, though I do get and like Angel -- it's all personal, I think.

ETA: I actually think that the fact that the Willow/Tara violation is primarily spiritual fits in with the seasonal themes. The AR is primarily physical, because Buffy and Spike are very physical beings, Buffy is "the hand", etc. Just like the alley beating is a physical action. Willow is "the spirit," so her violation is primarily spiritual. Even when she tortures Warren -- she does it without touching him.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the response.

I think it is personal. For me the spiritual violation and mental one is harder to deal with than the physical, mainly because I live in my mind more than my body and am not a physical being.

Willow was easier to handle - because what she does, while similar to Angel - Willow like Angel often chose short-cuts or called on other powers to aid her - was less permanent. What Angel does to Buffy in IWARY is permanent. He takes a day from her life. If she remembered that day..she may have acted differently towards Riley, she may have understood that a relationship with Riley may not work. Or been more careful about things. She never gets to learn. It's erased. Only Angel gets to learn and enjoy the memory. And with Home, like you stated he steals a lifetime from Connor and various memories of the boy from his friends. He does what Willow does in both Tabula Rasa and All the Way but times three. And unlike Willow - he never regrets it. He would do it again. He sees it as the "only" way or the "best" way. And attempts to stop Wes from breaking the window - which reveals all of memories to everyone.

Willow at least appears to learn from her mistakes.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Well -- Tara never does get her memories of that All the Way argument back, so in that sense it's "permanent." But she of course finds out about it -- and I don't think there's really any information that she's lost, in the way that Buffy completely loses that day of her life (and spends the next year of her life with Riley, the human version of Angel). With Connor, I think it's even worse. First of all, the new Connor that gets created ("They were supposed to fix that," Angel mentioned about wanting Connor to be rid of his attraction to older women, in Origin) really is a whole new identity -- he's not really "Connor" the guy we've seen in all the previous episodes, but a new person entirely. Second, he wipes crucial experiences from his friends' memories. Third, he completely alters the lives of Connor's new family without their consent. Fourth -- when he refuses to let the Orlon window be smashed, he also is risking his son's life, to preserve the illusion of his healthy life. Now -- I do see the other side to it. I think Angel is genuinely trying to do what he thinks is best; and on some level, he is giving Connor the life that he, Angel, wishes he could have -- it's almost noble in a way. But it's nobility that is all associated with the idea that Angel knows better than anyone else.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much how I read it as well and the reason I struggle with Angel.
Thank you for clarifying my own thoughts on the topic.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty much with you, if Spike had gone though and raped her I couldmark his actions as unforgivable but since he did not intend to do it in the fisrt place and was sorry right after she stopped him, it was never that hard for me to forgive Spike. As for Angel, I only like him when he is surrounded by pople who call him of his crap because he does tend to make bad decisions that affect otherswithout taking their opinion into consideration.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

It's kind of interesting for me to hear about shipping wars on Buffy because I think this is one show where I'm even less involved with it than usual. I mean, I enjoyed watching Buffy/Angel, but it was not a healthy relationship and so I never got very invested in it-- it was better for both characters that it failed. Buffy/Riley is probably the ideal relationship for her to have in the real world, but this is a Joss Whedon show and healthy, happy relationships are not allowed, so that had to go down (And Riley was, sadly, rather bland and boring). I don't know how I feel about Buffy/Spike; I haven't seen the later seasons so I don't know how it builds. From what I've had explained to me, I can somewhat understand the reasoning. But it's not very appealing to me emotionally, mostly because my general reaction (and this applies to Angel too) is that it is always a bad idea to date vampires if you are not also a vampire.

This goes for any mortal/immortal relationship really, but there's so many vampires in media now that it can stand on its own. Whenever I see some young girl swooning over a broody vampire guy, I just shake my head at the characters. It never works out. Interestingly, human guys don't seem to fall in love with vampire women as often-- I think the only pairing I've seen with that dynamic is Hoyt/Vampire Jessica on True Blood. But even that relationship has some major issues.

I'm actually not sure who I'd ship Buffy with, but I don't think it would be anyone on the show. It's a shame, because she goes through so much that I'd like to see her get some happiness, but as you noted before, the writers for Buffy seem to prefer will-they-won't-they drama rather than simply creating conflict through a continuing relationship.

Really the only ship I was completely behind was Willow/Oz because they were adorable, but again, happy stable relationships not allowed. Given that Seth Green left the show I think I'm mostly happy they didn't just kill him off. I enjoy watching Anya/Xander but I don't actually care about Xander as a character, so that's not as satisfying. So Buffy ends up being a really ship-free show for me. I suspect I'm probably in the minority on this one, though.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

So much of it depends on how and why you watch a show or book. You've come to the series rather late in the game and from your responses, I'm guessing, are predisposed towards the gothic horror genre or it's not really your cup of coco.

When Buffy first aired in 1997, there really wasn't that much out there like it. All the shows on now, including Harry Potter for that matter, came after. And it is very much a series of its time. The only vampire romances on tv were...well Forever Knight and The short-lived Kindred. Not a popular trope back then. Buffy set the trend more or less. I don't know how well it would do if it premired now. We're sort of at the end of the whole vampire trend - in fact I think the market has gone past its saturation point, you can always tell when they start doing parodies. In the 1990s, most horror was slasher stories like Scream or Halloween. Whedon's Buffy in a way was a reaction against that trend, he was making fun of a horror trend that was popular in the 1990s and early part of the 21st century. If you hadn't watched those films or were aware of that specific trope...you may miss a lot of things, and not understand why it was wickedly cool that Xander was the powerless and inept sidekick who lusted after Buffy but could never have her, and often had to be saved, while Buffy was the superhero and in love with the dangerous men. Back in the 1990s, it was often the other way around. Even now, to a degree, it is.

As for vampires with humans bit? It depends again on how you think - I suspect. I know my Grandmother, may she rest in peace, could not abide musicals - because seriously, who bursts out in song just walking down the street? And she found vampires silly - because they don't exist.
She preferred "realism" and "fantasy/sci-fi/horror" did not work for her. I, on the other hand,love that stuff - but I also don't view it through a literal lense, but a metaphorical one. For example? I can see a human with a vampire - why not? You can do anything you want in fantasy - it's not "real" after all, so "real world rules do not necessarily apply" - that's the fun of it. While oddly...procedurals, like CSI, Criminal Minds, NCSI, Bones...drive me crazy, because I'll think there is no way on earth anyone would do that. It's not fantasy, it takes place in reality, it is supposed to be real - but anyone knows that you can't get fingerprints off a car or a window and DNA doesn't survive in certain conditions - it breaks down. (I know a lot about criminal procedurals). Or legal shows - I'll often think, damn,
that doesn't happen, the CSI person can't arrest them. The detective can't do that. You can't approach the witness and stand next to them throughout the trial - you have to ask the judge for permission to approach. So for me? It depends on the rules of the world set up. If the show clearly is supposed to exist in our world and obey our rules, like say Bones - then if it doesn't - I'm gone. Unless of course I have no idea what the rules are or am not familiar with that area - such as say Grey's Anatomy - medical procedural shows don't bug me - because...well, I don't know a thing about medical science and I find their make-believe world weirdly comforting.

See? It's all in how you perceive it and how you look at the rules. And even what I stated above? Isn't that cut and dry..it changes depending on the series.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

Hm. It's true, I watch very, very little horror, ever. I don't mind occasional suspenseful stories, but I particularly can't watch horror movies because I have a very image-based memory and if I watch scary movies... those scary scenes will be playing over and over in my head for weeks afterwards. Even if I make a conscious effort to forget, they don't fade very well. Years later and I can still remember especially graphic scenes and shudder. Its terribly distracting and I don't like it, so I usually avoid the genre.

I suspect that due to watching it out of context, and not really knowing the genre, I'm missing a lot. Certainly it is my least favorite Joss Whedon production. Not to say that Buffy is lower quality at all, but none of the characters or themes really speak to me in the way his other work has. I've enjoyed the episodes I've seen, but I don't feel compelled to rewatch things over and over, or to really explore the deeper layers of the work. I know they're there, but mostly I just enjoy the surface.

The human/vampire thing... it makes sense that Buffy was one of the first to do that, although it does feel very odd in the current vampire-saturated world. And within a fictional world, I don't have a problem with the idea itself, precisely. What I mean is that from a meta standpoint, the narrative of an immortal/mortal story is pretty much never going to work out. Whether it's fairy tales about fae creatures seducing humans, or a vampire/human relationship, or really anything else (The Dream/Nada relationship in Sandman comes to mind)... almost always the relationship ends in tragedy. So I have a hard time getting invested in those kinds of situations, because I spend the entire time waiting for the horrible thing that will inevitably break them apart. It's hard for me to support the characters getting involved when I just know it will all go array.

Mind you, I'm not really much for shipping anyway in most cases. I usually prefer that the characters be involved in the adventure, and not get distracted by making out. Some authors can sell me on relationships-- I recently finished reading a book where the author sold me so well on the characters that I spent the entire book hoping against hope it would all work out and the two characters would find each other and get together-- but this is a pretty rare thing for me. For the most part, I want to focus on whatever problem needs to be solved, and keep most of the romance off-screen.